---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/28/14: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:03 AM - Re: Strobe switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:59 AM - Re: Strobe switches (Fisher Paul A.) 3. 07:44 AM - Copper Bar (JOHN TIPTON) 4. 08:07 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Ron Burnett) 5. 08:35 AM - Re: Strobe switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:55 AM - Re: Strobe switches (Fisher Paul A.) 7. 08:59 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Jeff Luckey) 8. 10:17 AM - Re: Strobe switches (Tim Andres) 9. 10:57 AM - Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (JohnInReno) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches At 09:44 AM 1/23/2014, you wrote: > > >At 07:38 PM 1/22/2014, you wrote: >> >>Yes I still have the problem system and would be happy to send to you. >>Just let me know the address and it's on it's way. No return required. > > Sure. > > P.O. Box 130, Medicine Lodge, Ks, 67104-0130 I received Bill's strobe supply and began to research its pedigree. Seems to be a custom device designed for Creativair (now defunct) and manufactured by Nova. The nameplate says 10-30 volts input which speaks to a modern, switchmode power supply topology. It also says 70 watts in, 60 watts out and input current of 5.5A. Of course, that 5.5A figure is accurate only at the bus voltage where 70 watts of demand is satisfied or 70/5.5=12.7 volts. At a bus voltage of 14 volts or more, input current would be expected to fall to about 5A. IN a 28v airplane, the current would be about half that. Bill says he supplied this device through a 7A fuse which held solid while other devices in the supply line were less happy about the nature of demands on their capabilities. We would probably do well to compile a listing of switch/terminal failures in strobe systems. Bill, would you repeat your narrative of what items in your strobe supply path failed . . . along with your best guess as to the epicenter of the failures? How many instances did you experience before you replaced the power supply? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:21 AM PST US From: "Fisher Paul A." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches If this is the "AVI-PAK" sold by CreativAir, then I have one too. Mine has been in service for about 3.5 years (300+ flight hours) and I haven't noticed any problems... so far! Last inspection was in July, and as soon as it warms up a little, I'll inspect all of the connections again just to be sure nothing is sneaking up on me. I'd be very interested in any analysis of this device and what, if anything, we can do to prevent re-occurrence of this issue. Paul A. Fisher RV-7A N18PF -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:01 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches ...snip... I received Bill's strobe supply and began to research its pedigree. Seems to be a custom device designed for Creativair (now defunct) and manufactured by Nova. ...snip ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:38 AM PST US From: JOHN TIPTON Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar Hi Guys=0A=0AIs this suitable for the Contactor connections, ANL fuse link etc, or is 3mm thickness too much=0A=0Ahttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3906923406 35?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649=0A=0A=0ABest r egards=0A=0AJohn (RV9a - work in progress)=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:55 AM PST US From: Ron Burnett Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar As suggested once by Mr. Bob, you can put a piece of copper pipe in a vise. Works great. Ron Burnett RV-6A Sent from my iPad May you have the blessings of the Lord today. > On Jan 28, 2014, at 9:40 AM, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > > Hi Guys > > Is this suitable for the Contactor connections, ANL fuse link etc, or is 3 mm thickness too much > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390692340635?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trks id=p3984.m1436.l2649 > > Best regards > > John (RV9a - work in progress) > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches At 07:58 AM 1/28/2014, you wrote: > > >If this is the "AVI-PAK" sold by CreativAir, then I have one >too. Mine has been in service for about 3.5 years (300+ flight >hours) and I haven't noticed any problems... so far! Last >inspection was in July, and as soon as it warms up a little, I'll >inspect all of the connections again just to be sure nothing is >sneaking up on me. > >I'd be very interested in any analysis of this device and what, if >anything, we can do to prevent re-occurrence of this issue. Good idea. I'd also like to 'bicycle' the DAS system to you and get some data off your as-installed system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:53 AM PST US From: "Fisher Paul A." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches Absolutely. Happy to help. - Paul Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches --> At 07:58 AM 1/28/2014, you wrote: > > >If this is the "AVI-PAK" sold by CreativAir, then I have one too. Mine >has been in service for about 3.5 years (300+ flight >hours) and I haven't noticed any problems... so far! Last inspection >was in July, and as soon as it warms up a little, I'll inspect all of >the connections again just to be sure nothing is sneaking up on me. > >I'd be very interested in any analysis of this device and what, if >anything, we can do to prevent re-occurrence of this issue. Good idea. I'd also like to 'bicycle' the DAS system to you and get some data off your as-installed system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:53 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar John,=0A=0A3mm is about 1/8 of an inch (if my math is correct) and that thi ckness is more than enough to handle starter current - if you bussing does not need to handle that much current then you could go w/ thinner material. - =0A=0AAnother consideration is that copper oxidizes very quickly so you need to make sure that the connections are very clean when you assemble. - In industry, copper bussbars are commonly plated w/ either silver or ti n to protect against poor connection quality due to oxidation.=0A=0ABrass i s another material commonly used in electrical busses & devices and it does not oxidize as quickly and is less expensive.- I just made some bussbars from .050 brass (they were not in the starter circuit) and the brass was e asy to work with & cheaper than the equivalent copper.=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: JOHN TIPTON =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:40 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric- List: Copper Bar=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Guys=0A=0AIs this suitable for the Contacto r connections, ANL fuse link etc, or is 3mm thickness too much=0A=0Ahttp:// www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390692340635?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p39 84.m1436.l2649=0A=0A=0ABest regards=0A=0AJohn (RV9a - work in progress)=0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe switches From: Tim Andres Creative-air/Avi-pak here also, 240 hrs, two years, no issues. However, it's been on a Bosch cube relay since day one. Tim > On Jan 28, 2014, at 8:34 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > At 07:58 AM 1/28/2014, you wrote: >> >> If this is the "AVI-PAK" sold by CreativAir, then I have one too. Mine has been in service for about 3.5 years (300+ flight hours) and I haven't noticed any problems... so far! Last inspection was in July, and as soon as it warms up a little, I'll inspect all of the connections again just to be sure nothing is sneaking up on me. >> >> I'd be very interested in any analysis of this device and what, if anything, we can do to prevent re-occurrence of this issue. > > Good idea. I'd also like to 'bicycle' the DAS > system to you and get some data off your > as-installed system. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: "JohnInReno" I posted the following comment at Enersys. > I am having very bad luck with PC-680 batteries for use in a Vans Aircraft RV9A. > Purchased a PC-680 on 9/18/12 from Vans Aircraft. > Purchased a PC-680 on 9/13/13 from Aircraft Spruce. > Purchased a PC-680 on 1/22/14 from Batteries Plus in Chandler, AZ. > The airworthiness certificate was issued July 3, 2013 and I have about 75 hours on the plane. The latest failure left me stranded at the Chandler, AZ airport far from home. Is there any warranty on this? > > Batteries #1 and #2 were religiously maintained on a Schumacher 1562A. The Odyssey Battery Approved 12V Charger List has this: SC-2500A (no longer in production) "No other Schumacher branded chargers are approved by ODYSSEY" Battery #2 would not turn the starter but did operate the panel and fuel pump. After charging at the local FBO, it showed 12.5+ volts but dropped to 8v in 3 seconds under load. This symptom was confirmed when I purchased #3 at Batteries Plus. I believe that Odyssey is saying that the Schumacher killed the battery after only 3 months. This is the response from Odyssey: Hello John, Thank you for contacting EnerSys/ODYSSEY. Unfortunately, due to the multiple consistent failures, this would indicate that the PC680 battery is not suited for your application or that it is not being properly maintained or charged. Charging and maintenance information has been provided below. The PC680 powersports battery has a two year warranty (attached) for manufacturing defects. The warranty procedure requires that the battery be returned to the point of purchase (preferred) or to a participating ODYSSEY dealer or distributor for warranty support. No ODYSSEY dealer is required to offer assistance. It is not what we want to see but it is a fact. Batteries Plus, for example, has a policy of not warranting product not sold form one of their locations. Once received at a location, the battery voltage has to be a minimum of at least 8.0V, have a purchase date based on a receipt or ship date code date within the warranty period, and fails attempted recovery. If the battery is at least 8.0V, is returned within the warranty period, is not recoverable, and shows no signs of abuse or neglect such as bulging from overheating, overcharging or damage due to mishandling, the battery can be warranted. If the location will the warranty the battery then the battery can be warranted by the factory based on the information provided by the supporting location. