Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:54 AM - Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks (Jeff Luckey)
3. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: kitfox /rotax 912 wiring diagram (variation on Z-16) (Sacha)
4. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks (Jeff Luckey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
At 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
Hi,
I read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders had their starter
contractor weld shut.
I am using a Cole Hersee
24047 http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's
what Lancair supplies)
Would it be worth upgrading to a Lamar
X61-0030 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php ?
Make current would go from 750 to 900A and Break current from 100 to 300A
Thanks for your insight!
Happy Thanksgiving,
Giorgio
---------------------------------------------
With all due respect to a staid ol' supplier
of electro-whizzies, this particular 'intermittent
duty' contactor was never well suited to use as a
starter contactor.
RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions of the
Model 70 contactor are also available in an
intermittent duty version (higher coil current
and somewhat enhanced closure forces). Cessna
use to use the intermittent duty versions too on
the starter side . . . . wayyyyyy back when.
The "problem" is centered around the design
of contacts . . .
----------------------------------------------
The Cole-Hersee device is in the same family of contactors as
the 70 Series White-Rogers devices designed for continuous duty,
high carry-current and the switching of moderate loads.
http://tinyurl.com/koq788n
Here's an 'exploded view' for this class of contactor
http://tinyurl.com/mjndr93
Note the massive moving contact with LARGE area, hence LOW PRESSURE
footprint against the stationary contacts. This design will CARRY
lots of current but bounces like a golf ball. Especially vulnerable
to the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat inductive loads . . . like
starter motors.
http://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j
http://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj
Nice stationary contacts integrated with fat-wire studs . . .
http://tinyurl.com/k5674y9
"REAL" starter contactors have features unique to a device
specifically designed for intermittent duty switching of
large loads loads.
http://tinyurl.com/mmvkmeh
http://tinyurl.com/kcme565
Note the light weight moving contact with very small footprint
against the stationary contacts . . . very low mass . . . very
little bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE.
http://tinyurl.com/lgsmf77
Again, stationary contacts are integral with fat-wire studs.
http://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4
Note evidence of small area, high pressure mating of movable and
stationary contacts . . .
http://tinyurl.com/krnf3n5
http://tinyurl.com/k582728
I am surprised to know that Lancair is offering that Cole-Hersee
product for this application. I did a weekend seminar at Lancair
some years back and we talked about characteristics of the two
kinds of contactors in some detail. The 'real' starter contactor
was a prominent character in the relays/switches/contactors segment
of the seminar.
Feel free to forward this email to the Lancair-List and even
directly to Lancair. The problems associated with mis-application
of this particular C-H contactor were predictable . . . but easy
to fix.
Cole-Hersee has a 'later' design that MIGHT be better
suited to task than the current selection
http://tinyurl.com/mxer975
But the architecture appears to be an evolution of the earlier
designs . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if this
device exploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low mass,
high pressure contacts.
I would suggest that the Lancair community consider replacing
the existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533
starter contactor with built in diode suppression.
http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa
Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . .
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
Bob,=0A=0AI have googled a fair amount but have been unable to find a real
spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533.- I find random references to a coil-s
uppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifically describes the
solenoid & diode.- You'd think with such a popular device the spec sheet
would be easier to find.- Do you have one?=0A=0AI have one of these solen
oids and when I energize the coil w/ a jumper wire I get more arcing when I
remove the coil lead than I see on other solenoids where I have installed
a suppression diode.- It's not a very conclusive test but it is possible
that my solenoid does not have a diode.=0A=0AAlso, that solenoid also has a
n "I" terminal that could be used to light a "starter engaged" light.-
=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L.
Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: Giorgio Cagliero <gc5
000@gmail.com>; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November
28, 2013 10:53 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cole-Hersee relay stic
II" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AAt 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
=0AHi,=0A=0AI read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders had their s
tarter contractor weld shut.=0AI am using a Cole Hersee 24047- http://www
.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's what Lancair supplies)=0A
=0AWould it be worth upgrading to a Lamar X61-0030- http://www.aircraftsp
ruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php- ?=0A=0AMake current would g
o from 750 to 900A and Break current from 100 to 300A=0A=0AThanks for your
insight!=0A=0AHappy Thanksgiving,=0A=0AGiorgio=0A--------------------------
-------------------=0A- - With all due respect to a staid ol' supplier
=0A- - of electro-whizzies, this particular 'intermittent=0A- - dut
y' contactor was never well suited to use as a=0A- - starter contactor.
