---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/21/13: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Landing Lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Replacement Crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 10:21 AM - Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) 4. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Landing Lights (Jeff B.) 5. 11:22 AM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Tim Andres) 6. 11:32 AM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) 7. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Tim Andres) 8. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Eric Page) 9. 02:38 PM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) 10. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (rayj) 11. 03:56 PM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:01 PM - Re: Filter Boards (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 05:04 PM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) 15. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Kelly McMullen) 16. 06:49 PM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) 17. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 07:44 PM - Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups (donjohnston) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing Lights >Bob, >I have an LED cabin light that has capacitance control (ON/OFF, dim) >that picks up stray interference causing it to go into a flashing >mode uncontrollable by the ON/OFF function. The only way that I can >stop it is by pulling the fuse. >Would your 1/2 x 1/2 filter boards be appropriate for solving this annoyance? I have not the foggiest notion. Capacitance based touch switches are very low on the totem pole for reliable functionality. I'm pretty sure they'll never be part of flight hardware on a TC aircraft. They RELY on a behavior that makes them function like a little transmitter-receiver pair that's watching for a gross change in the impedance of its 'antenna' terminal. It capitalizes on a behavior that we work very hard to eliminate in other pieces of equipment and then demonstrate success with DO-160 testing. I strongly suggest that you consider an alternative control philosophy for this piece of equipment. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Replacement Crimpers At 12:19 PM 12/20/2013, you wrote: > >[quote="bakerocb"]12/20/2013 > > Hello Bill Higdon, You wrote: One thing > I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has a > simple procedure to verify the crimpers >are working properly...... > > And we can find a description of this simple procedure where???? > Crimpers that bring dies down against hard stops are generally 'golden' as long as they get fully closed each stroke. The only effect for service life that would make them unsuitable is to wear out the dies . . . and that is exceedingly unlikely in the OBAM aviation shop. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:40 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would like to get some opinions on backup power. Here's the platform details: Continental IO-550N 28v Electrical System Single battery Vertical Power VP-X Pro Grand Rapids EIS 6000 Single screen Grand Rapids HXr Dual AHRS Dual Magnetometers Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS) If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon (which should run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad with foreflight, I should be able to get on the ground in one piece (albeit, hopefully VFR). Some other builders using the VPX are utilizing the multiple power inputs on the HX display and AHRS by running a separate supply through traditional fuses/circuit breakers. The only alternate power supply I currently have in the plans is for the fuel boost pump. My logic is that's the only electrical component that needs to run to keep the plane in the air. To utilize the additional power supply lines on the HX and AHRS wouldn't be a huge undertaking but it does add more work, more wires, one more thing that could fail, etc. Just wondering what others think. Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415997#415997 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing Lights From: "Jeff B." I've also experienced two different lamp touch switches that were susceptible to ESD (static discharge). While not a significant concern when underway, you might get a failure if you touch it right after sliding across the seat. -Jeff- On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > Bob, >> I have an LED cabin light that has capacitance control (ON/OFF, dim) that >> picks up stray interference causing it to go into a flashing mode >> uncontrollable by the ON/OFF function. The only way that I can stop it is >> by pulling the fuse. >> Would your 1/2 x 1/2 filter boards be appropriate for solving this >> annoyance? >> > > I have not the foggiest notion. Capacitance based > touch switches are very low on the totem pole for > reliable functionality. I'm pretty sure they'll > never be part of flight hardware on a TC aircraft. > > They RELY on a behavior that makes them function > like a little transmitter-receiver pair that's > watching for a gross change in the impedance of > its 'antenna' terminal. It capitalizes on a behavior > that we work very hard to eliminate in other pieces > of equipment and then demonstrate success with DO-160 > testing. > > I strongly suggest that you consider an alternative > control philosophy for this piece of equipment. