---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/09/14: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:45 AM - Z13/8 Main Alternator. (MikeDunlop) 2. 07:58 AM - Re: When are diodes needed? (user9253) 3. 08:47 AM - Re: noise problem on radio (Sacha) 4. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: When are diodes needed? (Thomas Blejwas) 5. 10:30 AM - Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. (Bill Allen) 6. 11:19 AM - Re: When are diodes needed? (user9253) 7. 12:52 PM - EI MVP-50 on E Bay (John McMahon) 8. 01:15 PM - Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: When are diodes needed? (Jeff Luckey) 10. 01:22 PM - Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. (MikeDunlop) 11. 01:32 PM - Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. (MikeDunlop) 12. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: When are diodes needed? (Bob McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z13/8 Main Alternator. From: "MikeDunlop" I'm finishing off my electrical system in a Long-EZ that includes the SD-8, exactly as per the Z13/8 and have to make a final choice of the main alternator. For cost and availability locally I've decided to go with either a Lucas 60amp or 70amp. The advice I'm seeking is regarding the regulator, these units have an internal regulator, so do I keep the internal regulator? (remember the Z13/8 has the OV protection between the regulator and the bus) or do I do a conversion to use a B&C external regulator (I have a spare one I could use). I've read many, many threads on OV and runaway alternators etc. and am not too sure if using the internal regulator in the Z13/8 architecture will give me complete protection. Regards Mike Dunlop (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421821#421821 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? From: "user9253" It is unlikely that a battery will be bad enough that the other "good" battery would feed it. A more important reason for isolating the two fuel pump circuits in Z-19 is to prevent alternator charging current from back-feeding through small wires and fuses intended to carry only the fuel pump load. There is more than one version of Z-07. Looking at revision 5, the diode in the "Engine B" wire prevents engine starting current and main bus load current from flowing through the "Engine B" wire from the Aux battery. I do not know what you mean by diodes "smoothing" the feed. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421822#421822 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise problem on radio From: Sacha I'm back trying to look for a solution to my noise problem on the radio. The original thread was started in Feb so for those who missed it, the installation is a Rotax 912UL on a Kitfox with a Trio Avionics Propilot Autopilot, a GNS430 and a GMA240 audio panel. The mag leads are unshielded. I think is a NEW problem, as the first few hours of flying this installation did not seem to present this problem. I say I think because I'm not 100% sure here because I don't think I turned the a/p on during the first few flights (it was a year ago). The noise appears in the form of an RX signal in the GNS430, and is correlated to two things: - the a/p box being on (not necessarily the servos though) - the engine RPM being above 3800 RPM Specifically, when the a/p is off, I never hear any noise. And when the a/p is on and the RPM is below 3500 (e.g. in a descent) the noise can be squelched off by the audio panel (though the radio still shows an RX signal). But if I'm in a climb and have the a/p on then the only way I can get rid of the noise is by turning the volume of the audio panel right down (the volume of the GNS430 radio does not affect the loudness of the noise). I have tried to turn up the squelch on the GNS430 but I'm not sure I'm doing it right. I press the volume button once and then turn it, but it doesn't appear that the pressing the button makes any difference. Am I doing something wrong there? Below are the answers to some of Bob N's previous suggestions. > On 27 Feb 2014, at 15:15, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > No, I haven't. Is it worth getting my hands on an SWR meter? > > If your shield ground is loose at the radio, it can open a > pathway for conducting otherwise insignificant > signals into the receiver. > > If you don't have ready access to one, hold off acquiring > it. But check the mechanical integrity of your coax > connections at the back of the radio. How well does the > comm transceiver work? Have you detected any shortfall > in performance? > The coax connections look ok mechanically. And the com transceiver appears to work fine, although I haven't tried it over longer distances. > > http://www.trioavionics.com/Pro%20Pilot%20Manual%203.8.pdf > > Okay . . . that's a busy little box. Refresh my > memory, is this noise a new thing or has it always > been present. Also, when receiving a weak signal > (tune in an ATIS and fly away from airport until > signal starts to get noisy . . . then turn a/p > on/off and judge how much effect the a/p noise > has on reception of weak signals). I'll try that next time I can get an ATIS (I am 60 miles from the nearest ATIS and not in theory allowed to fly more than 500 feet above the nearest