---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/30/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:33 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:36 AM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:39 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:27 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Heresy Alert!) (Charlie England) 5. 12:30 PM - Re: Copper Bar (Heresy Alert!) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 01:40 PM - Aviation archaeology (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 02:04 PM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (John Morgensen) 8. 02:59 PM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Tim Andres) 9. 03:46 PM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Charles Plumery) 10. 08:01 PM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Tim Andres) 11. 08:33 PM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Tim Andres) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar >Another consideration is that copper oxidizes very quickly so you >need to make sure that the connections are very clean when you >assemble. In industry, copper bussbars are commonly plated w/ >either silver or tin to protect against poor connection quality due >to oxidation. If the joined materials are in good contact with each other and made up with sufficient force, joint integrity is assured in spite of any corrosion visible outside the joint. So FLAT, clean parts bolted together with non-trivial force is the key . . . This is one of the reasons why I have not been a strong proponent of mashing copper round things into copper flat things for use as bus bars . . . it's hard to get them really flat around the bolt holes. If you can start with sheet materials, then you are 75% of the way along the path to gas-tight Nirvana. >Brass is another material commonly used in electrical busses & >devices and it does not oxidize as quickly and is less expensive. I >just made some bussbars from .050 brass (they were not in the >starter circuit) and the brass was easy to work with & cheaper than >the equivalent copper. A reader pointed out here on the List that brass (depending on alloy) has a resistance 2 to 3x that of copper. So to get the same temperature rise on a brass bar, it needs to be at least 2x more 'meat' between the studs. Just to put it into perspective, a 4AWG wire is 250 micro-ohms per foot. 200A would give us a voltage drop on the order of 50mV/foot. A 4" length of 4AWG between studs would drop 1/3 that or 16 mV. In this experiment I conducted on the bench a few years back http://tinyurl.com/k9v6mnt a strip of brass shim stock .75" wide and .005" thick offered a 40F rise at 20A of current flow and a 58mV drop. Consider a brass bar .75 x .05 (10x thicker) at 200A would offer about the same performance. We'd have to be 3 times thicker yet or .15" to bring voltage drop into the same neighborhood as 4AWG copper. A copper bar could be 1/2 that thickness and offer the about the same performance. 4awg has a cross section of 0.03 square inches. So a copper strip .062 thick needs to be 0.03/0.63 or about 0.50" wide. You can't drill 0.32 holes in strip that narrow so a 0.75" wide x 0.062" copper is a good choice for this application. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 > >At this point, I plan to not use the maintainer and fly often enough >to keep the system going. I will test the maintainer on an old >battery and see what voltages I get. > >john Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries is very low . . . there's probably no value in hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as it's flown every month . . . or more often. There's something going on with your airplane at appears abusive to the battery. What kind of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar At 09:40 AM 1/28/2014, you wrote: >Hi Guys > >Is this suitable for the Contactor connections, ANL fuse link etc, >or is 3mm thickness too much > >http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390692340635?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 > >Best regards > >John (RV9a - work in progress) It would work nicely. It's a bit thick so you won't be able to put many more terminals on the same studs . . . but it's certainly capable electrically as described in my post of a few minutes ago. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:25 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar (Heresy Alert!) On 1/30/2014 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> Another consideration is that copper oxidizes very quickly so you >> need to make sure that the connections are very clean when you >> assemble. In industry, copper bussbars are commonly plated w/ either >> silver or tin to protect against poor connection quality due to >> oxidation. > > If the joined materials are in good contact with > each other and made up with sufficient force, joint > integrity is assured in spite of any corrosion visible > outside the joint. So FLAT, clean parts bolted together > with non-trivial force is the key . . . > > This is one of the reasons why I have not been a > strong proponent of mashing copper round things > into copper flat things for use as bus bars . . . > it's hard to get them really flat around the bolt > holes. > > If you can start with sheet materials, then you are > 75% of the way along the path to gas-tight Nirvana. > > >> Brass is another material commonly used in electrical busses & >> devices and it does not oxidize as quickly and is less expensive. I >> just made some bussbars from .050 brass (they were not in the starter >> circuit) and the brass was easy to work with & cheaper than the >> equivalent copper. > > A reader pointed out here on the List that brass > (depending on alloy) has a resistance 2 to 3x > that of copper. So to get the same temperature > rise on a brass bar, it needs to be at least 2x > more 'meat' between the studs. > > Just to put it into perspective, a 4AWG > wire is 250 micro-ohms per foot. 200A > would give us a voltage drop on the order > of 50mV/foot. A 4" length of 4AWG > between studs would drop 1/3 that or 16 > mV. > > In this experiment I conducted on the bench > a few years back > > http://tinyurl.com/k9v6mnt > > a strip of brass shim stock .75" wide and > .005" thick offered a 40F rise at 20A of > current flow and a 58mV drop. Consider a > brass bar .75 x .05 (10x thicker) at 200A > would offer about the same performance. > We'd have to be 3 times thicker yet or .15" > to bring voltage drop into the same neighborhood > as 4AWG copper. > > A copper bar could be 1/2 that thickness > and offer the about the same performance. > > 4awg has a cross section of 0.03 square > inches. So a copper strip .062 thick > needs to be 0.03/0.63 or about 0.50" > wide. You can't drill 0.32 holes in > strip that narrow so a 0.75" wide x > 0.062" copper is a good choice for > this application. > > > Bob . . . You know, aluminum is only slightly less conductive than gold; certainly as good as or better than brass. Anyone building an aluminum aircraft will likely have quite a bit of 6061 alloy scrap & 'cutoffs' lying around. If the same care in prep & installation is taken