---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/30/14: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:19 AM - Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? (Sacha) 2. 07:44 AM - Re: lm7321 substatute (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:28 AM - Re: lm7321 substatute (Bill S) 4. 09:45 AM - Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? (John) 5. 09:56 AM - Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? (airelectricjim) 6. 11:43 AM - Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:21 PM - Re: lm7321 substatute (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:38 PM - Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Jeff Luckey) 9. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:42 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 01:14 PM - Re: lm7321 substatute (Bill S) 12. 01:27 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Jeff Luckey) 13. 01:36 PM - Re: lm7321 substatute (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 01:53 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Sacha) 15. 03:09 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:00 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Kelly McMullen) 17. 06:48 PM - Re: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? From: Sacha Thank you Jeff! do not archive > On Apr 30, 2014, at 6:44, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Mounting the battery on its side and the contactors horizontally is just f ine. It won't affect the operation of either device. > > > From: Sacha > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:41 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount hor izontally? > > > Quick question about Battery and contactor installation position: > > I am moving my battery aft and am planning to make an installation similar to the example on Bob's website at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Bat tery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html > Except that instead of having the (SVLA) battery upright I want it on its s ide. Is that ok? And is it ok to mount the master and starter contactors hor izontally (I'm planning to use rivnuts and bolt them to a horizontal sheet o f stainless steel) instead of using L-shctric-List" target="_blank">http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectrp; --> http:========= ============== > > > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute At 12:50 PM 4/29/2014, you wrote: > >Bob Can you recomend a substatute for a lm7321 opamp, in a din >package? The sot23 package is just tooooooo small for me to work >with. Thanks Bill S. What's the application? Can you share a schematic along with a description of function? There are probably 100+ suitable substitutes with rare exception . . . I don't want to offer substitute that stumbles over an exception. The LM7321 is a fine example of the current state of op-amp art. Low voltage performance, rail-to-rail input and outputs, lots of drive capability, etc. http://tinyurl.com/otlg7je However, depending on requirements for the circuit you're crafting, you may NEED few if any of these stellar features. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:48 AM PST US From: "Bill S" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute At 10:59 AM 12/22/2011, you wrote: >I am wanting to parllel two Ray Allen RP3 led position indicators useing >only one POS5 position sensor. RAC said that thay wont work just parelling >them and that I need to add another position sensor or a switch which I >would rather not do. Can anyone sudjest an electrical ckt. that would work >for this? Thanks Bill S. > You need a 'buffer-amplifier' between the position feedback potentiometer and ONE of the two indicators. The problem with paralleling the two indicators arises from the fact that they're not a 'high impedance' voltmeter. The system is calibrated for one pot driving one indicator. Adding a second indicator doubles the load on the position signal from the potentiometer. The 'fix' is to convert one of the indicators into a high-impedance voltmeter. You need an operational amplifier with rail-to-rail inputs and outputs. A device like the LM7321 would probably work. http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/LM7321MF%2FNOPB/LM7321MFCT-ND/1878646 Adding this device to the second indicator prevents it from loading the potentiometer. You need to fabricate something like this . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Ray-Allen_Dual_Indicators.pdf It could be fabricated on an etched circuit board that would fit inside a d-sub connector back shell. Bob . . . >>Bob Can you recomend a substatute for a lm7321 opamp, in a din package? >>The sot23 package is just tooooooo small for me to work with. Thanks >>Bill S. > > What's the application? Can you share a schematic > along with a description of function? There are probably > 100+ suitable substitutes with rare exception . . . I > don't want to offer substitute that stumbles over > an exception. > > The LM7321 is a fine example of the current state > of op-amp art. Low voltage performance, rail-to-rail > input and outputs, lots of drive capability, etc. > > http://tinyurl.com/otlg7je > > However, depending on requirements for the circuit > you're crafting, you may NEED few if any of these > stellar features. > > > Bob . . . > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:38 AM PST US From: John Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Mounting position is definitely a consideration with some contactors. There are units that are designed for horizontal mounting, or are position insensitive, but there are others that are not. The Series 70 White-Rogers units, that have been very commonly used in aircraft for decades are position sensitive. Here is a link to some info: http://www.emersonclimate.com/Documents/White-Rodgers/sell_sheets/R-4003web.pdf This literature recommends dome, or cap, down. Depending on whether the unit is used as a master or start "solenoid", some recommend mounting dome up These solenoid/contactors will seem to work OK either way, but there is more potential wear and possibility of binding or improper operation if they are operated horizontally. /John / ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? From: "airelectricjim" Hi, Jeff, A word of caution for rivnuts: Be sure that you use rivnuts that are HARDER than the substrate, in your case stainless steel. Rivnuts have a bad habit of loosening in their holes, making the bolt nigh onto impossible to unscrew. Don't ask me how I know! This might be even worse if you use aluminum rivnuts, as there will be corrosion between the metals, which will act as a lubricant. Jim do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422600#422600 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? At 11:44 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote: Mounting position is definitely a consideration with some contactors. There are units that are designed for horizontal mounting, or are position insensitive, but there are others that are not. The Series 70 White-Rogers units, that have been very commonly used in aircraft for decades are position sensitive. Here is a link to some info: http://www.emersonclimate.com/Documents/White-Rodgers/sell_sheets/R-4003web.pdf This literature recommends dome, or cap, down. Depending on whether the unit is used as a master or start "solenoid", some recommend mounting dome up These solenoid/contactors will seem to work OK either way, but there is more potential wear and possibility of binding or improper operation if they are operated horizontally. We've had some discussion about both alleged and demonstrated position sensitivity of these contactors here on the List . . . here is but one of several dialogs . . . http://tinyurl.com/p8uv67n In other discussions we deduced that the W/R Type 70 is not well suited to starter contactor service even in the intermittent version. There are similarly priced contactors optimized for starter contactor service. http://tinyurl.com/n9sql7g http://tinyurl.com/o5turon As a battery contactor mounted in a location certain to be 'drip free', a horizontal mounting doesn't give rise to great concerns. In any case, concerns for in-flight g-loading of contactors has no demonstrable foundation in physics or practice. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute At 10:27 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote: > OOOPS! The 7321 was my selection . . . not sure why I went with SOT23 only except that my head was probably thinking about packaging in the dsub housing . . . Refresh my memory, we ARE talking about a 5v system? This op amp would do the job http://tinyurl.com/ol9jm4v but it's limited to 7.5v max supply voltage. It IS in stock at Digikey at 0.88 each. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:28 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts (Please pardon the hijacking of this thread...)=0A=0A=0AJim,=0A=0AI wasn't the original poster on this thread.- I think it was Sacha.- However, sp eaking of Rivnuts...=0A=0AI've experienced some of the issues you are talki ng about.- The last few times I've used Rivnuts, I put an internal-tooth lockwasher on the back side of the Rivnut before squeezing it, so that it g ets clamped between the work surface and the bulge formed by squeezing.=0A =0AThis give some additional thickness for the Rivnut and some sharp edges to help prevent rotation years from now.- IIRC I had some difficulty find ing appropriate lock washers because they need to fit over the shank of the Rivnut with very little slop, otherwise the teeth won't be engaged by the bulge.- Ended up using metric lock washers because they fit the best over the shank of the #8 Rivnut.=0A=0ANot sure what the long term results will be since it has only been a year or two since I did this install - will let you know in 5-10 years ;)=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________ _________=0A From: airelectricjim =0ATo: aeroel ectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:55 AM=0ASubj ect: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount hori " =0A=0AHi, Jeff,=0AA word of caution for rivnu ts:- Be sure that you use rivnuts that are HARDER than the substrate, in your case stainless steel.- Rivnuts have a bad habit of loosening in thei r holes, making the bolt nigh onto impossible to unscrew.- - Don't ask me how I know!=0A=0AThis might be even worse if you use aluminum rivnuts, a s there will be corrosion between the metals, which will act as a lubricant .=0A=0AJim=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here: =0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422600#422600=0A=0A=0A ====================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? At 11:55 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote: > > >Hi, Jeff, >A word of caution for rivnuts: Be sure that you use rivnuts that >are HARDER than the substrate, in your case stainless >steel. Rivnuts have a bad habit of loosening in their holes, making >the bolt nigh onto impossible to unscrew. Don't ask me how I know! > >This might be even worse if you use aluminum rivnuts, as there will >be corrosion between the metals, which will act as a lubricant. Good catch Jim . . . rivnuts are problematic If he cannot get at the back side to install a real 10-32 nutplate, I think I'd fabricate a scab-on with nutplates to mount the contactor. The scab plate needs to have sufficient footprint so that pop-rivets used to fasten it to the aircraft surface are not under the contactor's mounting feet. I would then cut clearance holes in the aircraft surface for the nutplates and pop- rivet the scab with a half dozen or so aluminum rivets. This is the sure-bet prophylactic against that gut wrenching experience of having the rivnut spin in the hole while trying to dismount the contactor . . . just hate it when that happens! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts At 02:37 PM 4/30/2014, you wrote: >(Please pardon the hijacking of this thread...) > > >Jim, > >I wasn't the original poster on this thread. I think it was >Sacha. However, speaking of Rivnuts... > >I've experienced some of the issues you are talking about. The last >few times I've used Rivnuts, I put an internal-tooth lockwasher on >the back side of the Rivnut before squeezing it, so that it gets >clamped between the work surface and the bulge formed by squeezing. Nice vaccination against spinning rivnut syndrome . . . but if you could get at the back side, why not nutplates? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:54 PM PST US From: "Bill S" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute The opamp should be rated at least 15v min. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute > > > At 10:27 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote: >> > > OOOPS! The 7321 was my selection . . . not sure > why I went with SOT23 only except that my head > was probably thinking about packaging in the > dsub housing . . . > > Refresh my memory, we ARE talking about a 5v > system? This op amp would do the job > > http://tinyurl.com/ol9jm4v > > but it's limited to 7.5v max supply voltage. > It IS in stock at Digikey at 0.88 each. > > > Bob . . . > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:49 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 12:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis t: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about lls, III" =0A=0AAt 02:37 PM 4/30/2014, you w rote:=0A>(Please pardon the hijacking of this thread...)=0A>=0A>=0A>Jim,=0A >=0A>I wasn't the original poster on this thread.- I think it was =0A>Sac ha.- However, speaking of Rivnuts...=0A>=0A>I've experienced some of the issues you are talking about.- The last =0A>few times I've used Rivnuts, I put an internal-tooth lockwasher on =0A>the back side of the Rivnut befor e squeezing it, so that it gets =0A>clamped between the work surface and th e bulge formed by squeezing.=0A=0A- Nice vaccination against spinning ri vnut syndrome=0A- . . . but if you could get at the back side, why not =0A- nutplates?=0A=0AAgree - but that's the big IF - sometimes you just don't have enough space or access to use nutplates.- (It's just another a rrow in the "How am I gonna fix this GD thing" quiver.)-- -JL=0A=0A=0A = ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lm7321 substatute At 03:13 PM 4/30/2014, you wrote: > > >The opamp should be rated at least 15v min. Okay, this one should work http://tinyurl.com/llsm37s Let me know how this works for you . . . I'll revise my document on the website. I could also whack out a little ecb that would sit between the solder-cups on a d-sub and make it a whole lot easier to package . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts From: Sacha > I wasn't the original poster on this thread. I think it was > >Sacha. No need to apologize for "high jacking". I've gathered lots of food for thought which I will now attempt to digest in order to design the battery and contactor mount. Thank you all. I wanted to use rivnuts because they would allow me to permanently fix the steel plate and then bolt things onto it. The rivnuts I was going to use were steel ones. Of course I wasn't aware of the issues with them coming loose. I'm also having second thoughts about using a stainless steel base as I just weighed it and it's 1kg which seems like overkill. Sacha ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts > > >I'm also having second thoughts about using a stainless steel base >as I just weighed it and it's 1kg which seems like overkill. The SVLA battery is essentially leak proof. They cannot exude stuff that eats on your airplane. A tray with 1/2" sides to capture the battery's footprint is quite sufficient for a base. A couple of nylon straps, 1" wide with velcro closures are good for holding it down in the tray. You only need to grab the battery with enough security to withstand a 10g load. For an 18 Ah battery that's 200 pounds or less. A pair of 1" with velcro closures are good for MUCH more than this. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:52 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts If riveting a nut plate isn't possible, a Clickbond nutplate is next best thing, unless you cannot get to backside at all. On 4/30/2014 12:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 02:37 PM 4/30/2014, you wrote: >> (Please pardon the hijacking of this thread...) >> >> >> Jim, >> >> I wasn't the original poster on this thread. I think it was Sacha. >> However, speaking of Rivnuts... >> >> I've experienced some of the issues you are talking about. The last >> few times I've used Rivnuts, I put an internal-tooth lockwasher on >> the back side of the Rivnut before squeezing it, so that it gets >> clamped between the work surface and the bulge formed by squeezing. > > Nice vaccination against spinning rivnut syndrome > . . . but if you could get at the back side, why not > nutplates? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Battery and master contactor - ok to mount horizontally? Now about Rivnuts At 07:59 PM 4/30/2014, you wrote: > >If riveting a nut plate isn't possible, a Clickbond nutplate is next >best thing, unless you cannot get to backside at all. I would have suggested that . . . did an article in Kitplanes a few months ago that spoke to DIY bond-studs. All versions of this mounting mode disrupt the otherwise smooth mounting surface under the contactor's mounting feet. 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