---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/03/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: 12V to 9V converter (Richard Girard) 2. 05:23 AM - Re: 12V to 9V converter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:28 AM - Re: Essential Bus question (Richard Girard) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: 12V to 9V converter (Richard Girard) 5. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: 12V to 9V converter (Etienne Phillips) 6. 08:02 AM - Re: Analyze This (user9253) 7. 10:42 AM - Re: Analyze This (user9253) 8. 10:51 AM - Re: Essential Bus question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Analyze This (Jeff Luckey) 10. 12:58 PM - Re: Essential Bus question (Richard Girard) 11. 04:03 PM - Re: Analyze This (user9253) 12. 05:26 PM - Re: Essential Bus question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 06:24 PM - Re: Essential Bus question (Richard Girard) 14. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Analyze This (Jeff Luckey) 15. 07:08 PM - Re: Essential Bus question (Tim Andres) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12V to 9V converter From: Richard Girard Bob, Yes, they are the standard 9V battery as you pictured. The vario has two, but they are switched so that only one is used at a time. Not much worse, at least in a hang glider, than being 40 miles out on a cross country flight and having your vario go down for a depleted battery. Rick On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Bob, I have an old (30+ years) Hall variometer that I want to put in my > trike. It's powered by 9V batteries so it seems an easy enough project to > use a converter to power it off the dynamo on the HKS engine. 2 amps should > be more than enough output. There are quite a few vendors on eBay that > offer them for $2 or so. Do you have any favorite vendors for this kind of > thing? > > Rick Girard > > > What kind of 9v batteries? These things? > > [image: Emacs!] > > More than one? How many and do you KNOW > they are in parallel and not series for > +/- supply to the electronics? > > > Bob . . . > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12V to 9V converter At 07:07 AM 2/3/2014, you wrote: >Bob, Yes, they are the standard 9V battery as you pictured. The >vario has two, but they are switched so that only one is used at a >time. Not much worse than being 40 miles out on a cross country >flight and having your vario go down for a depleted battery. Okay. Devices that operate from this style of battery don't take much current. Suggest you cobble this circuit up on a piece of perf-board . . . [] For 9v out, make R1 a FIXED 1500 ohm resistor. You won't even need to heat sink the regulator. Both resistors can be 1/4 watt or larger. Capacitors rated for 15v or more. Radio Shack probably has all the parts you need . . .or I can drop you a care-package . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question From: Richard Girard Bob, There is more than inconvenience to not having engine instruments if you fly with a Rotax. Unlike the LyConosaurs, these engines are so tight, the wear limit on a piston is only .0015" and a standard new fit is .0000" to .0009", that to lose oil pressure is catastrophic within seconds. The example that I saw in school was an engine that the owner had hooked the oil hoses up backward. On first start up the engine ran for less than 10 seconds before it threw a rod and blew a big hole in the engine case. Rick Girard On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 06:14 PM 2/2/2014, you wrote: > >> tim2542@sbcglobal.net> >> >> Not to argue your points Bob, and I agree simple is often better, but I >> would just add that I don't want to wait 20 seconds for the screens to >> reboot after engine start as my engine data is there also and I want see >> oil pressure etc right away. >> > > Yeah . . . that's an old saw that has been around > since the Curtis Jenny . . . when sheared oil pump > shafts were relatively common . . . along with a > host of other ills associated with vintage engines. > > I've never encountered a pilot who's oil pump died > at startup. I've flown lots of airplanes in cold > weather that didn't show any pressure for 30-45 > seconds after start. > > > And I much prefer to enter a lengthy flight plan with the prop off as my >> attention will be focused inside the plane, I'll admit on occasion I've >> looked up from the panel and discovered the plane moving. My flight plan >> will then be lost when I then crank the engine, unless I save it to memory, >> which I won't unless I'm using it again. >> > > And sometimes I take off with a hot engine, I'd rather not sit with the >> already hot engine running in the summer heat while I enter several >> waypoints in the Garmin. >> > > You mean its stored waypoints go away during > reboot? > > >> To me it's worth the 5lbs for the convenience, and the cost is easily >> overcome in fuel not burned. >> The beauty of EAB, built what you want, then live with your decisions. >> > > Absolutely. But why 5#? What did Eric decide about > his brown-out eliminator? Perhaps we still need > to refine the electronic bus-booster idea . . . it > weights a few ounces and has no periodic maintenance > requirements. Of course, a battery used only for > brownout protection can be run until it dies . . . > as long as the pilot doesn't included it in his/her > calculations for battery only endurance. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12V to 9V converter From: Richard Girard Bob, Thanks. For the purposes of learning a thing or two, I'll stop at RS this afternoon and pick up the parts. Looks like we're going to be house bound for a couple of days, if the weather guessers have it right, so a little project like this will be a welcome relief. Rick do not archive On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:07 AM 2/3/2014, you wrote: > > Bob, Yes, they are the standard 9V battery as you pictured. The vario has > two, but they are switched so that only one is used at a time. Not much > worse than being 40 miles out on a cross country flight and having your > vario go down for a depleted battery. > > > Okay. Devices that operate from this style of battery > don't take much current. Suggest you cobble this circuit > up on a piece of perf-board . . . > > [image: []] > > For 9v out, make R1 a FIXED 1500 ohm resistor. You won't > even need to heat sink the regulator. Both resistors can > be 1/4 watt or larger. Capacitors rated for 15v or more. > Radio Shack probably has all the parts you need . . .or I > can drop you a care-package . . . > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12V to 9V converter From: Etienne Phillips Hi Bob You could also use an LM7809... It's the same as the LM317, but already set to 9V, and doesn't require the external resistor divider. Although I have used it fairly reliably without the input and output smoothing capacitors, I would still recommend putting them in to assure stability. Thanks Etienne On 3 February 2014 15:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:07 AM 2/3/2014, you wrote: > > Bob, Yes, they are the standard 9V battery as you pictured. The vario has > two, but they are switched so that only one is used at a time. Not much > worse than being 40 miles out on a cross country flight and having your > vario go down for a depleted battery. > > > Okay. Devices that operate from this style of battery > don't take much current. Suggest you cobble this circuit > up on a piece of perf-board . . . > > [image: []] > > For 9v out, make R1 a FIXED 1500 ohm resistor. You won't > even need to heat sink the regulator. Both resistors can > be 1/4 watt or larger. Capacitors rated for 15v or more. > Radio Shack probably has all the parts you need . . .or I > can drop you a care-package . . . > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:13 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This From: "user9253" The 60 amp fuse protects battery A from an alternator short circuit, but there is no fuse to protect battery B. Either relocate the 60 amp fuse to the alternator side of the diodes or else add a second 60 amp fuse. A single shunt could be located in the alternator B lead and eliminate the ammeter selector switch. Or a 3 position selector switch and a third shunt could measure alternator output. Battery current shunts will carry very little current most of the time except after engine start. There have been lots of discussions about the best location for a shunt or if it is actually needed. It is a matter of personal preference. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418032#418032 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This From: "user9253" When the alternator fails, there should be a way to shut off the alternator field to conserve battery energy. Either a pullable circuit breaker or an independent switch. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418036#418036 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question At 07:27 AM 2/3/2014, you wrote: >Bob, There is more than inconvenience to not having engine >instruments if you fly with a Rotax. Unlike the LyConosaurs, these >engines are so tight, the wear limit on a piston is only .0015" and >a standard new fit is .0000" to .0009", that to lose oil pressure is >catastrophic within seconds. The example that I saw in school was an >engine that the owner had hooked the oil hoses up backward. On first >start up the engine ran for less than 10 seconds before it threw a >rod and blew a big hole in the engine case. Back in the day, the oil pressure gage was the same device on grandpa's Ferguson tractor . . . a pressure gage plumbed to the engine with a small diameter tube. In cold weather, the 50W oil would turn to road tar in the tubing and delay accurate readings of the gage by many seconds. If I had an engine so critically vulnerable to low oil pressure, then I'd add a pressure switch as close as practical to the engine plumbed in with any transducer intended to drive electronics. 10 seconds to destruct because the oil pressure was absent on THAT start? Broke a rod because the piston fits got tight? I'm skeptical. Pistons seizing up progressively in the bores will load up the engine until it stalls. I worked a Rotax 912 accident that the owner tried to blame on an electrical issue with ignition. I proved the ignition system to be intact . . . but in the accident narrative, the owner had taxied around for 30+ minutes 'getting the feel of the airplane' before he decided to take off. On climb out the engine slowly lost power . . . as if somebody was closing the throttle. He descended into the trees, destroyed the airplane and received a back injury. I told my client attorney that they should do a teardown of the engine and inspect cylinders for signs of seizing due to overheat. Whether engine seizes due to poor oil, air or water flow, the behavior is the same. I'll bet that engine had been in trouble for some time and only decided to give up the ghost on that start- event. It probably would have shelled out pretty soon whether it had oil pressure or not. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:19 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This both of those things are on the drawing...=0A=0AThx for reviewing,=0A=0A-Je ff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: user9253 =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, Februar y 3, 2014 10:41 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This=0A =0A=0A =0AWhen the alternator fails, there should be a way to shut off the alterna tor field to conserve battery energy.- Either a pullable circuit breaker or an independent switch.