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: Tim Andres Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will brown out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah fire alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a resistor in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem without it. This allows me to boot one EFIS & the Garmin 430 to get my clearance and enter a flight plan before I start the engine, and provides enough basic flight instruments to get to the ground with if I lose the main bus. It also allows you to stuff that ugly EIS somewhere other than in the panel since you will have your screens up and running when you crank. I put mine in the battery compartment, and instantly dropped about 40 wires that otherwise would have had to be run to the panel. (You will seldom need to access the EIS, never in flight) I used an E-bus also, but now think that and the Aux circuit are redundant. I would also suggest you revisit your decision to use a 28 volt system on a home built, it's your decision, but you almost certainly will want to add a 12 automotive gadget of some kind ( USB /phone charger etc), and will end up having to add a converter. I'm using the above on my Cozy, and would change nothing other than lose the E-bus. My 2centavos Tim > On Dec 21, 2013, at 10:20 AM, "donjohnston" wrote: > > > I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would like to get some opinions on backup power. > > Here's the platform details: > Continental IO-550N > 28v Electrical System > Single battery > Vertical Power VP-X Pro > Grand Rapids EIS 6000 > Single screen Grand Rapids HXr > Dual AHRS > Dual Magnetometers > Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS) > > If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon (which should run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad with foreflight, I should be able to get on the ground in one piece (albeit, hopefully VFR). > > Some other builders using the VPX are utilizing the multiple power inputs on the HX display and AHRS by running a separate supply through traditional fuses/circuit breakers. The only alternate power supply I currently have in the plans is for the fuel boost pump. My logic is that's the only electrical component that needs to run to keep the plane in the air. > > To utilize the additional power supply lines on the HX and AHRS wouldn't be a huge undertaking but it does add more work, more wires, one more thing that could fail, etc. > > Just wondering what others think. > > Thanks, > Don > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415997#415997 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:51 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will brown out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah fire alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a resistor in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem without it. Tim, The plan was to not power up the EFIS until the engine was running. My EIS is already at the rear of the cabin (out of sight). But the alarm line will activate on low oil pressure. I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't find an acceptable 24v battery. Got any suggestions? -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416005#416005 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:50 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups Yep, 12 volt system. Sorry but I think you will run into one after another of these issues. Just one guys opinion. Also if the alarm is from the EIS drop it and use the EFIS alarm instead. You won't be able to reset the EIS alarms unless it's in the panel. So they can all be left deactivated when you set up the EIS. Tim Tim > On Dec 21, 2013, at 11:32 AM, "donjohnston" wrote: > > > > tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will brown out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah fire alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a resistor in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem without it. > > > Tim, > The plan was to not power up the EFIS until the engine was running. My EIS is already at the rear of the cabin (out of sight). But the alarm line will activate on low oil pressure. I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't find an acceptable 24v battery. Got any suggestions? > > -Don > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416005#416005 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: Eric Page On Dec 21, 2013, at 1:32 PM, "donjohnston" wrote: > I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't find an acceptable 24v battery. Got any suggestions? Two 12V batteries, each with half your required capacity, wired in series. There may be charge balancing issues with this configuration; perhaps someone smarter than me can address this. If you just want brownout protection, it could be provided by Eric Jones' "de-slumpifier" super-capacitor device, rehashed for 28V operation. Does the GRT power the AHRS and magnetometer boxes, or do they need separate backup power feeds? Eric ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:11 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a way around the unequal charging issue. The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The magnetometers are powered by the AHRS. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416013#416013 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:41 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups Regarding the unequal charging issue, as I recall from talking to Bob, it's only an issue if the batteries are subjected to different states of discharge and then coupled for recharging. I believe as long as the units are always together, the fact that they exist in 2 cases instead of 1 is not relevant. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 12/21/2013 04:37 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a way around the unequal charging issue. > > The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The magnetometers are powered by the AHRS. