---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/31/14: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Jay Hyde) 2. 05:34 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Eric M. Jones) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 (Charles Plumery) 4. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Copper Bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Copper Bar (Dave Saylor) 6. 10:40 AM - Re: Copper Bar (Eric M. Jones) 7. 11:54 AM - Essential Bus question (rkharr) 8. 06:27 PM - Re: Essential Bus question (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:49 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 I don=99t think that it was bad to send it out to the list; its aircraft related, if not electrical. Any extra bit of information like that is almost always useful Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Andres Sent: 31 January 2014 06:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 Sorry guys, didn't intend to broadcast that. Tim On Jan 30, 2014, at 7:54 PM, Tim Andres wrote: This came from Russel Mahlon, I had the email from him but lost it. I had been hot starting by: No boost Idle cut off Throttle cracked Crank and go rich when it catches. It works ok but on occasion, well you know. So his procedure is: No Boost Both levers forward and then back to idle Mixture idle cutoff Throttle half Crank When it catches move throttle slowly back to idle Then mixture forward to about where you normally taxi. His method is much more reliable than my other, it seems to work every time. If I'm uncertain about whether to use cold or hot, like after an hour lunch stop, I'll hit the boost for just a second first. Hope it works for you. Tim On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:42 PM, Charles Plumery wrote: Tim, Send me your trick for a hot start on FI engine. I have a friend that is always having problems with his setup. Thanks, Sent from my iPad, Chuck =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Tim Andres wrote: Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. Tim On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote: The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are one or two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can occasionally get a work-out. When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross country day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been fully charged. There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-mags are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigarette lighter and the switch to the essential bus. When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the battery. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light on the problem? john On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries is very low . . . there's probably no value in hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as it's flown every month . . . or more often. There's something going on with your airplane at appears abusive to the battery. What kind of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? Bob . . . < span=""> http://www.matronics.================== =========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUM"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com <> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //forums.matronics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //forums.matronics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Bar From: "Eric M. Jones" The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I have tried to get these add to my product line, but complications regarding size and quantity have delayed the deal. Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper weighs. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417943#417943 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Schumacher 1562 and PC 680 From: Charles Plumery Thanks Tim, I will pass it on. Sent from my iPad, Chuck =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cann ot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, fo r he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst t hose within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alley s, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the h earts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknow n in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body pol itic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D > On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:30 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > > Sorry guys, didn't intend to broadcast that. > Tim > >> On Jan 30, 2014, at 7:54 PM, Tim Andres wrote: >> >> This came from Russel Mahlon, I had the email from him but lost it. I had been hot starting by: >> No boost >> Idle cut off >> Throttle cracked >> Crank and go rich when it catches. >> It works ok but on occasion, well you know. >> >> So his procedure is: >> No Boost >> Both levers forward and then back to idle >> Mixture idle cutoff >> Throttle half >> Crank >> When it catches move throttle slowly back to idle >> Then mixture forward to about where you normally taxi. >> His method is much more reliable than my other, it seems to work every ti me. If I'm uncertain about whether to use cold or hot, like after an hour lu nch stop, I'll hit the boost for just a second first. >> Hope it works for you. >> Tim >> >> >>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:42 PM, Charles Plumery wr ote: >>> >>> Tim, >>> Send me your trick for a hot start on FI engine. I have a friend that is always having problems with his setup. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Sent from my iPad, >>> Chuck >>> =9CA nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it c annot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongs t those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the al leys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears n ot a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears the ir face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in th e hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unk nown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body p olitic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.=9D >>> >>>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Tim Andres wrote: >>>> net> >>>> >>>> Fuel injected? If so PM me, it would be off topic here. >>>> I just learned a slick trick for hot start on a FI engine. >>>> Tim >>>> >>>>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:01 PM, John Morgensen wrote : >>>>> n.com> >>>>> >>>>> The starter is a sky tech lightweight on an IO-320. Cold starts are on e or two blades. Hot starts are still a learning process and the starter can occasionally get a work-out. >>>>> >>>>> When I was stranded in Chandler, the airplane had flown 3 hours cross c ountry day vfr and then parked for 2 weeks. The battery should have been ful ly charged. >>>>> >>>>> There should not be any drain on the battery with the master off. P-ma gs are wired to the main bus. The only thing on the battery bus is the cigar ette lighter and the switch to the essential bus. >>>>> >>>>> When I get to the hanger, I will test for any current flow on the batt ery. Is there any thing else I can measure/test that might shed some light o n the problem? >>>>> >>>>> john >>>>> >>>>>> On 1/30/2014 8:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Good. The self-discharge rate on RG batteries >>>>>> is very low . . . there's probably no value in >>>>>> hooking an airplane to the wall outlet as long as >>>>>> it's flown every month . . . or more often. >>>>>> >>>>>> There's something going on with your airplane >>>>>> at appears abusive to the battery. What kind >>>>>> of starter? Are your starting events expeditious? