---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/06/14: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:00 AM - Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? (user9253) 2. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:09 AM - Re: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? (Jeff Luckey) 4. 03:43 PM - Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? (eschlanser) 5. 04:07 PM - Re: Time delay, flicker filter etc. (GTH) 6. 04:36 PM - Re: Time delay, flicker filter etc. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:55 PM - Re: Single ground vs. distributed ground (Dragoon6) 9. 09:13 PM - Special Coax Connectors: Apollo Nav/Coms... (Dragoon6) 10. 09:32 PM - Re: Special Coax Connectors: Apollo Nav/Coms... (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:23 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? From: "user9253" > I thought that an LED was a type of diode. It seems like one should not have to stick a second diode on the circuit when using an LED. I do not think that either Bob or I recommending using a protection diode. I only offered a circuit containing one to help answer the question. Actually, I think that an incandescent lamp is more likely to fail than a LED. I think an indicator light (if used) should be connected in parallel with the starter motor, and not connected to the contactor coil. Then the lamp will illuminate whenever the starter motor is rotating and for whatever reason. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422877#422877 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? At 05:59 AM 5/6/2014, you wrote: > > > > I thought that an LED was a type of diode. It seems like one > should not have to stick a second diode on the circuit when using an LED. > >I do not think that either Bob or I recommending using a protection diode. Correct. My assertions went to the point of robust design goals. Here's how the protection diode works should one choose to include it. There are lots of airplanes flying with commerical off the shelf, internally regulated alternators too . . . without the legacy ov protection. Again, builder's choice. > I only offered a circuit containing one to help answer the > question. Actually, I think that an incandescent lamp is more > likely to fail than a LED. Agreed although in this case were talking about two different failure modes. Incandescent lamps will wear out and are subject to vibration. LEDs are essentially longer lived than the airplane itself assuming that it's free of all electrical over-stresses. > I think an indicator light (if used) should be connected in > parallel with the starter motor, and not connected to the contactor coil. Good catch. I missed that feature. Yes, the purpose of the light is to warn of a stuck starter contactor. Hence, it would be wired to the motor terminals. > Then the lamp will illuminate whenever the starter motor is > rotating and for whatever reason. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:59 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? =0A=0Acomments a the bottom...=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroe lectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, May 6, 2014 4:33 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from fai , III" =0A=0AAt 05:59 AM 5/6/2014, you wrote >=0A>=0A>=0A> > I thought that an LED was a type of diode. It seems like on e =0A> should not have to stick a second diode on the circuit when using an LED.=0A>=0A>I do not think that either Bob or I recommending using a prote ction diode.=0A=0A- - - Correct. My assertions went to the point of =0A- - - robust design goals. Here's how the protection=0A- - - diode works should one choose to include it.=0A- - - There are lots of airplanes flying with commerical=0A- - - off the shelf, internally regulated alternators=0A- - - too . . . without the legacy ov protec tion.=0A- - - Again, builder's choice.=0A=0A>- I only offered a ci rcuit containing one to help answer the =0A> question.- Actually, I think that an incandescent lamp is more =0A> likely to fail than a LED.=0A=0A- - - Agreed although in this case were talking about=0A- - - two different failure modes. Incandescent lamps=0A- - - will wear out and are subject to vibration.=0A- - - LEDs are essentially longer lived than the=0A- - - airplane itself assuming that it's free=0A- - - of all electrical over-stresses.=0A=0A>- I think an indicator light (if used) should be connected in =0A> parallel with the starter motor, and not connected to the contactor coil.=0A=0A- - - Good catch. I missed that feature. Yes,=0A- - - the purpose of the light is to warn of=0A - - - a stuck starter contactor. Hence, it=0A- - - would be wir ed to the motor terminals.=0A=0A=0A=0A>- Then the lamp will illuminate w henever the starter motor is =0A> rotating and for whatever reason.- Some one correct me if I am wrong.=0A=0AThe original drawing submitted by the or iginal poster showed the light across=0Athe motor terminals of the starter. =0A=0ACare must be taken to get on the correct terminal on the starter.- If you get =0Aan indicator, LED or incandescent, across the starter "shift" solenoid (that's=0Athe one built into the starter which engages the drive pinion) you=0Awill indeed have a dragon by the tail.- The inductive kick when the shift =0Asolenoid de-energizes is a flame-thrower.