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416013#416013 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solicitation for opinions on backups At 12:20 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote: > >I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would >like to get some opinions on backup power. > >Here's the platform details: >Continental IO-550N >28v Electrical System >Single battery >Vertical Power VP-X Pro >Grand Rapids EIS 6000 >Single screen Grand Rapids HXr >Dual AHRS >Dual Magnetometers >Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS) > >If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon >(which should run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad >with foreflight, I should be able to get on the ground in one piece >(albeit, hopefully VFR). . . . . and a meteor through your crankcase would certainly stop the engine too . . . I'm not trying to be obtuse my friend but before you starting building a plan-b, it would be wise to assess the risks and the effects of those risks on plan-a first. At the same time, it's very useful to consider the planned missions in concert with your own skill set to craft a plan-b that will offer a 99.9% probability of sweat-free arrival with the earth when presented with ANY SINGLE FAILURE in the compliment of hardware you've listed above. You need an energy budget for plan-B along with a SUBSET list of the goodies cited above that will guide you to a comfortable termination of flight should the alternator quit. Then insure successful implementation of that plan with judicious preventative maintenance of the battery . . . which is how the BIG guys do it. You're contemplating a need for 'backup power' based on what catastrophic failure? Have you identified a failure that will put the whole VP-X system to sleep? If so, you need to have some serious discussions with Marc who will either fill you in on where the analysis went wrong -or- give you good reason to remove the system in favor of a legacy design that doesn't propagate a single failure across system boundaries. Attempting to craft plan-c, d, e, and f for every imaginable failure invariably creates a system so complex that it is MORE likely to suffer a failure . . . while offering you too many options at a time when you need to be a pilot as opposed to a systems manager. Have you listed your design goals for this project? One-liners that speak to an objective based on demonstrable risk and equally demonstrable verification or testing. This is the process we go through to craft a plan-b based on understanding of the system's capabilities and limits after EVERY reason to fear it has be eliminated. Can you post a list of your design goals and the circumstances that drive them? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Filter Boards As I have explained to Lew, there are filters boards available at no cost which MAY prove quite useful in reducing LED fixture noises to acceptable levels. But there are strings attached. I'd like to demonstrate that the boards do the job . . . an experiment that cannot be conducted without first identifying a problem noise source Bob . . . At 09:28 AM 12/20/2013, you wrote: Hi Bob. Lew Jennings here in the Palm Springs/Thermal, CA area building a Glasair II with my A&P/IA son. Looking at changing over from standard landing light to LED as mentioned on the Matronics list. Do you still have a filter board available you mentioned this morning that I can purchase? Thanks! -LewSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Have you identified a noise issue? I'm cautious about how many of these things I give away and under what circumstances. They're easy to ADD to an existing light assembly. I would rather than they NOT be installed until the builder first demonstrates a noise issue . . . and then does the experiment to see if the problem is solved by adding a filter. It's way too easy for everybody to assume that because the filter exists and one experiment was useful that the thing should become standard equipment on every future installation. That's how the avionics master switch came into being and plowed a very deep furrow in the psyche of folks who deal with airplanes. The filters are free but let's do an ordered set of experiments to see which devices need it and how effective it is on an experiment- by-experiment basis. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups At 04:37 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote: > >I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a >way around the unequal charging issue. > >The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The >magnetometers are powered by the AHRS. What 'unequal charging issue' . . . are there plans for tapping the 12v terminal of the 24v string to power some device? A 24v battery is 12 cells in one box. Two 12v batteries are 12 cells in two boxes. They series up and behave just as if they were 12 cells in one box as long as you don't mess with the junction between the two batteries. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:05 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" > . . . . and a meteor through your crankcase would certainly stop the engine too . . . > > I'm not trying to be obtuse And yet, here we are... I didn't intend to discuss engine reliability. That is outside the purview of my post. I humbly apologize if I somehow misstated my question. > At the same time, it's very useful to consider the planned missions in concert with your own skill set to craft a plan-b that will offer a 99.9% > probability of sweat-free arrival with the earth when presented with ANY SINGLE FAILURE in the compliment of hardware you've listed above. And I've done that. Again, I didn't mean to imply that was my question. > You're contemplating a need for 'backup power' based on what catastrophic failure? And that brings us to what my post is actually about. I hadn't planned on a catastrophic failure. Alternator and battery was my plan. But when you're getting ready to jump in the water to go swimming and it looks like everyone else is in a shark cage, you have to question whether or not you've thought everything through. After looking at other builders using the VP-X and seeing almost a 100% adoption of an alternate power approach, I decided to post the "solicitation for opinions". And now that we've gone through all that, can someone tell me how to delete a post? [Embarassed] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416021#416021 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:34 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups Don't assume that what you see on forums is a majority or even a plurality. I wired up a VP-X for my project, where there is a single alternator, a single ship's battery, and one switch that turns off all non-essential avionics. Each of my two EFIS screens has its own backup battery that takes over when ship's power drops below something like 12.3 volts. Of course the VP-X lets me turn on or off individual items for the situation IF I have time to think about what is needed. I expect to get 30 min backup from ship's battery and another 45 min of glass