obstacle in a 3 mile radius, so it's quite difficult to get reception). > > I sniffed around yesterday with the handheld and its regular antenna. What > I noticed was that as soon as I switch on the Avionics and the handheld > antenna is close to them, I hear a bunch of noise, but I guess that's > normal. When I switch on the AP and move the handheld antenna close to the > servo cables (that are shielded), I can hear a stronger kind of buzzing > noise. I really have to be almost touching those shielded cables though in > order to pick anything up. I didn't try putting the antenna close to the > radio's COM coax connector though. > > You wont see any noise coming OUT of this junction, > but it is a potential point of ingress for noises > that tend to pile up behind the panel. > > Do you have any pictures of how to build these? Is this > http://www.emcesd.com/tt120100.htm the right idea? > > Yes! good find. I got a little ahead of myself > in sifting the simple ideas. Don't run off and build > one (or e-field probe) yet. > > It's not clear to me yet as to operational significance > of the noise. DO-160 ALLOWS certain levels of noise > while putting potential victims ON NOTICE that such > noises may be present but normally insignificant. > > My sense of the situation from your narrative > so far is that while the A/P is a noteworthy > contributor . . . it's not the sole potential > antagonist . . . we may discover that it is > within practical limits and you just need to > tighten the squelch on the receiver a tad. I tried (see above) but not sure I'm doing it right. > > I think I've related my experiences with the > symphony of noises that are often heard in > various systems while sitting on the ground > with engines off and wearing headphones . . . > noises that are completely insignificant > while in flight. > > Let's size the task before we get out hammers- > n-saws. > > Bob . . . > Sacha ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:22 AM PST US From: Thomas Blejwas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? Thanks Joe,=0A=0AI now understand the potential problem with feeding throug h small wires and fuses.- Embarrassed that I missed it. -"Smoothing" wa s not really what I should have said.- I have been told that, when two su pplies-through diodes are connected to a-component, the diodes ensure t hat the one with the higher voltage supplies the current.- As the voltage in-that one drops, the transition to the other is seamless.- True?- -Without the diodes, I have two batteries in parallel,-which yields an average voltage, assuming similar internal resistances.- Not clear to me the advantage of one over the other.- =0A=0AThanks again for your help. -=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> F rom: user9253 =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:54 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: R e: When are diodes needed?=0A> =0A>=0A>--> AeroElectric-List message poste d by: "user9253" =0A>=0A>It is unlikely that a battery w ill be bad enough that the other "good" battery would feed it.- A more im portant reason for isolating the two fuel pump circuits in Z-19 is to preve nt alternator charging current from back-feeding through small wires and fu ses intended to carry only the fuel pump load.=0A>There is more than one ve rsion of Z-07.- Looking at revision 5, the diode in the "Engine B" wire p revents engine starting current and main bus load current from flowing thro ugh the "Engine B" wire from the Aux battery.=0A>- I do not know what you mean by diodes "smoothing" the feed.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Joe Gores =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matro =========================0A =========================0A =========================0A >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13/8 Main Alternator. From: Bill Allen Hi Mike, So you're nearly finished? Will you be flying this year? If you come past in May/June Gary Hertzler will be here again for more Ez talk :^) Bill On 9 April 2014 15:44, MikeDunlop wrote: > > I'm finishing off my electrical system in a Long-EZ that includes the > SD-8, exactly as per the Z13/8 and have to make a final choice of the main > alternator. > > For cost and availability locally I've decided to go with either a Lucas > 60amp or 70amp. The advice I'm seeking is regarding the regulator, these > units have an internal regulator, so do I keep the internal regulator? > (remember the Z13/8 has the OV protection between the regulator and the > bus) or do I do a conversion to use a B&C external regulator (I have a > spare one I could use). > > I've read many, many threads on OV and runaway alternators etc. and am not > too sure if using the internal regulator in the Z13/8 architecture will > give me complete protection. > > Regards > > Mike Dunlop (UK) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421821#421821 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:56 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? From: "user9253" It is true that a load will draw current from whichever source has the higher voltage. