---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/14/13: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:19 AM - Re: Strobe Noise (Ken) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Strobe Noise (Jared Yates) 3. 06:18 AM - Re: Speaking of physics . . . (jan) 4. 08:25 AM - IVO Prop Current Limiter (Dennis & Anne Glaeser) 5. 09:38 AM - Re: Strobe Noise (Ken) 6. 01:46 PM - Re: Physics... (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 7. 02:46 PM - Re: Speaking of physics . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Physics... (Henador Titzoff) 9. 03:52 PM - for physics lovers -- physics carols -- not aircraft related (Arthur Glaser) 10. 06:21 PM - Re: Speaking of physics . . . (Roger & Jean) 11. 10:04 PM - Re: Speaking of physics . . . (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:02 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Noise Jared I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in line with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still faintly hear it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing. Ken On 13/12/2013 9:36 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > > Hello Bob, I've just recently started flying my Z13/8 Bearhawk, which has a steel tube fuselage and aluminum wings. I'm getting a little bit of noise in the headsets from the Aeroflash strobes. I wonder if you or the other list readers can help me narrow down where to look for the source. The system that I installed uses a power pack in each wingtip. The part of the strobe that flashes is in a combination unit that has incandescent position lights, both red/green and aft-facing white. I've replaced the incandescent bulbs with LEDs. I routed power to the strobes from the main bus, via an unshielded conductor, in a bundle out to each wingtip. They are grounded to the airframe locally at the tips. My audio and mic jacks are isolated from the aircraft ground and in shielded cables. The noise that I get is the same regardless of the volume position on the Flightcom 403 intercom or the Garmin 430. It sounds a little bit like a capacitor charging, sort of a "twe-tweeee"! o! > f increasing pitch that comes with every flash. It's faint enough that I can hear it on the ground and while taxiing, but once I get up to cruise speed and power it is drowned out. As such, it's not the end of the world if I can't get rid of it, but I thought it was worth looking into. Thanks in advance for any tips you might have. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Noise From: Jared Yates Thanks Ken, do you remember anything about how you selected the filter, such as what it would be used in or where you got it from? On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Ken wrote: > > Jared > I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in line > with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still faintly hear > it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing. > Ken > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:38 AM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . Rick, Very interesting analysis .. one point to consider .. You could also say that you have two sorts of 'builder/pilots' ... Ones than like to build more than to fly ... And the ones that like to fly more than they build ... After all ... we all look for pleasure in many ways .... :-) Jan Do not archive _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: 14 December 2013 00:58 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . Someone, I know not who, once said there are two kinds of airplanes, perfect airplanes and those that fly. I once saw a Long EZ fuselage on which the builder had spent 16 years addressing every little whim he'd ever had about the perfect Long EZ. He died without ever seeing it take to the air. When I saw it, it was on its way to its third owner and still had no wings or canard. The step that deployed automatically with the canopy opening was pretty cool, though. Rick Girard do not archive On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Jeff Luckey > wrote: Bob, Your cursory and simplified analysis of the dynamics of switch vibration neither has sufficient data nor analysis to draw any conclusions. (I don't think you intended it to) Therefore it neither confirms nor refutes the suggestion that sliders are used because they handle vibration better in RC applications. Let's talk about "..loose items ..": I know you are not saying that the idea of "..loose items in the cockpit.." is impossible. In other words, I believe we agree that it is possible for foreign objects to get stuck in bad places. However, you seem to be rather dismissive of the ideas I have put forward. The crux of your argument seems to be based on the likelihood of a particular bad event. Therein lies the problem - how to derive the likelihood. I suppose one could scour NTSB accident records to search for incidents of bad thing X happening. (But that requires a larger amount of effort than most of us are willing or able to put forth. There are other considerations in doing research of this nature - suffice it to say it is not a trivial task) Therefore, in the absence of a probability for an event that is perhaps unlikely but not impossible, I offer the following idea: If there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be taken to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is statistically remote (or the statistics are unknown), then why not take that action? The "why not" question is important because even seemingly benign solutions have pros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to be worse than the disease. I ask that "why not..." question a lot and lately have been getting less than satisfying answers. -Jeff _____ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 10:12 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . > At 05:26 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote: > > > Hi Bob > Any particular one which is relevant to aero electrics? There are 567 hits for Walter Lewin lectures on the site... > Sacha ALL are relevant. EVERY discipline reduced to the most fundamental components will invariably illustrate principals of motion, force, friction, dissipation of energy, radiation, behaviors of materials, etc. etc. I invoked a sampling of these ideas in our consideration of risk for "loose items in cockpit" causing near catastrophic events and a consideration of likelihood that a slide switch is more resistant to vibration than a toggle switch. A great deal of what passes for considered decision making is based on conclusions unsupported by the simple-ideas in physics. Much of what I did during my last years at Beech was to discover the constellation of operating simple-ideas responsible for failure to perform . . . troubleshooting down to the lowest common denominator. A solid grounding in physics is the cornerstone of virtually every other discipline . . . the whole universe and every system within runs on simpe Support Your Lists This Month get="_blank" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/ ">www.aeroelectric.com www.mypilotstList Contribution Web -========================= _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com ank">www.mrrace.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx

Rick,

 

Very interesting analysis .. one point to consider .. You could also say that you have two sorts of ‘builder/pilots’ …

 

Ones than like to build more than to fly …

 

And the ones that like to fly more than they build …

 

After all … we all look for pleasure in many ways ….  J

 

Jan

 

Do not archive

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: 14 December 2013 00:58
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . .

 

Someone, I know not who, once said there are two kinds of airplanes, perfect airplanes and those that fly. I once saw a Long EZ fuselage on which the builder had spent 16 years addressing every little whim he'd ever had about the perfect Long EZ. He died without ever seeing it take to the air. When I saw it, it was on its way to its third owner and still had no wings or canard. The step that deployed automatically with the canopy opening was pretty cool, though.

 

Rick Girard

do not archive

 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:

Bob,

Your cursory and simplified analysis of the dynamics of switch vibration neither has sufficient data nor analysis to draw any conclusions. (I don't think you intended it to) Therefore it neither confirms nor refutes the suggestion that sliders are used because they handle vibration better in RC applications.

Let's talk about "..loose items ..":

I know you are not saying that the idea of "..loose items in the cockpit.." is impossible. In other words, I believe we agree that it is possible for foreign objects to get stuck in bad places.  However, you seem to be rather dismissive of the ideas I have put forward.   The crux of your argument seems to be based on the likelihood of a particular bad event.

Therein lies the problem - how to derive the likelihood. I suppose one could scour NTSB accident records to search for incidents of bad thing X happening.  (But that requires a larger amount of effort than most of us are willing or able to put forth. There are other considerations in doing research of this nature - suffice it to say it is not a trivial task)

Therefore, in the absence of a probability for an event that is perhaps unlikely but not impossible, I offer the following idea:            

If there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be taken to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is statistically remote (or the statistics are unknown), then why not take that action?

The "why not" question is important because even seemingly benign solutions have pros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to be worse than the disease.  I ask that "why not..." question a lot and lately have been getting less than satisfying answers.

-Jeff

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 10:12 AM


Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . .


--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>

At 05:26 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Bob
> Any particular one which is relevant to aero electrics? There are 567 hits for Walter Lewin lectures on the site...
> Sacha

  ALL are relevant.

  EVERY discipline reduced to the most fundamental
  components will invariably illustrate principals
  of motion, force, friction, dissipation of energy,
  radiation, behaviors of materials, etc. etc.

  I invoked a sampling of these ideas in our consideration
  of risk for "loose items in cockpit" causing near
  catastrophic events and a consideration of likelihood
  that a slide switch is more resistant to vibration than
  a toggle switch.

  A great deal of what passes for considered decision
  making is based on conclusions unsupported by the simple-ideas
  in physics. Much of what I did during my last years
  at Beech was to discover the constellation of operating
  simple-ideas responsible for failure to perform . . .
  troubleshooting down to the lowest common denominator.

  A solid grounding in physics is the cornerstone
  of virtually every other discipline . . . the whole

  universe and every system within runs on simpe Support Your Lists This Month get="_blank" href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.comwww.mypilotstList Contribution Web -======================== ==





 
 
_blank">www.aeroelec
tric.com
.com" 
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www
.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www
.mypilotstore.com
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o:p>
_blank">http://www.m
atronics.com/contribution
ist" 
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroEl
ectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com



 

--

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
  - Groucho Marx

 

 
 
