---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/14/14: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:19 AM - Alternator Field Wiring Approaches (Jeff Page) 2. 11:40 AM - Re: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches (Jeff Luckey) 3. 12:57 PM - 'Ford' Voltage regulator (Peter Pengilly) 4. 02:31 PM - Re: 'Ford' Voltage regulator (Joe Dubner) 5. 02:53 PM - Re: 'Ford' Voltage regulator (David Lloyd) 6. 03:03 PM - Re: 'Ford' Voltage regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 03:16 PM - Re: 'Ford' Voltage regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 03:17 PM - Re: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:14 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches I just noticed an interesting wiring difference between Tony Bingelis' diagram on page 212 of Firewall Forward and the typical AeroElectric diagram. I bring this up as an interesting learning opportunity. On Z13-8 the 5A field breaker is fed from the main power bus. On Tony's diagram, it is fed from the 60A alternator breaker. Z13-8 has replaced this with an ANL current limiter, which is not pertinent to this discussion. The Z13-8 current limiter is located at the starter contactor, which avoids bringing the 4AWG wiring into the cockpit, which is obviously preferable. To me, the biggest consequence of the Z13-8 approach is that if the ANL current limiter blows, the regulator (sensing the sagging bus voltage) will attempt to drive the alternator to full output, which would be a "bad thing", since the output is likely shorted to ground. With Tony's approach, the voltage sensing path is unbroken when the 60A breaker pops. I say "bad thing", since I expect Bob to remind us the damages in this situation are inadequately qualified, probably not life-threatening, and besides, the alternator is self-limited to its maximum rating, which will probably clear the short. With Tony's approach, there would be much less of the "bad thing" :-) However, to gain the advantage of Tony's approach, some disadvantages must be accepted. Since we prefer the ANL current limiter be connected as shown at the starter contactor, it would mean we would have to run the wire from the 5A field breaker through the firewall. This would further mean more connections and more wire in the voltage sensing path, resulting is less accurate voltage regulation. Since the "bad thing" is not life-threatening, and extremely unlikely, it makes sense to me to use the Z13-8 approach, which provides shorter and more reliable wiring and better voltage regulation. I will be interested in others opinions of the two approaches. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:47 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches where can we see a drawing of Tony's design?=0A=0AIt's tough to discuss w/o seeing the diagram...=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jeff Page =0ATo: Aero_Electric_List =0ASent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:17 AM=0ASubject: AeroElect ric-List: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Page =0A=0AI just noticed an inte resting wiring difference between Tony Bingelis'- =0Adiagram on page 212 of Firewall Forward and the typical AeroElectric- =0Adiagram.- I bring this up as an interesting learning opportunity.=0A=0AOn Z13-8 the 5A field breaker is fed from the main power bus.=0A=0AOn Tony's diagram, it is fed f rom the 60A alternator breaker.- Z13-8- =0Ahas replaced this with an AN L current limiter, which is not pertinent- =0Ato this discussion.- The Z13-8 current limiter is located at the- =0Astarter contactor, which avoi ds bringing the 4AWG wiring into the- =0Acockpit, which is obviously pref erable.=0A=0ATo me, the biggest consequence of the Z13-8 approach is that i f the- =0AANL current limiter blows, the regulator (sensing the sagging b us- =0Avoltage) will attempt to drive the alternator to full output, whic h- =0Awould be a "bad thing", since the output is likely shorted to groun d.- =0AWith Tony's approach, the voltage sensing path is unbroken when th e- =0A60A breaker pops.=0A=0AI say "bad thing", since I expect Bob to rem ind us the damages in this- =0Asituation are inadequately qualified, prob ably not life-threatening,- =0Aand besides, the alternator is self-limite d to its maximum rating,- =0Awhich will probably clear the short.=0A=0AWi th Tony's approach, there would be much less of the "bad thing" :-)=0A=0AHo wever, to gain the advantage of Tony's approach, some disadvantages- =0Am ust be accepted.=0A=0ASince we prefer the ANL current limiter be connected as shown at the- =0Astarter contactor, it would mean we would have to run the wire from- =0Athe 5A field breaker through the firewall.=0A=0AThis w ould further mean more connections and more wire in the voltage- =0Asensi ng path, resulting is less accurate voltage regulation.=0A=0ASince the "bad thing" is not life-threatening, and extremely unlikely,- =0Ait makes sen se to me to use the Z13-8 approach, which provides shorter- =0Aand more r eliable wiring and better voltage regulation.=0A=0AI will be interested in others opinions of the two approaches.