=0AJoe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARea d this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p =========================0A - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Adm ===== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question From: Richard Girard Bob, As one Rotax mechanic I know put it quite succinctly, "The worst enemy of the Rotax 912 is their owners". As for the blown up engine I saw, the school I attended was taught by the owner of the Rotax North American distributorship. I cannot fathom why he would make up such a story. If the owner had followed the manual, prelubed the engine, and then burped the oil system (the 912 has a dry sump oiling system that has no scavenge pump but instead relies upon blow by to pressurize the crankcase and push the oil out) he'd never have had a problem. Rick do not archive On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 07:27 AM 2/3/2014, you wrote: > >> Bob, There is more than inconvenience to not having engine instruments if >> you fly with a Rotax. Unlike the LyConosaurs, these engines are so tight, >> the wear limit on a piston is only .0015" and a standard new fit is .0000" >> to .0009", that to lose oil pressure is catastrophic within seconds. The >> example that I saw in school was an engine that the owner had hooked the >> oil hoses up backward. On first start up the engine ran for less than 10 >> seconds before it threw a rod and blew a big hole in the engine case. >> > > > Back in the day, the oil pressure gage was the same > device on grandpa's Ferguson tractor . . . a pressure > gage plumbed to the engine with a small diameter > tube. > > In cold weather, the 50W oil would turn to road > tar in the tubing and delay accurate readings of > the gage by many seconds. > > If I had an engine so critically vulnerable to > low oil pressure, then I'd add a pressure switch > as close as practical to the engine plumbed in > with any transducer intended to drive electronics. > > 10 seconds to destruct because the oil pressure > was absent on THAT start? Broke a rod because the > piston fits got tight? I'm skeptical. Pistons > seizing up progressively in the bores will > load up the engine until it stalls. > > I worked a Rotax 912 accident that the owner tried to > blame on an electrical issue with ignition. I proved > the ignition system to be intact . . . but in the > accident narrative, the owner had taxied around for > 30+ minutes 'getting the feel of the airplane' before > he decided to take off. On climb out the engine > slowly lost power . . . as if somebody was closing > the throttle. He descended into the trees, destroyed > the airplane and received a back injury. I told my > client attorney that they should do a teardown > of the engine and inspect cylinders for signs of > seizing due to overheat. Whether engine seizes > due to poor oil, air or water flow, the behavior is > the same. > > I'll bet that engine had been in trouble for some > time and only decided to give up the ghost on that start- > event. It probably would have shelled out pretty > soon whether it had oil pressure or not. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:39 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This From: "user9253" Suppose the alternator shorts to ground and the 60 amp fuse blows. Is there a chance that a 100 amp current limiter will also blow? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418042#418042 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question At 02:57 PM 2/3/2014, you wrote: >Bob, As one Rotax mechanic I know put it quite succinctly, "The >worst enemy of the Rotax 912 is their owners". >As for the blown up engine I saw, the school I attended was taught >by the owner of the Rotax North American distributorship. I cannot >fathom why he would make up such a story. If the owner had followed >the manual, prelubed the engine, and then burped the oil system (the >912 has a dry sump oiling system that has no scavenge pump but >instead relies upon blow by to pressurize the crankcase and push the >oil out) he'd never have had a problem. But a broken rod in 10 seconds? Rod failures tend to be the byproduct of hammering of the end cap after the bearing is worn . . . a process that takes hours. To break the rod with the torque offered by a seized bearing that lacked lubrication for 10 seconds doesn't fit with the physics. You cited tight fits for the pistons and segued to a broken rod. To be sure, we don't have the benefit of failure analysis on the subject engine but using what appears to be capitalization of outlier event to re-enforce a perfectly reasonable caution to be certain of engine lubrication smells of "teaching by sensationalism." This sort of teaching is core to many the useless if not expensive ol' mechanic's tales that plague our community. I'm not calling him a liar . . . but I am skeptical based on the cause/effect cited. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question From: Richard Girard Bob, You also have to take into account that unlike the LyCo's, the Rotax has a five piece crank that is pressed together with nothing but the pressure of the fit to keep it together and aligned. I would imagine the trail of tears would include a piston seizure that causes the crank to come out of alignment which not only destroys a bearing or two, but gives the various crank sections a chance to beat upon each other. The reason for the multipiece crank is so that it can be made shorter by reducing the clearance between the side of the rod, see picture. With so little clearance between the rod and the adjacent crank web the twisted, misaligned crank now has a chance to really start beating on the rods, the piston skirts, and any pieces that have come loose. Of course the Rotax engineers have reduced clearances between the rotating assembly and the case halves to shave off more weight and by now the bearings are not only being twisted out of their seats but the case webs are being hammered, too. Well, that's about all I can conjecture about the cause and effect trail, but you get the idea. Rotax engines are just a different animal. Rick do not archive On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 