www.aeroelectric.com

www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
www.mypilotstore.com

www.mrrace.com
http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: IVO Prop Current Limiter From: Dennis & Anne Glaeser I was the requester for that design. I built it, tested it, and used it for the last few years. Works perfectly! I recently upgraded to an MT prop, so I sold the IVO along with the current limiter. I don't know if that plane is flying yet. Dennis Glaeser ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:54 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Noise Jared The filter was intended for car radios. A black plastic cylinder with 3 leads - IN, OUT, Ground. There are several on ebay for around $6. but I suspect they are easy to find at automotive suppliers especially if they do radio installs. Here's one: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-NOISE-FILTER-HUM-KILLER-ENGINE-SUPRESSOR-POWER-WIRE-/260741326774?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb564e7b6&vxp=mtr Ken On 14/12/2013 8:44 AM, Jared Yates wrote: > Thanks Ken, do you remember anything about how you selected the filter, > such as what it would be used in or where you got it from? > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Ken > wrote: > > > > > Jared > I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in > line with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still > faintly hear it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing. > Ken > > * > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:37 PM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Physics... I sometimes recall, from my long-ago days at MIT, the tongue-in-cheek last question on the final exam from 8.03 ' third semester Physics: Given: f=ma e=mc=B2 Maxwell=92s equations Derive: Everything Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair 540 hrs since 11/08 Web Site Link ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . At 06:17 PM 12/13/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >Your cursory and simplified analysis of the dynamics of switch >vibration neither has sufficient data nor analysis to draw any >conclusions. (I don't think you intended it to) Therefore it neither >confirms nor refutes the suggestion that sliders are used because >they handle vibration better in RC applications. Okay, what is the counter-argument for the effects of vibration in the system of levers and masses? What are the forcing functions that would separate a pair of toggle switch contacts undergoing vibration? If I am in error, nobody is more interested in knowing than me . . . Prof Lewin once offered the idea that bad teaching is a form of criminal behavior. It's a matter of personal satisfaction and moral imperative that a teacher strive for the best. >Let's talk about "..loose items ..": > >I know you are not saying that the idea of "..loose items in the >cockpit.." is impossible. In other words, I believe we agree that it >is possible for foreign objects to get stuck in bad >places. However, you seem to be rather dismissive of the ideas I >have put forward. The crux of your argument seems to be based on >the likelihood of a particular bad event. Not at all. The outcome of damage to multiple wires by burning due to electrical fault was founded on the notion that some loose, conductive item could become lodged between source and ground with conductivity that would burn a bus feeder. All the metal pens I've seen were light, thin walled and poor conductors. Walking up to a bus bar with malicious intent armed with a metallic writing instrument is like bringing a cork gun to a gunfight. Yes, there's going to be sparks, smoke, heat and probably burned fingers with little or no damage to the bus or its feeder. The fact that such feeders tend to "eat holes" in their antagonists with little or no risk to the feeder or functions that it energizes is the foundation for policies articulated in the FARS and decades-old industry practice for over a quarter million light aircraft produced in this country alone. >Therein lies the problem - how to derive the likelihood. I suppose >one could scour NTSB accident records to search for incidents of bad >thing X happening. (But that requires a larger amount of effort >than most of us are willing or able to put forth. There are other >considerations in doing research of this nature - suffice it to say >it is not a trivial task) . . . and based on my experience, analysis and observations I'll suggest that you will not find such an event in the NTSB records . . . I have oft repeated the observation that only an exceedingly small number of accidents have electrical systems malfunctions as proximate cause . . . and of those cases, another small fraction are based on failure to perform to design goals. When electrics fail to perform, it nearly always finds foundation in human errors of installation or maintenance. >Therefore, in the absence of a probability for an event that is >perhaps unlikely but not impossible, I offer the following idea: > >If there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be >taken to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is >statistically remote (or the statistics are unknown), then why not >take that action? As you wish . . . but how far do you carry this line of reasoning? Would it be a good idea to build a cage around the prop . . . a guard on a fuel selector valve to guard against accidentally kicking it? How about warning lights on the fuel filler caps to warn of poor sealing (had these critters siphon gas on an A36 . . . TWICE!) >The "why not" question is important because even seemingly benign >solutions have pros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to >be worse than the disease. I ask that "why not..." question a lot >and lately have been getting less than satisfying answers. I sincerely strive for my answers to be founded in the simple-ideas of physics and practical limits for guarding against the unanticipated based on lessons learned. The first time I saw this image was probably 35 years ago . . . and rather humorous at the time . . http://healthyworker.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/osha_cowboy.jpg It's interesting to contemplate what the "Engineer/ mechanic/pilot after FAA" would be decked out. Over 35+ years, the work product of those with profitable careers in worrying-on-our-behalf-for- the-greater-good have offered a constellation of mandates to address a host of 'why not?' . . . with little if any observable change in accident rates or causation for those accidents. If you find satisfaction in guarding the bus bars on your breaker panels or fusing the feeder, please do so. It would upset nobody that I'm aware of. Your airplane be fabricated to meet your design goals. I am sorry to have failed your expectations for receiving 'satisfying answers'. All I can do is offer the best I know now to do founded on a knowledge-base built on my teachers, experiences, recipes for success . . . combined with observations on experiences of others. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:12 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Physics... This is pretty funny, Dr. Andy. The most prolific thing I saw in the physics department at my college was written on one of the rest room stalls: "Is Max Planck's Constant?" Henador Titzoff -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/14/13, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Physics... To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Date: Saturday, December 14, 2013, 1:44 PM I sometimes recall, from my long-ago days at MIT, the tongue-in-cheek last question on the final exam from 8.03 third semester Physics: Given: f=ma e=mc Maxwells equations Derive: Everything Andy------------------------Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair540 hrs since 11/08Web Site Link ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:10 PM PST US From: Arthur Glaser Subject: AeroElectric-List: for physics lovers -- physics carols -- not aircraft related http://www.haverford.edu/physics/songs/carols/carols.htm ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:01 PM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . If there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be taken to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is statistically remote (or the statistics are unknown), then why not take that action? The "why not" question is important because even seemingly benign solutions have pros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to be worse than the disease. I ask that "why not..." question a lot and lately have been getting less than satisfying answers. -Jeff Sounds like you are not feeling very Lucky! ? Roger Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . . From: Fred Klein OK...so a robot walks into a bar, hops on a stool, and turns to the guy next to him..."So whazz' happenen man?..." And the guys goes into a long rant about his troubles w/ his self-centered sweetie... The robot responds, "Man...I know just how you feel...I tried to have a relationship with a MacBook...just couldn't make it work...all I ever got was 'iThis', 'iThat', 'iThis', 'iThat'..." do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.