=0A=0AJeff Page=0ADream Aircraft Tund ====================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:04 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator Guys, Does anyone have a part number for a generic 'Ford' voltage regulator? I know they are readily available in the US, but in the UK the first question is always, "What car does it come from...?" When you can't provide a model & year, or a part number most parts store guys give up. They must be available if only we could figure out what to ask for! Thanks in advance. Peter ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:19 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator Peter, I used a "VR166" voltage regulator with my 40A B&C alternator and bought it from Amazon.com. Assuming this link is available in the UK, you can see it here: http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-VR166-Regulator/dp/B000C805SW Best, Joe Independence, OR Peter Pengilly wrote, On 5/14/2014 12:52: > > > Guys, > > Does anyone have a part number for a generic 'Ford' voltage regulator? > I know they are readily available in the US, but in the UK the first > question is always, > "What car does it come from...?" > When you can't provide a model & year, or a part number most parts store > guys give up. > They must be available if only we could figure out what to ask for! > Thanks in advance. > > Peter ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:09 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator Peter, Are you looking for the old "mechanical" type or the newer solid state model. . .?? If it is the newer integrated circuit type, here is my suggestion. Take your old unit into a marine or truck type parts house. Show them the unit ( remove any Cessna stickers off it ) and tell them that it is off a boat. There is no parts references really for boats. A smart parts guy will know the exact unit to pick. They usually also have a heavy duty unit. I would op for that model as it will only be a few dollars more. Last time I did this, it was a truck store. I started in with a mechanical type reg. Asked for the newer style unit that was a direct plug replacement. The parts guy knew what would work. He even offered to run the new regulator on his shop equipment and check the control voltage. Being a solid state unit, it is very easy to adjust this with the internal pot. David _______________________________________________________________________- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pengilly" Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 12:52 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator > > > Guys, > > Does anyone have a part number for a generic 'Ford' voltage regulator? > I know they are readily available in the US, but in the UK the first > question is always, > "What car does it come from...?" > When you can't provide a model & year, or a part number most parts store > guys give up. > They must be available if only we could figure out what to ask for! > Thanks in advance. > > Peter > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator At 02:52 PM 5/14/2014, you wrote: > > >Guys, > >Does anyone have a part number for a generic 'Ford' voltage regulator? >I know they are readily available in the US, but in the UK the first >question is always, >"What car does it come from...?" >When you can't provide a model & year, or a part number most parts >store guys give up. >They must be available if only we could figure out what to ask for! Yup . . . airplane parts business suffers from the same malady . . . no part number no part . . . assuming it's even in the system. That's one regulator that has a 99% chance of being 'correct' by simply observing it's shape. If it looks like this Emacs! It's going to work. Here's an array of options from a local US supplier. Used 1980 Ford Fairmont as baseline but if you look at other models over 1975-1990 model years, you find a similar array. http://tinyurl.com/m7ke8p2 other examples: http://tinyurl.com/od994zl http://tinyurl.com/l6qm8js http://tinyurl.com/m83q5q8 http://tinyurl.com/lro7dlh Poke around on the 'net long enough and you'll find this part offered on a dozen or more part numbers. You should be able to pick one up for about $20-30 . . . perhaps less. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:08 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 'Ford' Voltage regulator At 04:47 PM 5/14/2014, you wrote: > >Peter, > >Are you looking for the old "mechanical" type or the newer solid >state model. . .?? >If it is the newer integrated circuit type, here is my suggestion. > >Take your old unit into a marine or truck type parts house. Show >them the unit ( remove any Cessna stickers off it ) and tell them >that it is off a boat. There is no parts references really for >boats. A smart parts guy will know the exact unit to pick. They >usually also have a heavy duty unit. I would op for that model as it >will only be a few dollars more. > >Last time I did this, it was a truck store. I started in with a >mechanical type reg. Asked for the newer style unit that was a >direct plug replacement. The parts guy knew what would work. He >even offered to run the new regulator on his shop equipment and >check the control voltage. Being a solid state unit, it is very easy >to adjust this with the internal pot. Good data . . . with one caveat . . . not ALL solid state replacements are not 'drop in' replacements for the manner in which Cessna used the "S" terminal and the o.v. module. http://tinyurl.com/7g7mn6l Tried the substitution on of our rental fleet a/c at Benton and had an uncontrolled runaway under some switch positions. Don't recall details right now but do the substitution in a Cessna with caution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Wiring Approaches At 01:17 PM 5/14/2014, you wrote: > >I just noticed an interesting wiring difference between Tony Bingelis' >diagram on page 212 of Firewall Forward and the typical AeroElectric >diagram. I bring this up as an interesting learning opportunity. Would you scan the page and post it. Schematics are the ultimate communications tools in such discussions . . . 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