=0A=0A-Jeff=0A == ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? From: "eschlanser" Bob(s) and Joe, It's not about poor "service" from this list. Quite the contrary. And the great body of knowledge herein is why I came to this list to find out the answer to my questions. I have learned so much here it's why I have been able to create and wire my plane. Couldn't have done it without you. Not having full understanding of an LED is why I used the mini bulb. Your explanations made the use of the LED so much clearer that I could have used it had I seen your posts before I chickened out and installed the mini bulb. When the mini bulb fails, I'll try the LED. Although, the mini bulb has a 5k hours ave life! Also, I was not able to test the LED by running the starter. Also, the two original diagrams showing two different ways to add the diode to the circuit had me wondering which was correct. As far as monitoring the starter contactor rather than the terminals on the starter, I have to say I followed an old drawing I had from the aeroelectric.com site. It was http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Starter_Contactor/s702wire.jpg When I search for it now, I find I am not able to access it. It was a picture of an auto style start contactor with two large posts and two small posts. The small posts were labelled S and I. The picture said the I post could be used for a starter monitoring light. I'll agree the starter would be a better device to monitor. THanks for the tips. Eric Schlanser .. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422930#422930 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:48 PM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Time delay, flicker filter etc. Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit : > > > >> >> A time constant of 2 second would be adequate I suppose. >> Could some variation of the fuel level flicker filter do ? >> >> Thanks in advance for your suggestions, and keep on the good job > > Referring to the assembly details in . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/nxmo3us > > That comparator only has about 0.5% hysteresis . . . > try reducing the value of R108 down to 100K > which will raise the hysteresis by a factor of ~5x Hi Bob, Thank you for responding. What I did not state clearly is that somewhere along the build we switched from Aeroelectric's battery management module to Perihelion's because for some reasons we could not discover, the ABMM did not like the presence of EV200 contactors. Since the new battery management module is potted, I was wondering if a proper filter could be devised as a "bolt-on" unit to be insered in series on the sense - or the contactor actuation - side. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:12 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Time delay, flicker filter etc. > >Hi Bob, > >Thank you for responding. >What I did not state clearly is that somewhere along the build we >switched from Aeroelectric's battery management module to >Perihelion's because for some reasons we could not discover, the >ABMM did not like the presence of EV200 contactors. >Since the new battery management module is potted, I was wondering >if a proper filter could be devised as a "bolt-on" unit to be >insered in series on the sense - or the contactor actuation - side. oh . . . okay . . . wish we'd talked about this earlier . . . The EV200 contactors are known noise sources. Not sure why, it's not difficult to control. I think I've got a sample from the factory around here somewhere. Might see if I can get a peek at it in the lab with some really good equipment. In the mean time, I take it that the original ABMM is no longer available. You'd have to check with Eric on his recommendations but I'm guessing that you might get away with feeding the ABMM's + input terminal through a diode (Schottky would be best but not critical). Then put a capacitor across the ABMM input power terminals . . . something like 100uF. This would drive the module at the higher voltage more consistent with the peaks. As an aside, I'm studying a line of rectifier regulators for PM alternators, both single and 3-phase, that are head-and-shoulders above legacy technologies for voltage regulation stability. Further, they are thermally robust. The Ducati R/R supplied with the Rotax engines is pretty sorry compared to these new ones. Just getting a REAL regulator on your airplane may make Eric's ABMM happier too. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How do I prevent starter engaged LED from failing? At 05:41 PM 5/6/2014, you wrote: > >Bob(s) and Joe, > >It's not about poor "service" from this list. Quite the contrary. >And the great body of knowledge herein is why I came to this list to >find out the answer to my questions. I have learned so much here >it's why I have been able to create and wire my plane. Couldn't have >done it without you. > Not having full understanding of an LED is why I used the mini > bulb. Your explanations made the use of the LED so much clearer > that I could have used it had I seen your posts before I chickened > out and installed the mini bulb. When the mini bulb fails, I'll try > the LED. Although, the mini bulb has a 5k hours ave life! Also, I > was not able to test the LED by running the starter. Also, the two > original diagrams showing two different ways to add the diode to > the circuit had me wondering which was correct. I saw those . . . and didn't see a difference in them . . . > As far as monitoring the starter contactor rather than the > terminals on the starter, I have to say I followed an old drawing I > had from the aeroelectric.com site. It was > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Starter_Contactor/s702wire.jpg > it's still there. it got filed under "Starter Contactors" http://tinyurl.com/o5turon >When I search for it now, I find I am not able to access it. It was >a picture of an auto style start contactor with two large posts and >two small posts. The small posts were labelled S and I. The picture >said the I post could be used for a starter monitoring light. I'll >agree the starter would be a better device to monitor. THanks for the tips. The wiring suggested in S702wire.jpg might make more sense if you saw the schematic . . . Actually, the "I" terminal is just fine . . . that's a THIRD stationary contact within the S702-1 contactor that duplicates the connections between the two FAT terminals thusly . . . Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Single ground vs. distributed ground From: "Dragoon6" Don, I have a Glasair (i.e. all fiberglass) airplane, which I bought rather than built. I am rewiring to install new equipment and I've discovered no less than 5 grounding locations. I have one (large) main ground bus, along with smaller ground buses located in various regions behind the panel: one on the floor, one on the pilot's side, one on the side of my nag/com stack, etc. So long as these buses are connected and that you stay away from ground loops, you should be fine with multiple grounds. My radios and such were fine before I tore everything apart. The only issue I had was loose/improperly installed coax connectors and a bum engine monitor. Be sure to keep your maximum voltage drop to less than 0.5V (as per the AC 43.13-2B) if you have a 14V system. I am increasing a few of my ground wires between the various smaller ground buses or terminal blocks: maybe from a #14 AWG up to a #12 or #10 AWG. I run a 60A alternator and use #4 AWG for my battery and starter (long runs) but a #6 AWG for my alternator line to the hot bus. My battery has two #4 AWG ground lines, one running to the main ground bus while the other runs to the engine case. Moderation is always a plus, but having more than one ground bus in a glass airplane is not the end of the world. Plan your layout well, as I can attest to the fact that trying to track a rat's nest of wires after the fact is NOT fun. Best wishes and have fun! Travis Los Alamos, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422938#422938 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:09 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Special Coax Connectors: Apollo Nav/Coms... From: "Dragoon6" Hello, I am looking for some (apparently) special coax connectors for my Apollo (now Garmin) nav/coms. The old connectors are made by Delta Electronics Manufacturing Corp., part number 4205018N995-000, and are slip-on on one side with a metal flare to help guide the radio coax connector into place, then a center-wire solder and twist-on shielding connection the other end. There are two rectangular flanges for mounting to the nav/com tray. I am told that these are standard for the older Apollo radios but they are somewhat difficult to come by. If anyone is selling any or knows of anyone who has any, i would appreciate it. These connectors float on the tray, which also helps for easy alignment when sliding the radio into the tray. I just need new connectors so I can switch to my RG400 coax from the RG58. Let's see if I can add some photos. -------- Travis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422941#422941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094054_732.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094042_166.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094028_185.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094003_108.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:27 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Special Coax Connectors: Apollo Nav/Coms... Why go to all the bother of upgrading to RG400 for nav/coms?? They are in the 108-137MHz range, where there is not much performance difference between the RRG-58 and RG-400. Properly installed RG58 with decent antennas can give over 100nm range. How much more do you need?? On 5/6/2014 9:12 PM, Dragoon6 wrote: > > Hello, > > I am looking for some (apparently) special coax connectors for my Apollo (now Garmin) nav/coms. The old connectors are made by Delta Electronics Manufacturing Corp., part number 4205018N995-000, and are slip-on on one side with a metal flare to help guide the radio coax connector into place, then a center-wire solder and twist-on shielding connection the other end. There are two rectangular flanges for mounting to the nav/com tray. > > I am told that these are standard for the older Apollo radios but they are somewhat difficult to come by. If anyone is selling any or knows of anyone who has any, i would appreciate it. > > These connectors float on the tray, which also helps for easy alignment when sliding the radio into the tray. I just need new connectors so I can switch to my RG400 coax from the RG58. Let's see if I can add some photos. > > -------- > Travis > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422941#422941 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094054_732.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094042_166.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094028_185.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140504_094003_108.jpg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.