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421830#421830 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: EI MVP-50 on E Bay From: John McMahon Just saw this for sale new & unopened unit on E Bay under Avionics and it is closing soon; if interested the link is: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141240683303?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 EI MVP-50 6 Cylinder Experimental Aircraft Engine Monitor -- John McMahon ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13/8 Main Alternator. At 09:44 AM 4/9/2014, you wrote: > >I'm finishing off my electrical system in a Long-EZ that includes >the SD-8, exactly as per the Z13/8 and have to make a final choice >of the main alternator. > >For cost and availability locally I've decided to go with either a >Lucas 60amp or 70amp. The advice I'm seeking is regarding the >regulator, these units have an internal regulator, so do I keep the >internal regulator? (remember the Z13/8 has the OV protection >between the regulator and the bus) or do I do a conversion to use a >B&C external regulator (I have a spare one I could use). > >I've read many, many threads on OV and runaway alternators etc. and >am not too sure if using the internal regulator in the Z13/8 >architecture will give me complete protection. Alternators with built in regulators . . . as a GENERAL rule, DO NOT feature ov protection consistent with legacy design goals. One exception I'm aware of is PlanePower who appears to be using a customized built-in regulator with crowbar ov protection and positive crew-controlled power to the field. At the time of this writing, it's the ONLY alternator offering that conforms to the legacy alternator control/ ov protection philosophy. I'm not sure if I understand your question . . . The SD-8 should be installed as shown in the drawing. Further, its ov protection, control and regulation is entirely independent of any choices you make for a main alternator. If you're contemplating an over-the-counter automotive alternator with built in regulator . . . it will PROBABLY perform as advertised. But it will not conform to the design goals adopted by all TC aircraft and the majority of OBAM aircraft. If you have a B&C alternator controller laying around, it's generally not difficult to modify any stock automotive machine to accept EXTERNAL power, regulation, and protection. If you're not up to the task of doing the mod, a local alternator repair shop may be willing/able to do it for you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:24 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? Joe,=0ANot sure how to answer without a little more context.- Can you giv e us a sketch of the circuit in question?=0A=0AIn the mean time, maybe this will help:=0A=0ACrude diode symbol: - ->|=0A=0A=0A=0ACurrent will flow t hru the diode (left to right) in the following circuit:=0A=0A5 volts -- --- --- - 4 volts=0A=0A---------- ->| ------------=0A=0A=0AC urrent will NOT flow backward (right to left) thru the diode in the followi ng circuit:=0A=0A4 volts -- --- --- - 5 volts=0A=0A------ ---- ->| ------------=0A=0AThe diode acts as a "check-valve" and prevents c urrent from flowing backwards=0A=0A=0AHope this helps=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A__ ______________________________=0A From: user9253 =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 11:18 AM =0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed?=0A =0A=0A--> Aer oElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" =0A=0AIt is true that a load will draw current from whichever source has the higher vo ltage.=0AJoe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421830#421830=0A = ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:38 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. From: "MikeDunlop" Bill, Nice to hear from you again, I've called by your hangar a few times but missed you. Yes I'm hoping to get things wrapped up soon and start the testing phase. I will definitely like to meet Gary again and talk EZ, I picked up some very useful information last time that made me change the cowling air intake design and the prop attachment method. Regards Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421841#421841 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:05 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/8 Main Alternator. From: "MikeDunlop" Bob, Thanks very much for the information. I will modify the alternator and use the B&C regulator. The SD-8 is installed exactly as per Z13/8, totally independent of the main alternator. Regards Mike (UK) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421843#421843 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:11 PM PST US From: Bob McCallum Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? Yes. All else being equal if you connect both a 12V and a 6V source in parallel to a single load without any other intervening components then the 12V sour ce will supply the load and the 6V source will sit idly by doing nothing. Bob McC > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: When are diodes needed? > From: fransew@gmail.com > Date: Wed=2C 9 Apr 2014 11:18:58 -0700 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > > It is true that a load will draw current from whichever source has the hi gher voltage. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421830#421830 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.