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.================= ========================== =========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUM"http://forums.mat ronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> <======================== ============ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> //forums.matronics.com >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> >> >> >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> //forums.matronics.com >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Bar At 07:33 AM 1/31/2014, you wrote: > >The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I >have tried to get these add to my product line, but complications >regarding size and quantity have delayed the deal. > >Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper weighs. But how would that work? What thickness of cladding are you looking for? Same question goes to the advantages offered by copper clad aluminum wire. Copper and aluminum are not that far separated for resistance so for the addition of copper to reduce cross section of aluminum for purposes of conserving energy is minimal . . . the copper is not likely to be more than a few mils thick. On the other hand, that thin layer of copper greatly benefits the installer's ability to secure a high quality, gas-tight connection with the aluminum either by crimping or soldering. A short-fall that has plagued the use of aluminum wiring for decades. Are you asserting that a copper clad, aluminum bus material will weigh half that of an equivalency in copper because cladding has improved on conductivity . . . our just connectivity . . . or both? And what is the expected weight savings for having substituted aluminum for copper in a piece that is 3-4 inches long? A copper bus 4 x .75 x .062 inches is about 0.2 cu inch (3.2 cu-cm) of copper for a weight on the order of 30 grams. What is the return on investment for saving less than 15 grams of weight with the application of a sophisticated bus-bar material? The copper clad wires of significant length can have some savings of scale that are attractive . . . savings that don't seem to repeat with bus-bar material. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:24 AM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Bar I've used 1100 aluminum sheet for several bus bars on various airplanes. My own plane has been flying for 7 years and 1300 hrs with 0 bus issues. I put a drop of CorrosionX on each screw hoping it will help prevent any corrosion taking root at the connection. I found the ratio for resistance for alum/copper and sized it accordingly. Cheap, light, great conductor. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > At 07:33 AM 1/31/2014, you wrote: > >> emjones@charter.net> >> >> The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I have >> tried to get these add to my product line, but complications regarding size >> and quantity have delayed the deal. >> >> Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper >> weighs. >> > > But how would that work? What thickness > of cladding are you looking for? Same > question goes to the advantages offered > by copper clad aluminum wire. > > Copper and aluminum are not that far > separated for resistance so for the addition > of copper to reduce cross section of aluminum > for purposes of conserving energy is minimal . . . > the copper is not likely to be more than a few > mils thick. > > On the other hand, that thin layer of copper > greatly benefits the installer's ability to > secure a high quality, gas-tight connection with > the aluminum either by crimping or soldering. > A short-fall that has plagued the use of > aluminum wiring for decades. > > Are you asserting that a copper clad, aluminum > bus material will weigh half that of an > equivalency in copper because cladding > has improved on conductivity . . . our just > connectivity . . . or both? And what is the > expected weight savings for having substituted > aluminum for copper in a piece that is > 3-4 inches long? > > A copper bus 4 x .75 x .062 inches is about > 0.2 cu inch (3.2 cu-cm) of copper for a > weight on the order of 30 grams. What is > the return on investment for saving less than > 15 grams of weight with the application of a > sophisticated bus-bar material? > > The copper clad wires of significant length > can have some savings of scale that are > attractive . . . savings that don't seem > to repeat with bus-bar material. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:30 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Bar From: "Eric M. Jones" > Copper and aluminum are not that far > separated for resistance...Bob N.) Bob, There are many ways to measure conductivity. But when you care about weight: The Figure of Merit is Conductivity per unit mass (x 1000) Aluminum =137 Copper = 66 So Aluminum is more than twice as conductive per unit mass as Copper. And it would be a whole lot cheaper too, except that every piece of Copper-Clad Aluminum is custom built. The CCA I use to make battery cables is 10% (by diameter) Copper and 90% Aluminum. The electric company just uses plain aluminum and employs special mean to terminate the wires. One big advantage of CCA is that it has very low scrap value (thus no theft). Furthermore the price can be set and guaranteed going into the future because Aluminum's price is very stable. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417952#417952 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/copper_cables_aluminum_cables_656.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question From: "rkharr" My RV-6 has been flying 12 years now with an electrical system based on the Z diagrams. Now I am assisting my wife complete her RV-7 electrical system. She has chosen to use the VPX Pro unit and wants to incorporate a "backup" source of power for clearances, engine start, and "endurance" (if the VPX box were to quit). The circuit that we are considering uses a bridge diode that would allow the main battery to supplement the "backup" battery for increased endurance. Since I have not seen this variation before, there must be a "gotcha" that I haven't found. Attached is a picture of the basic circuit. Any suggestions and/or comments would be appreciated. -------- Ken RV-6 South Carolina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417953#417953 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/essential_bus_237.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:57 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question My first question would be why add the complexity of a second electrical system, when virtually all situations can be handled by either backup battery for EFIS, ship's battery or just plain old magnetos. On 1/31/2014 12:53 PM, rkharr wrote: > > My RV-6 has been flying 12 years now with an electrical system based on the Z diagrams. Now I am assisting my wife complete her RV-7 electrical system. She has chosen to use the VPX Pro unit and wants to incorporate a "backup" source of power for clearances, engine start, and "endurance" (if the VPX box were to quit). > The circuit that we are considering uses a bridge diode that would allow the main battery to supplement the "backup" battery for increased endurance. Since I have not seen this variation before, there must be a "gotcha" that I haven't found. Attached is a picture of the basic circuit. Any suggestions and/or comments would be appreciated. > > -------- > Ken > RV-6 > South Carolina > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417953#417953 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/essential_bus_237.jpg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.