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of any battery including the ODYSSEY battery. Here is a little ODYSSEY Battery 101 Most batteries including AGMs are considered fully charged at 12.6-12.7V. This is not so for the TPPL AGM ODYSSEY battery. The usable energy of the ODYSSEY battery is from 11.2V (0% state of charge) OCV to 12.84V OCV (Open Circuit Voltage should be checked after a minimum of 6-8 hours rest period with no loads) or higher. When the battery goes below 10.0V OCV, you are getting into the chemical part of the battery and can cause permanent damage. At less than 8.0V the ODYSSEY limited warranty deems the battery over-discharged due to abuse or neglect, usually unintentional. At less than 6.0V the battery can develop reversed cells and once reversed, the cells cannot be reversed back. If the battery becomes over-discharged (below 11.0V OCV), then the sooner the battery can be fully charged properly, the better. If the battery remains connected to the application during storage for extended periods of non-use, an ODYSSEY program approved 12V maintainer can be used to prevent over-discharge and maintain the battery at a full state of charge and counteract the parasitic loads of the application. There is a link to a list of ODYSSEY program approved 12V chargers (and maintainers) linked on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page for your reference. The list of approved 12V chargers is provided due to the many chargers that are programmed for the vast majority of batteries on the market that prefer low amp charging and lower float voltages that do not fully charge or maintain the ODYSSEY battery properly. The recommended charging current for an ODYSSEY battery is 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for cyclic or deep discharge applications (about 6A for a single 16Ah PC680), a constant float voltage of 13.5-13.8V (printed on the top label of the battery) and no constant voltages exceeding 15.0V in any kind of de-sulfation/reconditioning/equalize mode. At greater than 15.0V the battery can overcharge, overheat, and/or go into thermal runaway. Maintaining the battery at less than 13.5V will bring the battery down and maintain it in an undercharged condition causing premature sulfation and premature failure. For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row frequently) regular use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season. The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode). Stored in or out of the application fully charged, with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first. The self discharge rate increases significantly for temperatures above 25C (77F) and for every 10C (18F) temperature increase the storage time to recharge is decreased by half. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the battery. Freezing will not harm the battery and self discharge rates reduce significantly at colder temperatures. It is recommended that the ODYSSEY battery be charged if it is less than 12.65V when put into use per the ODYSSEY Owners Manual (link provided on website Literature page for your reference). Most standard alternators/stators are not meant to be deep discharge recovery chargers and can damage the alternator/stator as well as not fully charging the battery with limited use. The Cyclic Charge Voltage range printed on the top label of the battery is the recommended voltage at the battery from the applications charging system (alternator or stator). At less than 14.1V the battery may not be getting fully charged for infrequently used applications. You can verify the battery voltage by checking the voltage at the battery at least 8 hours after application use (or off charge) and if the battery voltage is not at least 12.84V then the battery is not considered fully charged. Voltage readings taken right off charge or after use (alternator/stator charging) will be inflated and inaccurate so for a true OCV reading, you should wait at least 8 hours before checking the voltage (OCV) with 24 hour rest period being preferred. Simply put, if you have a maintainer that has a high enough charging current to counteract any parasitic loads of the application and maintain the battery between 13.5-13.8V at the battery and does not exceed 15.0V in any kind of automatic reconditioning/equalize/de-sulfation mode, it can be used to maintain the battery indefinitely without harming the ODYSSEY battery. If you do not have an acceptable maintainer or you have not been using and acceptable maintainer consistently enough, then that may be your primary issue. I hope this information gives you an understanding of the product. Please contact me if you have any questions, concerns or need further assistance. Sincerely, cid:image003.jpg@01CE6B76.5D725510 Kathy Mitchell ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative Phone: 660-429-7551 Toll Free: 888-422-0317 Fax: 660-429-1758 Email: kathy.mitchell@enersys.com Web site: www.odysseybattery.com Corp site: www.enersys.com -------- John Morgensen RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013 RV4 - for sale Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417784#417784 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/odysseyapproved12vchargersoct2013_172.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.