=0A=0A- - RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions of the=0A- - Model 7
0 contactor are also available in an=0A- - intermittent duty version (h
igher coil current=0A- - and somewhat enhanced closure forces).- Cess
na=0A- - use to use the intermittent duty versions too on=0A- - the
starter side . . . . wayyyyyy back when.=0A=0A- - The "problem" is cen
tered around the design=0A- - of contacts . . .=0A=0A------------------
----------------------------=0AThe Cole-Hersee device is in the same family
of contactors as=0Athe 70 Series White-Rogers devices designed for continu
ous duty,=0Ahigh carry-current and the switching of moderate loads.=0A=0Aht
tp://tinyurl.com/koq788n=0A=0AHere's an 'exploded view' for this class of c
ontactor=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/mjndr93=0A=0ANote the massive moving conta
ct with LARGE area, hence LOW PRESSURE=0Afootprint against the stationary c
ontacts. This design will CARRY=0Alots of current but bounces like a golf b
all. Especially vulnerable=0Ato the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat induct
ive loads . . . like=0Astarter motors.=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j=0A
=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj=0A=0ANice stationary contacts integrated with
fat-wire studs . . .=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/k5674y9=0A=0A"REAL" starter c
ontactors have features unique to a device=0Aspecifically designed for inte
rmittent duty switching of=0Alarge loads loads.=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/mmv
kmeh=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/kcme565=0A=0ANote the light weight moving cont
act with very small footprint=0Aagainst the stationary contacts . . . very
low mass . . . very=0Alittle bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE.=0A=0Ahttp:/
/tinyurl.com/lgsmf77=0A=0AAgain, stationary contacts are integral with fat-
wire studs.=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4=0A=0ANote evidence of small are
a, high pressure mating of movable and stationary contacts . . .=0A=0Ahttp:
//tinyurl.com/krnf3n5=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/k582728=0A=0AI am surprised t
o know that Lancair is offering that Cole-Hersee=0Aproduct for this applica
tion. I did a weekend seminar at Lancair=0Asome years back and we talked ab
out characteristics of the two=0Akinds of contactors in some detail. The 'r
eal' starter contactor=0Awas a prominent character in the relays/switches/c
ontactors segment=0Aof the seminar.=0A=0AFeel free to forward this email to
the Lancair-List and even=0Adirectly to Lancair. The problems associated w
ith mis-application=0Aof this particular C-H contactor were predictable . .
. but easy=0Ato fix.=0A=0ACole-Hersee has a 'later' design that MIGHT be b
etter=0Asuited to task than the current selection=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/m
xer975=0A=0ABut the architecture appears to be an evolution of the earlier
=0Adesigns . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if this=0Adevice e
xploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low mass,=0Ahigh pressur
e contacts.=0A=0AI would suggest that the Lancair community consider replac
ing=0Athe existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533=0Asta
rter contactor with built in diode suppression.=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/pee
3msa=0A=0ADesigned for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . .=0A=0A
=========================0A
=====================
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox /rotax 912 wiring diagram (variation |
on Z-16)
Joe and Bob,
Thanks a lot for your comments.
I'm pleased that you've taken a run at the AutoCAD flavored gauntlet!
Yup, it was worth it in the end. not just for my personal education, but
also when you have to re-draw the same diagram several times.
As you evolve your plan for this airplane, consider refining
your drawings to be less like schematics and more like wiring
diagrams. If you study the drawings I've posted you will discover
that they look more like the sketch on the left where the
END of each wire, i.e. the location of each termination is defined
both electrically and physically.
Good point - it had occurred to me that that was a good idea but I haven't
got around to doing it yet.
The battery bus is generally located very close to the
battery contactor. Feeder from the battery to battery
bus is short and no protection is necessary.
OK, will remove the fuselink.
Your e-bus loads include a lot of stuff that seems
to go beyond the needs for en route, battery only
endurance. In other words, what is the minimalist
suite of electro-whizzies needed to navigate to
a point of destination airport in sight. After that,
your arrival in one piece is assured . . . you
can close the battery contactor and tax what ever
energy remains in the battery without adding to
your risks.
I thought about this a lot before I stuck all that stuff on the E-bus.
strictly speaking I don't need:
- Transponder/Alt encoder
- Autopilot
- AHRS
- Cigar Lighter 12V and USB supplies
But it's nice to be able to have them (e.g. if you're going to be landing in
a field that's new to you, you can have the A/P on while you look at the
chart, etc), so I figured I would leave them there and turn them off if
necessary (except for the AHRS but that only consumes 0.3A). Is this not
advisable? (I'm a low time PPL so I'm completely open to suggestions in this
area).
Consider re-assigning supply points for some
of the items on the avionics bus.
The breaker in the alternator b-lead can be
replaced with an in-line, fuse holder . . .
By replaced, do you mean I should add a fuse between the Dynamo and the
Voltage regulator? I don't currently have a fuse on the b-lead, I don't
think.
Emacs!
and 30A fuse. The b-lead fuse can then
be located right next to the battery's
connection with the battery contactor.
I'm confused. I thought the b-lead is wire that goes between the dynamo and
the voltage regulator. How can it be connected to the battery contactor?
The 5A "alternator breaker" is actually
a CONTROL breaker included to accommodate
the crowbar OV protection system.
That was the idea. I think I was looking at Z-17 when I positioned the ALT
breaker. But as Joe correctly remarks, it seems to limiting the current
that the dynamo can supply to the battery, which is not a good idea. I need
to re-think this part of the diagram.
Not sure stick-grip starter buttons are a good
idea . . .