02:57 PM 2/3/2014, you wrote: > >> Bob, As one Rotax mechanic I know put it quite succinctly, "The worst >> enemy of the Rotax 912 is their owners". >> As for the blown up engine I saw, the school I attended was taught by the >> owner of the Rotax North American distributorship. I cannot fathom why he >> would make up such a story. If the owner had followed the manual, prelubed >> the engine, and then burped the oil system (the 912 has a dry sump oiling >> system that has no scavenge pump but instead relies upon blow by to >> pressurize the crankcase and push the oil out) he'd never have had a >> problem. >> > > But a broken rod in 10 seconds? Rod failures > tend to be the byproduct of hammering of the > end cap after the bearing is worn . . . a process > that takes hours. To break the rod with the > torque offered by a seized bearing that > lacked lubrication for 10 seconds doesn't > fit with the physics. You cited tight fits > for the pistons and segued to a broken > rod. > > To be sure, we don't have the benefit of > failure analysis on the subject engine > but using what appears to be capitalization > of outlier event to re-enforce a perfectly > reasonable caution to be certain of engine > lubrication smells of "teaching by > sensationalism." This sort of teaching is core > to many the useless if not expensive > ol' mechanic's tales that plague our > community. > > I'm not calling him a liar . . . but I am > skeptical based on the cause/effect cited. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:33 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyze This I would say it's highly unlikely. The 100 amp might warm up but the 60 shou ld hit its melting point before the 100.- I don't know how the resistance of a fuse that's in the process of blowing changes.- If its resistance g oes up, it would begin to limit the current for a few milliseconds until it clears.=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: user9253 =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent : Monday, February 3, 2014 4:02 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Analyz w@gmail.com>=0A=0ASuppose the alternator shorts to ground and the 60 amp fu se blows.- Is there a chance that a 100 amp current limiter will also blo w?=0AJoe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online her e:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418042#418042=0A=0A = ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus question From: Tim Andres I think the multi piece crank is needed when they use one piece rods with ro ller bearings. Still hard to imagine a 10 sec failure. An oil change now bec omes a major event in the life of your engine! Tim > On Feb 3, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > > Bob, You also have to take into account that unlike the LyCo's, the Rotax h as a five piece crank that is pressed together with nothing but the pressure of the fit to keep it together and aligned. I would imagine the trail of te ars would include a piston seizure that causes the crank to come out of alig nment which not only destroys a bearing or two, but gives the various crank s ections a chance to beat upon each other. The reason for the multipiece cran k is so that it can be made shorter by reducing the clearance between the si de of the rod, see picture. With so little clearance between the rod and the adjacent crank web the twisted, misaligned crank now has a chance to really start beating on the rods, the piston skirts, and any pieces that have come loose. Of course the Rotax engineers have reduced clearances between the ro tating assembly and the case halves to shave off more weight and by now the b earings are not only being twisted out of their seats but the case webs are b eing hammered, too. > Well, that's about all I can conjecture about the cause and effect trail, b ut you get the idea. Rotax engines are just a different animal. > > Rick > do not archive > > >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: lls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 02:57 PM 2/3/2014, you wrote: >>> Bob, As one Rotax mechanic I know put it quite succinctly, "The worst en emy of the Rotax 912 is their owners". >>> As for the blown up engine I saw, the school I attended was taught by th e owner of the Rotax North American distributorship. I cannot fathom why he w ould make up such a story. If the owner had followed the manual, prelubed th e engine, and then burped the oil system (the 912 has a dry sump oiling syst em that has no scavenge pump but instead relies upon blow by to pressurize t he crankcase and push the oil out) he'd never have had a problem. >> >> But a broken rod in 10 seconds? Rod failures >> tend to be the byproduct of hammering of the >> end cap after the bearing is worn . . . a process >> that takes hours. To break the rod with the >> torque offered by a seized bearing that >> lacked lubrication for 10 seconds doesn't >> fit with the physics. You cited tight fits >> for the pistons and segued to a broken >> rod. >> >> To be sure, we don't have the benefit of >> failure analysis on the subject engine >> but using what appears to be capitalization >> of outlier event to re-enforce a perfectly >> reasonable caution to be certain of engine >> lubrication smells of "teaching by >> sensationalism." This sort of teaching is core >> to many the useless if not expensive >> ol' mechanic's tales that plague our >> community. >> >> I'm not calling him a liar . . . but I am >> skeptical based on the cause/effect cited. >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ========================= >> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- List >> ========================= >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========================= >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= > > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy .. > - Groucho Marx > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.