---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/23/14: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:37 AM - non-PC680 battery experience (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 2. 06:23 AM - Re: non-PC680 battery experience (H. Marvin Haught) 3. 08:21 AM - Re: non-PC680 battery experience (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:57 AM - Re: non-PC680 battery experience (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 01:28 PM - Wire tag ID needed (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:05 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-PC680 battery experience At original build, I also was looking at less-expensive alternatives to the PC680, especially since I have an electrically dependent Corvair engine and am using the 2-battery+PM alternator approach espoused by Bob, where I change the primary (starting) battery every year and keep last year=92s starting battery as the #2. So I purchased two fresh Universal Power UB12220 batteries from a local distributor. After about 7 months, I began having trouble with the primary battery cranking the very light, very easy to crank 190 c.i. engine. It got worse quickly and by the 8th month, I had replaced it with a PC680. At the annual, I moved that one to the #2 and put another PC680 in the #1 slot. No troubles since. I noted, in post-change research, that the specs for the UB12220 list the charging temp range as 0=B0-40=B0C and the discharging range as -15=B0-45=B0C. The storage limits are -15=B0-40=B0C. I operate out of Mesa, AZ and my son lives in Avon, CO, so I can guarantee that I exceeded those limits on both ends, but probably the worst effect was on the high end. With the #2 battery on the firewall, I bet it regularly sees 65=B0+, even in its insulated bracket. Heck, even for the #1 under the copilot=92s seat, we have ramp and hangar temps over 50=B0C for a good portion of the summer. So my purely anecdotally-based advice is to stick with batteries designed for motor vehicle use, especially if you have an electrically dependent airplane. If it=92ll survive on a Harley, it=92ll survive on your plane. The $80/year cost delta is pretty insignificant when you compare it to everything else. FWIW, Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 N601GE/Z601XLb/TD/Corvair 601 hrs since 11/08 Web Site Link ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:25 AM PST US From: "H. Marvin Haught" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: non-PC680 battery experience Another anecdote as to "RV" type batteries: When I first bought my Pacer 22 years ago, the aircraft batteries I was using would only last a year. Plus, outgassing from the battery was eating up my battery box every 3 or 5 months. A good friend of mine advised me to buy a good, five year RV battery - almost exactly the same size as the aircraft battery I had been using, but with better cranking power....he had several airplanes and was using them in all of them. Now, I know this wasn't a "legal" installation, but I was sick of battery problems. That first RV battery lasted 6 years, was still cranking the airplane when I took it out, and lasted another couple of years in my lawnmower. In 20 years, I bought four batteries at around $55 to $60, all sealed type batteries. Except for one battery that was allowed to sit to long in a discharged state, none failed, but were replaced because of age. Using those batteries put an end to the outgassing and corrosion in the battery box, gave me reliable cranking power, and when camping, I ran my CPAP machine off of the battery. The battery still had enough power to crank the engine the next day. For their size, they are heavy, but have been the best solution for my use. When I sold my Pacer, the new owner installed one of the new lightweight batteries before we flew to Alaska. It worked fine in warm weather, but would not stand up to the cold when winter came. My new project is underway and is an experimental. I will again be using an RV battery, as they have been the best spark for my buck to this point. I will likely install two batteries in the project, which will be a back country airplane....both under the front seat right on the CG, as I will be using the aux battery to power my CPAP machine. M. Haught On May 23, 2014, at 7:35 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > At original build, I also was looking at less-expensive alternatives to the PC680, especially since I have an electrically dependent Corvair engine and am using the 2-battery+PM alternator approach espoused by Bob, where I change the primary (starting) battery every year and keep last year=92s starting battery as the #2. So I purchased two fresh Universal Power UB12220 batteries from a local distributor. > After about 7 months, I began having trouble with the primary battery cranking the very light, very easy to crank 190 c.i. engine. It got worse quickly and by the 8th month, I had replaced it with a PC680. At the annual, I moved that one to the #2 and put another PC680 in the #1 slot. No troubles since. > I noted, in post-change research, that the specs for the UB12220 list the charging temp range as 0=B0-40=B0C and the discharging range as -15=B0-45=B0C. The storage limits are -15=B0-40=B0C. I operate out of Mesa, AZ and my son lives in Avon, CO, so I can guarantee that I exceeded those limits on both ends, but probably the worst effect was on the high end. With the #2 battery on the firewall, I bet it regularly sees 65=B0+, even in its insulated bracket. Heck, even for the #1 under the copilot=92s seat, we have ramp and hangar temps over 50=B0C for a good portion of the summer. > So my purely anecdotally-based advice is to stick with batteries designed for motor vehicle use, especially if you have an electrically dependent airplane. If it=92ll survive on a Harley, it=92ll survive on your plane. The $80/year cost delta is pretty insignificant when you compare it to everything else. FWIW, > Andy > ------------------------ > Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 > N601GE/Z601XLb/TD/Corvair > 601 hrs since 11/08 > Web Site Link > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: non-PC680 battery experience > > So my purely anecdotally-based advice is to stick with batteries > designed for motor vehicle use, especially if you have an > electrically dependent airplane. If it'll survive on a Harley, > it'll survive on your plane. The $80/year cost delta is pretty > insignificant when you compare it to everything else. FWIW, Thanks Andy . . . good information. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: non-PC680 battery experience > I will again be using an RV battery, as they have been the best > spark for my buck to this point. I will likely install two > batteries in the project, which will be a back country > airplane....both under the front seat right on the CG, as I will be > using the aux battery to power my CPAP machine. > >M. Haught When you say "RV" battery, I presume you're making reference to batteries tailored to deep cycle service in recreational vehicles . . . and yes, in the modern sealed, recombinant gas architecture, they should be very long lived in a light duty-cycle service like a light airplane. The elegant solution for batteries in airplanes is the product of a talented hat-dance around the features that drive weight, capacity and load-dumping ability. Ask Skip Koss about the music to which Concorde dances in the evolution of their products for aircraft. Earlier this week I mentioned an "RV" battery I was testing . . . a battery supposedly fitted with a leading edge technology that would reduce weight while at least not degrading capacity per unit volume and internal impedance . . . like grunting an over the road diesel engine to life. The thing I tested is an okay battery for capacity. 100 amp-hours plus at 20 hour rate, probably 75 amp- hours at a 1 hour rate. But it's ability to crank engines is problematic. In fact, a 24 volt incarnation of this product wouldn't get the typical piston engine airplane started. Now, it may well be a great RV battery in terms of service life . . . I'm not going to test for that. But your narrative underscores the uncertainty one experiences when staring at one of these things attempting to answer the question: "Should I use this in my airplane?" Emacs! ' Bottom line is that I don't have a clue . . . just as that Firefly battery came in a nice, colorful plastic case and proved that it would run my ham-rig for perhaps months on one charge, there was no way to know its true suitability to task without (1) testing and/ or (2) real-life feedback. Few manufacturers offer the hard-data offered by our legacy suppliers of known performance like Hawker-Enersys and Concorde. That doesn't mean one should avoid alternatives but do conduct the experiments at minimum risk. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire tag ID needed From: Charlie England Anyone know a source for these? Looks like the fastest way to label wires 'o n the fly'. It's on a wire for a Garmin 327 xponder I bought used. Thanks, Charlie Sent from my iPhone
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