with an aluminum bus bar that is taken with wing ribs, skins, etc, there's no reason for fatigue to be an issue. A little dielectric compound on the joint (I'm talking about a screwed/bolted joint, not a spring tab in an electrical outlet), and it's no more likely to corrode than a wing rib. As a point of reference, if you live in a house in the USA, your electrical service wire (street to meter to mains breaker) is almost certainly aluminum. Flame suit ready, Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Bar (Heresy Alert!) You know, aluminum is only slightly less conductive than gold; certainly as good as or better than brass. Anyone building an aluminum aircraft will likely have quite a bit of 6061 alloy scrap & 'cutoffs' lying around. True. 6061 is on the same order of resistivity as brass . . . so an 0.13 or thicker aluminum sheet or bar stock would offer an electrically equivalent bus bar. If the same care in prep & installation is taken with an aluminum bus bar that is taken with wing ribs, skins, etc, there's no reason for fatigue to be an issue. A little dielectric compound on the joint (I'm talking about a screwed/bolted joint, not a spring tab in an electrical outlet), and it's no more likely to corrode than a wing rib. The aluminums found in most shops tend to be harder than the copper. It's the malleable nature of copper than makes it more 'terminal friendly' for achieving gas-tight joints under the make-up forces of threaded fasteners. As a point of reference, if you live in a house in the USA, your electrical service wire (street to meter to mains breaker) is almost certainly aluminum. I think the alloy of those wires moves toward the dead-soft spectrum of alloys with a volume resistivity on the order of 2.6x10^-8 as opposed to 4.2 to 5.8x10^-8 for the structural alloys. I'm not aware of any parts on a metal project that would call for 0.125" material . . . but you're absolutely correct. There's no electrical reason to prefer brass over aluminum . . . but I'll suggest there are reasons both electrical and mechanical to prefer copper over both. If I were fabricating an aluminum bus bar, I think I would cut and drill in the 'hard' state for easy machining then anneal the finished part with techniques described all over the 'nets metal fabrication forums. Seal clean joints as you've suggested. Works good and lasts a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aviation archaeology From all of my personal recollections, the facility on the northeast corner of Kellogg and Webb was always Beech Plant II. It's the building where many Bonanzas and Barons were built. I only recently became aware of it's history. Uncle Walter didn't built the original structure. The building has been there for more than 85 years and dates back to a time when Wichita had 20+ manufacturers of airplanes. http://tinyurl.com/lgjgnb2 One such company was the Knoll Aircraft Corporation http://tinyurl.com/lf363n5 http://tinyurl.com/ksxrx2v In operation barely one year they started out on West 1st street (right next to Cessna!) before they built the 'largest building in Kansas devoted to the manufacturing of airplanes. They closed the doors in 1929. Yellow Air Cab company occupied it for about 4 years http://tinyurl.com/ksxrx2v Followed by Straughn Aircraft http://tinyurl.com/kpnnsky Not until 1940, 21 years after its construction did it become Beechcraft Plant II. Vestiges of the original Knoll facility were visible from outside the additions constructed over the years by Beech. Many pages of aviation history were written in and around that building. They're starting to tear it down . . . should be level ground in a few weeks. Ground that hasn't seen the light of day for over 85 years. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:32 PM PST US From: John Morgensen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one or two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can occasionally get a work-out. When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross country day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been fully charged. There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mags are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigarette lighter and the switch to the essential bus. When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the battery. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on the problem? john On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries > is very low . . . there's probably no value in > hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as > it's flown every month . . . or more often. > > There's something going on with your airplane > at appears abusive to the battery. What kind > of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: Tim Andres Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. Tim > On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote: > > > The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one or two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can occasionally get a work-out. > > When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross country day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been fully charged. > > There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mags are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigarette lighter and the switch to the essential bus. > > When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the battery. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on the problem? > > john > >> On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries >> is very low . . . there's probably no value in >> hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as >> it's flown every month . . . or more often. >> >> There's something going on with your airplane >> at appears abusive to the battery. What kind >> of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: Charles Plumery Tim, Send me your trick for a hot start on FI engine. I have a friend that is alw ays having problems with his setup. Thanks, Sent from my iPad, Chuck =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cann ot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, fo r he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst t hose within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alley s, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the h earts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknow n in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body pol itic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D > On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > > > > Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. > I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. > Tim > >> On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote: >> om> >> >> The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one o r two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can oc casionally get a work-out. >> >> When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross cou ntry day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been fully charged. >> >> There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mags a re wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigarette lighter and the switch to the essential bus. >> >> When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the battery . Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on t he problem? >> >> john >> >>> On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries >>> is very low . . . there's probably no value in >>> hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as >>> it's flown every month . . . or more often. >>> >>> There's something going on with your airplane >>> at appears abusive to the battery. What kind >>> of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: Tim Andres This came from Russel Mahlon, I had the email from him but lost it. I had be en hot starting by: No boost Idle cut off Throttle cracked Crank and go rich when it catches. It works ok but on occasion, well you know. So his procedure is: No Boost Both levers forward and then back to idle Mixture idle cutoff Throttle half Crank When it catches move throttle slowly back to idle Then mixture forward to about where you normally taxi. His method is much more reliable than my other, it seems to work every time. If I'm uncertain about whether to use cold or hot, like after an hour lunch stop, I'll hit the boost for just a second first. Hope it works for you. Tim > On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:42 PM, Charles Plumery wrot e: > > Tim, > Send me your trick for a hot start on FI engine. I have a friend that is a lways having problems with his setup. > Thanks, > > Sent from my iPad, > Chuck > =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it ca nnot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, f or he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst t hose within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alley s, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the h earts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknow n in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body pol itic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D > >> On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Tim Andres wrote: >> t> >> >> Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. >> I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. >> Tim >> >>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote: >>> com> >>> >>> The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one o r two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can oc casionally get a work-out. >>> >>> When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross co untry day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been full y charged. >>> >>> There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mags are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigaret te lighter and the switch to the essential bus. >>> >>> When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the batter y. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on t he problem? >>> >>> john >>> >>>> On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>> >>>> Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries >>>> is very low . . . there's probably no value in >>>> hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as >>>> it's flown every month . . . or more often. >>>> >>>> There's something going on with your airplane >>>> at appears abusive to the battery. What kind >>>> of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >> >> http://www.matronics.================== ========================== ========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUM"http://forums.matron ics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> <======================== ============ > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: Tim Andres Sorry guys, didn't intend to broadcast that. Tim > On Jan 30, 2014, at 7:54 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > > This came from Russel Mahlon, I had the email from him but lost it. I had b een hot starting by: > No boost > Idle cut off > Throttle cracked > Crank and go rich when it catches. > It works ok but on occasion, well you know. > > So his procedure is: > No Boost > Both levers forward and then back to idle > Mixture idle cutoff > Throttle half > Crank > When it catches move throttle slowly back to idle > Then mixture forward to about where you normally taxi. > His method is much more reliable than my other, it seems to work every tim e. If I'm uncertain about whether to use cold or hot, like after an hour lun ch stop, I'll hit the boost for just a second first. > Hope it works for you. > Tim > > >> On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:42 PM, Charles Plumery wro te: >> >> Tim, >> Send me your trick for a hot start on FI engine. I have a friend that is a lways having problems with his setup. >> Thanks, >> >> Sent from my iPad, >> Chuck >> =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it c annot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongs t those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the al leys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears n ot a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears the ir face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in th e hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unk nown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body p olitic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D >> >>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Tim Andres wrote: >>> et> >>> >>> Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. >>> I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. >>> Tim >>> >>>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote: >>>> .com> >>>> >>>> The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one or two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can o ccasionally get a work-out. >>>> >>>> When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross c ountry day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been ful ly charged. >>>> >>>> There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mag s are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigare tte lighter and the switch to the essential bus. >>>> >>>> When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the batte ry. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on the problem? >>>> >>>> john >>>> >>>>> On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries >>>>> is very low . . . there's probably no value in >>>>> hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as >>>>> it's flown every month . . . or more often. >>>>> >>>>> There's something going on with your airplane >>>>> at appears abusive to the battery. What kind >>>>> of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob . . . >>> >>> http://www.matronics.================= ========================== =========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUM"http://forums.mat ronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> <======================== ============ >> >> >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> //forums.matronics.com >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.