---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/27/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:53 AM - Re: iPod shocks (GLEN MATEJCEK) 2. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Brownout battery charging? (Bill Watson) 3. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: iPod shocks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Brownout battery charging? (Justin Jones) 5. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: iPod shocks (Dave Saylor) 6. 03:23 PM - Serial Data Logger (Eric Page) 7. 06:42 PM - Re: Serial Data Logger (Ken) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPod shocks From: GLEN MATEJCEK Thanks Etienne - that would make sense. >The sensation of friction is quite often characterized as a vibration as >the finger catches and slides on a surface (think of a slightly damp finger >across a window pane). With the 50 or 60Hz shocks, the nerves on the skin >are tricked into the sensation of a vibration, which is interpreted as >friction. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:41 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brownout battery charging? Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10. I knew during the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink'). That requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule. A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and (1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with a comm radio. It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online. When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted. That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units all fully booted before starts. Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS). With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other. Worked okay in warm weather but a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter. I often ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations. Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units. Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I wanted, consistently. So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine starts. I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired. Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] >> How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? >> >> Bob . . . > > About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPod shocks At 09:10 PM 6/25/2014, you wrote: >Thanks to everyone who replied. =C2 This is such a >great resource, I never get tired of the discussion. > >I did some more checking. =C2 My garage wiring >seems to be fine. =C2 Can't find any fault there. >=C2 I really do appreciate the concern, you guys are great. > >As for the half wave, even with polarity reversed, same effect. Interesting thread . . . I'd like to understand more about the nature and root cause of Dave's observations. I'm not aware of any line operated power supply wherein the designer did not observe the most rudimentary of design goals for user safety. Consider this exchange between a DIY wall-wart wannabe and some cooler heads . . . http://tinyurl.com/omf3xg2 From day-one for unregulated, transformer/rectifier/ capacitor wall warts to present-day transformer/ switchmode regulators . . . the consumer product wall warts have always featured transformer isolation between any connection to AC mains and connections accessible to the consumer. To gain UL approvals, all power supplies are evaluated for potential leakage, arcing or mechanical failures that would pose a risk for loss of such protection. This view of the interior of a modern, ac-mains dc supply shows the tiny transformer (tiny because it operates at frequencies much higher than ac-mains 60Hz) which has been clearly marked "HiPot OK" and a date-code of 49th week of 1999. IoMega open A 'hi-pot' test calls for deliberate application of hundreds of volts across the insulation between the transformer's 'line-side' and 'consumer-side' windings. Leakages of more than a few microamps gets the transformer rejected. Dave's observations are probably based on a degraded assembly, possibley due to some combination of dust/moisture . . . or breakdown of the transformer's insulation. I've asked Dave for the carcass . . . it would be interesting to see if root cause for his observations can be identified. Suffice it to say, there is very little risk for repeated experiences for any of millions of examples of ac-mains operated power supplies. Making them safe is easier than making them work good. Selective purchasing decisions based on brand names is not particularly useful . . . the most revered of brands may exploit the economies of outside production support . . . for which they will have developed a requirements document. A document that most certainly includes the value of designing for 'hi-pot' tests . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brownout battery charging? From: Justin Jones Bill, Do you have a schematic of your system by chance? Sounds like what I'm looking for! Thanks Justin On Jun 27, 2014, at 7:14, Bill Watson wrote: > > Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10. I knew during the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink'). That requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule. > > A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and (1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with a comm radio. It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online. > > When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted. That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units all fully booted before starts. > > Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS). > > With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other. Worked okay in warm weather but a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter. I often ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations. Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units. > > Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I wanted, consistently. So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine starts. I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired. > > Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson > > > > > > On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote: >> >> [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] >>> How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'? >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:07 AM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPod shocks Bob, You should have it in a couple days. I said in my post that it was an Apple device--it's not. It is a knock-off, with no marking except Made in China to instill consumer confidence... --Dave On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:10 PM 6/25/2014, you wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who replied. =C3=82 This is such a great resource, I n ever > get tired of the discussion. > > I did some more checking. =C3=82 My garage wiring seems to be fine. =C3 =82 Can't > find any fault there. =C3=82 I really do appreciate the concern, you guys are > great. > > As for the half wave, even with polarity reversed, same effect. > > > Interesting thread . . . I'd like to understand more > about the nature and root cause of Dave's observations. > > I'm not aware of any line operated power supply > wherein the designer did not observe the most > rudimentary of design goals for user safety. > > Consider this exchange between a DIY wall-wart > wannabe and some cooler heads . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/omf3xg2 > > From day-one for unregulated, transformer/rectifier/ > capacitor wall warts to present-day transformer/ > switchmode regulators . . . the consumer product > wall warts have always featured transformer isolation between > any connection to AC mains and connections accessible > to the consumer. > > To gain UL approvals, all power supplies are > evaluated for potential leakage, arcing or > mechanical failures that would pose a risk > for loss of such protection. > > This view of the interior of a modern, ac-mains > dc supply shows the tiny transformer (tiny because > it operates at frequencies much higher than ac-mains > 60Hz) which has been clearly marked "HiPot OK" > and a date-code of 49th week of 1999. > > [image: IoMega open] > > A 'hi-pot' test calls for deliberate application of hundreds > of volts across the insulation between the transformer's > 'line-side' and 'consumer-side' windings. Leakages of > more than a few microamps gets the transformer rejected. > > Dave's observations are probably based on a degraded assembly, > possibley due to some combination of dust/moisture . . . or > breakdown of the transformer's insulation. > > I've asked Dave for the carcass . . . it would be interesting > to see if root cause for his observations can be identified. > Suffice it to say, there is very little risk for repeated > experiences for any of millions of examples of ac-mains > operated power supplies. Making them safe is easier > than making them work good. Selective purchasing decisions > based on brand names is not particularly useful . . . > the most revered of brands may exploit the economies of > outside production support . . . for which they will > have developed a requirements document. A document that > most certainly includes the value of designing for > 'hi-pot' tests . . . > > > Bob . . . > > * > =========== www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Serial Data Logger From: Eric Page There has been occasional discussion of data logging on this forum, so I tho ught this might be of interest. Sparkfun has just released an updated versi on of their Logomatic serial data logger: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772 Eric ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:25 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial Data Logger I've used the analog inputs on that item with vibration sensors and strain gauges recording at up to 1500 sps mounted on a prop hub but you need to be a tinkerer to set it up and condition the sensor inputs. Biggest issue is probably how to analyse the data. I've used gnuplot and octave which are free but it can be very time consuming. If a lower sample rate is acceptable, for most folks I'd recommend a more plug and play type recorder that includes analysis and display software. Bob has mentioned a starter unit for around $50. that looked much simpler to use. http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di145.html#ordernow Ken On 27/06/2014 6:22 PM, Eric Page wrote: > There has been occasional discussion of data logging on this forum, so I > thought this might be of interest. Sparkfun has just released an > updated version of their Logomatic serial data logger: > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12772 > > Eric > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.