panel, which I can operate sequentially if need to get more time...but if I can find some place to land within an hour, I have other problems. Sticking with conventional Bendix 1200 mags to keep things simple and reliable. Maybe others need more backup, but I don't for my missions. If the VP-X should happen to fail catastrophically I would have to rely on my handheld navcom and handheld GPS. I don't judge that risk to be high enough to complicate things with wiring to bypass the VP-X. On 12/21/2013 6:03 PM, donjohnston wrote: > Alternator and battery was my plan. But when you're getting ready to jump in the water to go swimming and it looks like everyone else is in a shark cage, you have to question whether or not you've thought everything through. After looking at other builders using the VP-X and seeing almost a 100% adoption of an alternate power approach, I decided to post the "solicitation for opinions". > > And now that we've gone through all that, can someone tell me how to delete a post? > [Embarassed] > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416021#416021 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:44 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" That's what I was thinking. I was just looking for a little sanity check. :D I thought that I had a pretty good plan but then I kept seeing others (not for a second did I think that the builds I was seeing made up 100% of all the installs) that were building with belts, suspenders, staples, tape and backup belts. [Laughing] My philosophy was to be as simple and safe. I was just starting to think that I was overlooking something. Thanks for the opinion! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416027#416027 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:46 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups Don, Please forgive my tongue in cheek reference to over-worrying a problem. My intent was to highlight a common problem with plug-n-play responses to incomplete questions. You mentioned catastrophic failure of the Vertical Power system as a concern. This suggests to me that your faith in the VP-X system is weak . . . possibly because you lack a comfortable handle on the likelihood of such an event or a game plan for dealing with the kinds of failures that might plague the VP-X. This is a system design/integration problem when the builder buys a REALLY neat box that sings, dances and washes dishes . . . but doesn't offer a clear notion of how one should deal with getting a few dishes washed when the light bulb over the sheet music goes out. You have purchased a system that would get a LOT of scrutiny by the engineers tasked with first making it work on a TC airplane and then qualifying it. Believe me, there would be few if any stones left unturned. Now the box is on your workbench . . . all you've got are the wiring diagrams and operator's manual . . . and you have some worries . . . but about what? The booths at OSH are sprinkled with all manner of 'solutions' to over-worried and/or under-studied problems. I strolled those isles 13 years running and marveled at the kinds of things sold onto OBAM aircraft that were never offered on TC aircraft . . . but didn't seem to make an observable difference in accident rates. Nor did they offer a demonstrable return on investment for cost of ownership and loss of payload when the empty weight of your airplane went up. All I was suggesting is that your quest for recommendations on a 'backup power source' was incomplete. Has the worried-about failure been qualified and quantified for both probability and an energy budget to deal with it? You're going to get a number of suggestions. How do you pick the best one? If you add a battery or two, battery maintenance demands go up even though you may not need to use that battery over the lifetime of the airplane. My fondest wish for the List is that it be a forum for sifting the simple ideas based on physics and lessons learned to arrive at a lower cost, lighter weight, simpler solution. But it does take some time, study and establishment of design goals. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups At 05:42 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote: >Regarding the unequal charging issue, as I recall from talking to >Bob, it's only an issue if the batteries are subjected to different >states of discharge and then coupled for recharging. I believe as >long as the units are always together, the fact that they exist in 2 >cases instead of 1 is not relevant. you remember rightly . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups From: "donjohnston" > Please forgive my tongue in cheek reference to over-worrying > a problem. Apologies. I was unable to discern the location of your tongue for that post. [Laughing] > My intent was to highlight a common problem with plug-n-play > responses to incomplete questions. And I wasn't really looking for an answer since I really didn't have a true question. I was really just looking (fishing, if you will) for opinions as to how far is too far when dealing with putting in "backups". My approach is fairly straightforward (at least for me). I'm running a standard, stock aircraft engine, mags (not an electronic ignition). My only deviation from what's been used in the foundation of GA aircraft for years is the VP-X. If the stock alternator fails, I've got a B&C SD-20. If that fails, I've got the battery. If the VP-X fails, the engine will continue producing power (the boost pump can pull power from the VP-X or directly from the battery). I'll be able to keep the shiny side up with the Dynon D1 for up to four hours (much longer than the battery would probably last). I've got a iPad with a GPS and a Garmin 396 to help me figure out where I'm going. So I think that I've got a good Plan B, C, D, E and F. I was just looking for opinions (not answers, opinions) on whether the additional wire, hardware, etc. required to keep the EFIS glowing happily running after the unlikely event of a VP-X failure was worth the trouble. And since I wasn't born yesterday, I know that opinions are like buttholes (everyone else's stink). We cool? 8) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416032#416032 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.