---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/26/13: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:52 AM - Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK (Etienne Phillips) 2. 09:30 AM - Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK (Bill Allen) 3. 02:38 PM - kitfox /rotax 912 wiring diagram (variation on Z-16) (Sacha) 4. 08:45 PM - Re: Garmin G3X Autopliot Auto Trim with Big Trim Motor (tfarrell839) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Registering a non-TC in the UK From: Etienne Phillips Hi Peter That does help a great deal. Not really what I wanted to hear though! I'll give the LAA a shout and see what they think the chances are that my aeroplane can be imported and registered in the non-TC category. Thanks Etienne On 25 November 2013 22:58, Peter Pengilly wrote: > Etienne, > > Short version for all, longer version available off list if required (let > me know - might take a few days). > > In the UK non-TC aircraft operate on a 'Permit to Fly' issued by the CAA. > All permit aircraft are subject to a design investigation to substantiate > the basic airworthiness of the design, with the basic data supplied by th e > builder, against the relevant airworthiness code - for example CS-VLA or > CS23. Compliance must be shown with all of the requirements, but some > non-compliance is often tolerated. The level of evidence required is > typically less than a TC design - exact amount probably depends on CAA > surveyor assigned. Fees are charged for surveyor time - I believe around > =A3250 per hour. > > For amateur built aircraft the most straight forward route is to build > under the supervision of the Light Aircraft Association. Their engineerin g > department approves designs - to CS-VLA or CS23 as appropriate - and a te am > of several hundred inspectors around the country oversees build projects > and provides stage inspections. No deviations from 'approved' plans are > permitted without approval - the infamous 'mod' process. Fees are much > lower than CAA - =A3300 to register a kit built project, =A3600 when appl ying > for first permit to fly, most inspectors only charge expenses. However on ly > aircraft up to 260hp, (I think) 2700lb max weight, 4 seats max and max > 60mph stall speed are covered, aircraft must also be built for education > and recreation of builder - no professional builds. There is also a 51% > rule. All aircraft limited to day VFR. Old TC aircraft, where no TC holde r > exists, are also being transferred to LAA permits as CAA doesn't want to > know. Annual permit renewal fee of around =A3200. > > Imports that were built outside the UK are permitted, but must be built > exactly to drawing (detailed survey required) and engine must have been > signed off by someone certified to do so - ideally a repair station. The > import process takes a long time. > > For a broken TC aeroplane, the owner would have to convince LAA Eng that > they should take on the aeroplane, LAA would in turn have to seek > permission from CAA as its not an amateur built. I suspect if it could be > restored to TC standard then CAA would insist it is and would not allow t he > permit route - but difficult to tell for unusual cases. They may insist o n > CAA permit route with the costs involved. > > Hope this is of interest to some. > > Peter > > Do not archive > > > On 25/11/2013 06:07, Etienne Phillips wrote: > > Hi All > > After seeing that there are a number of members on this list in the UK > and operating non-TC aircraft, I would like to find out what the process is > really like registering a non type-certified aircraft in the UK. I realis e > this isn't an electrics problem, so any replies can be off-list. > > I've read through the regulations, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't > look like an onerous process. However, the rumours are that one would be > better served by repeatedly bashing one's head against a concrete lintel! > > The history of my aircraft is that it started it's life as a TC Champion > Citabria 7ECA. It was then flown into a tree, and broken rather badly. Th e > subsequent re-build was done here in South Africa, where the aircraft was > registered as an experimental, non-TC aircraft with a number of > modifications from the original design (bungy undercarriage, no upholster y, > raised belly to remove the pregnant look...). > > Clearly, this isn't an existing "approved design" by the UK CAA's > standards, it's not a kit, and it's not a TC with a different label on it .. > I've heard from the grapevine that I would need to get all the > modifications that have been done since it was in a TC state approved > individually, but I would like to confirm that it is the case, or if ther e > is an alternative, more suitable route to follow...? > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks > Etienne > > > * > =========== m> ldersbooks.com> .com> com> om/contribution> =========== www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Registering a non-TC in the UK From: Bill Allen Hi Etienne, I'm involved with the LAA (and the PFA before it) and watched some years ago while a buddy was made to jump through hoops (full structural load tests) over importation of a US made VariEze. I also know of a case whereby a