I incorporated them following the suggestions on the Infinity Grip order
form (http://www.infinityaerospace.com/gripwire.pdf) and against the better
judgment of my expert friend who helped me with the wiring. I thought it
might be a good idea to have them handy in case of an engine failure in
order to attempt a restart. But in hindsight, it was maybe not such a great
idea. There is also the potential, any time the master is on on the ground,
to accidentally hit the starter button and swing the prop.
Joe> It is only a matter of time before the start button is accidentally
pushed when the engine is already running.
I'm not so concerned about this. It seems to happen on cars every now and
then and not do much in terms of damage.
but if you do incorporate them
into the system, make sure your starter
contactor coil currents are not overly
antagonistic to the switches. As I outlined
in my essay on two-stage, starter-mounted
solenoids, the pull-in currents carried
buy the starter button are pretty scary . . .
hence the advice for a stand-alone, automotive
starter contactor with MUCH more benign
current draws . . . but even these are on
the order of 5A . . . and should probably
be wired with 20AWG wire to insure strong
pull-in. Contactors are most abused by soggy
pull-in current. More contactors have been
burned up by nearly dead batteries than by
healthy, fully charged batteries.
My diagram shows two stages: the pushbutton(s) which closes the starter
contactor coil circuit which activates the starter. Is this not as per your
recommendation?
Recommend you use panel mounted, robust
button only and wire with 20AWG wire from
a protected feeder . . . you don't show a
'starter' breaker or fuse.
I will include a starter breaker/fuse.
By the way, (this is a followup from a previous thread on contactors), I
managed to solder some 4AWG wire onto the 3/8" faston female connectors so
that I can connect my battery to the automotive cube relay and use it as a
master relay as per the proposed diagram. Attached is a picture of the
result.
it's not the best example of workmanship, but it seems robust enough to me
(though this may be difficult to judge from the picture). It will now be
covered in shrink tubing for strain relief.
Looks like a great starting point . . . let's
continue to discuss its refinement.
Thank you. as usual your help is much appreciated.
Sacha
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
At 03:57 PM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>I have googled a fair amount but have been unable to find a real
>spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533. I find random references to a
>coil-suppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifically
>describes the solenoid & diode. You'd think with such a popular
>device the spec sheet would be easier to find. Do you have one?
No . . . but if the diode is included, it will
be noted on the base-plate. Here's the bottom
view photo of the ebay offering
http://tinyurl.com/klumbjp
You can see the words "diode suppressed"
stamped onto the bottom surface.
>I have one of these solenoids and when I energize the coil w/ a
>jumper wire I get more arcing when I remove the coil lead than I see
>on other solenoids where I have installed a suppression diode. It's
>not a very conclusive test but it is possible that my solenoid does
>not have a diode.
Add one outside. Two diodes is not bad;
no diodes not so good . . .
>Also, that solenoid also has an "I" terminal that could be used to
>light a "starter engaged" light.
Yes, the I terminal is intended to bypass a Kettering
coil resistor to offer better spark during cranking.
I'm not aware of any other use of this terminal . . .
but you are correct, it provides a +output that could
drive the warning light.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
Does anyone have any quality control feedback for the EBay units Bob refere
nces. $9.95 is a very low price and I worry that these are cheap Chinese kn
ock-offs.=0A=0AI see in several Ford truck forums that there are many compl
aints about cheap Chinese parts.- Most people in the Ford forums suggest
going w/ Motorcraft/OEM parts at around $30.=0A=0AIs there any way to tell
the difference between the cheapos & the real thing??=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@
aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday,
November 28, 2013 6:34 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cole-Hersee
Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AAt 03:57 PM 11/28/2013,
you wrote:=0A> Bob,=0A> =0A> I have googled a fair amount but have been un
able to find a real spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533.- I find random re
ferences to a coil-suppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifi
cally describes the solenoid & diode.- You'd think with such a popular de
vice the spec sheet would be easier to find.- Do you have one?=0A=0A- N
o . . . but if the diode is included, it will=0A- be noted on the base-pl
ate.- Here's the bottom=0A- view photo of the ebay offering=0A=0Ahttp:/
/tinyurl.com/klumbjp=0A=0A- You can see the words "diode suppressed"=0A
- stamped onto the bottom surface.=0A=0A> I have one of these solenoids a
nd when I energize the coil w/ a jumper wire I get more arcing when I remov
e the coil lead than I see on other solenoids where I have installed a supp
ression diode.- It's not a very conclusive test but it is possible that m
y solenoid does not have a diode.=0A=0A- Add one outside. Two diodes is
not bad;=0A- no diodes not so good . . .=0A=0A=0A> Also, that solenoid a
lso has an "I" terminal that could be used to light a "starter engaged" lig
ht.=0A=0A- Yes, the I terminal is intended to bypass a Kettering=0A-
coil resistor to offer better spark during cranking.=0A- I'm not aware o
f any other use of this terminal . . .=0A- but you are correct, it provi
des a +output that could=0A- drive the warning light.=0A=0A=0A- Bob .
==============
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