Cyprus built Rutan Defiant was imported into the UK and the guy tried to get a Permit to Fly from the CAA. He supplied copious data, but was tripped at the final hurdle when he could not produce the records of the "PPM dust contaminate for each structural layup". Your aircraft is "neither fish nor fowl" and although you may not find anyone in authority man enough to say "you're wasting your time" you will find people suggesting that you apply in writing to formalise your request etc etc. The strategy seems to be one of "when we have exhausted him with a long series of requests, he will go away, but we can never be accused of actually denying a request" Bear in mind that an administrator never lost his job for preventing something happening, but could loose employment by approving something which later turned out to be an embarrassment. They have no incentive to help you. If you enjoy crusades, have a go, but if you hold in mind that "your time is our life, and your life is your time" maybe you could burn your time in more fun and productive ways... Just my take on it have been round that racetrack for a few laps. best, Bill Allen LongEz 160 N99BA FD51 CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ On 25 November 2013 08:07, Etienne Phillips wrote: > Hi All > > After seeing that there are a number of members on this list in the UK and > operating non-TC aircraft, I would like to find out what the process is > really like registering a non type-certified aircraft in the UK. I realise > this isn't an electrics problem, so any replies can be off-list. > > I've read through the regulations, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't > look like an onerous process. However, the rumours are that one would be > better served by repeatedly bashing one's head against a concrete lintel! > > The history of my aircraft is that it started it's life as a TC Champion > Citabria 7ECA. It was then flown into a tree, and broken rather badly. The > subsequent re-build was done here in South Africa, where the aircraft was > registered as an experimental, non-TC aircraft with a number of > modifications from the original design (bungy undercarriage, no upholstery, > raised belly to remove the pregnant look...). > > Clearly, this isn't an existing "approved design" by the UK CAA's > standards, it's not a kit, and it's not a TC with a different label on it. > I've heard from the grapevine that I would need to get all the > modifications that have been done since it was in a TC state approved > individually, but I would like to confirm that it is the case, or if there > is an alternative, more suitable route to follow...? > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks > Etienne > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:08 PM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: kitfox /rotax 912 wiring diagram (variation on Z-16) Hi Folks, I've finished a CAD drawing of the electrical diagram such as it currently exists on my Rotax 912 powered Kitfox (Kitfox Diagram 0.6.pdf/dwg). >From reading through Bob's materials and from previous exchanges on the list, I've come up with the following changes which I think are pretty standard: - Eliminate the Master CB (I had put it there following the diagram in the Rotax installation manual) - Make the Avionics bus the E-bus and feed it via a diode instead of via the Avionics Master Switch - Eliminate the Avionics CB and Avionics Master Switch and use the switch as an Alternate Feed for the E-bus - Eliminate the Alternator Light and rewire it as a "Starter On Warning Light" - Create a Battery bus for things like clock, panel lighting, etc This leads to Kitfox Proposed Diagram 1.23.pdf/dwg which I am submitting for comments/suggestions. It's essentially a version of Z-16 with the following differences: - Ignition is via a momentary push-button whereas the Off/BAT/BAT+ALT modes are selected via an On-OFF-On Key switch. This is more of an inheritance than a conscious choice. if I had to do things again I'd probably use the S700-2-10 switch as per Z-16 and the Key Switch for the mags. - A starter ON warning light was fitted - The low/high voltage monitoring is achieved via a LED with a tiny voltage sensitive auto-dimming circuit (Eclipse, sold by Sparkbright in the UK for approx $15). This is green when the main bus voltage is between 13.2 and 15.2 volts, and various combinations of amber, alternating green and red or flashing red for over or under-voltage conditions. Sparkbright claims the calibration is better than 0.03 volts and I have not been able to disprove this. - There are some extra features represented (such as the wiring of the two joysticks (Infinity Grips, Infinity Aerospace) and the extra 22,000 uF capacitor for the fuel pump (as per Rotax installation manual). I've also attached a load analysis (Load Analysis.xls). Thanks in advance for your comments! Regards, Sacha ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin G3X Autopliot Auto Trim with Big Trim Motor From: "tfarrell839" Any thoughts on using transistors in this setup instead of relays? Thanks, Tim -------- Tim Farrell Aircrafters 831-722-9141 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414229#414229 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.