---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/10/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:18 AM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Shaun Wilkinson) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Bill Watson) 3. 06:31 AM - Re: iPod shocks (Eric M. Jones) 4. 07:45 AM - Noisy USB Charger (Dennis Johnson) 5. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Dj Merrill) 6. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Tim Andres) 7. 01:30 PM - Tablets as flight instruments (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 01:47 PM - Re: RV-7 wireing questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:03 PM - Re: RV-7 wireing questions (OOPS) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Bill Bradburry) 11. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Dj Merrill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:43 AM PST US From: Shaun Wilkinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions Excellent Photo On 10 Jul 2014, at 00:38, John Tipton wrote: > > > This is my 4year old grandson, flying P2, with my IPad suction mounted on my C172 > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > >> On 9 Jul 2014, at 11:40 pm, Tim Andres wrote: >> >> >> I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. >> FWIW >> Tim >> >>> On Jul 9, 2014, at 2:16 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: >>> >>> >>> At 10:07 AM 7/9/2014, you wrote: >>>> BTW, I've read your book. Very nice for a first time builder. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>>> Hope you don't mind a few questions. >>> >>> Not at all . . . but I would like for you to join the AeroElectric-List >>> for any future conversation. It's always a good thing when we share >>> these conversations with the community. >>> >>>> I plan on going with fuses for the majority of the circuit protection as you recommended. When I went to your web site to find fuse blocks and bus bars, I had a hard time navigating through the site. Do you have an online product catalog, or is that something I have to buy? When I clicked on the link the first time, an order form came up. I tried again at a later time and finally made it to the fuse block section, but the pdf descriptions that came up was hardly readable. >>> >>> I don't sell any hardware at present. I have in the >>> past but right now, B&C at http://bandc.biz has the >>> vast majority of my legacy products and merchandise. >>> I'm talking with them about upgrades to products and >>> getting some new items. Time is my tight commodity. >>> I'm contracting for Beech/Cessna/Hawker and there >>> aren't very many gray-beards around to remember how >>> and why some things were done . . . waayyyyy back when. >>> >>> >>>> I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad mini on the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and communicate with a Stratus Two. I've heard the pads tend to overheat and was thinking about installing a cooling fan behind it in the panel. Do you have any thoughts on this? What type fan should I use to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a simpler idea, or am I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? >>> >>> Folks on the List can better sources of information >>> on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . . >>> these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the >>> vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless >>> there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues >>> (doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect >>> there to be any problems for operational heating. >>> >>> However, these things are not designed to RESIDE on a >>> panel of an airplane parked out in the sun. I sure >>> wouldn't leave one in a parked airplane. >>> >>>> The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be charged while in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine application that looks good, but didn't know if you had any. >>> >>> That's a popular topic on the List. A number of >>> builders have tried various commercial off the self >>> 12v/USB power adapters with varying degrees of >>> success. Depending on how handy you are with >>> a soldering iron, you could craft an airplane- >>> friendly, 14V to 5VUSB adapter starting with >>> a reasonably robust assembly as a core . . . >>> something like these . . . >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/ovowqbu >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/px42t7f >>> >>> >>> . . . mounted in a metal enclosure and fitted with >>> sure-to-work filters and over-load protection. >>> >>> Alternatively, something like this . . . >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/pbvmbb3 >>> >>> . . . might be just fine in terms of performance >>> and noise . . . you'd just have to try it. >>> >>>> I also read your article on using shielded cable for the LIghtspeed electronic ignition instead of the coax. The use of epoxy to seal the wiring seemed like a pain and was wondering if using a tighter fitting, larger shielded wire with shrink wrapping would be ok. Are the reasons for not using larger cable expense, flexibility, and weight? >>> >>> Klaus had a cow when I wrote that article . . . seems >>> that coax cable was necessary if the system were going >>> to generate 2" long sparks between coil towers. Going >>> to shielded wire dropped the output to 1.5" sparks. >>> Still about 100x more than needed to make the engine run >>> but I'll have to concede a 'drop in performance'. >>> >>> The original problem with coax was his recommendation >>> for using RG-58 . . . with insulation that drips off >>> the wire when you try to solder it. He has since revised >>> his recommendation to RG-400 coax . . . modern, hi-temp >>> insulation. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== >> >> >> > >

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________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:07 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions On 7/9/2014 5:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> I'm a vfr only pilot and am considering surface mounting an I-pad >> mini on the dash as a backup. It would run Foreflight and >> communicate with a Stratus Two. I've heard the pads tend to overheat >> and was thinking about installing a cooling fan behind it in the >> panel. Do you have any thoughts on this? What type fan should I use >> to avoid RFI, etc? How many cfm? Do you have a simpler idea, or am >> I needlessly worrying about the overheating problem? > As others have and will point out, you won't really want to 'hard mount' your iPad but rather install it so it can removed and replaced as you enter and exit the plane. Left in a closed cockpit in the sun they will overheat. Practically speaking, I think you'll find that you'll want to keep the iPad with you for Foreflight flight planning, weather checking and general usage. Many possible solutions. I used a RAM mount which let's you slip the iPad in and out with just a bit of finger pressure. Having RAM mount on a center console lets me have the iPad right over my lap - ideal for me. Kitlog - O2 Console for RV10 > >> The other thing I was looking for was 12v usb port I could hardwire >> near my panel (not a cigarette lighter adapter) so the pad would be >> charged while in flight. Blue Sea makes usb ports for marine >> application that looks good, but didn't know if you had any. > You might try experimental avionics supplier/builder Steinair. They have a USB unit that mounts to the panel quite nicely and it works. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPod shocks From: "Eric M. Jones" Bob, Electrocution seems to be normal with these devices! Google "IPod electric shocks" and see the many Apple Devotees who don't think it is a big deal. Some get tingles across their ear-buds. Remarkable. As for the one you tested, the transformer is always the problem. It looks like there is room in there for a legal transformer. Double-bobbin is best. I can't see how Apple doesn't have a class-action suit pending. Perhaps they are using the Pinto lawsuit calculator--fixing 4.5 billion units vs X dead victims' lawsuits per year...who probably were on Ecstasy and had weak hearts anyway. Hmmmmm. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426425#426425 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:39 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noisy USB Charger Thanks, Bob, for your thoughts on my experience with USB chargers that produced noise on my comm radio. I bought the noisy charger from a major supplier of airplane stuff and they are sending me a free replacement. I'll give it a try. In the meantime, I took your advice and tried a different brand of charger. I bought it at Wal-Mart and I'm happy to report that it is working fine. It is black, comes in a bubble pack, and can plug into both a 120 VAC wall outlet and a 12 VDC cigar lighter outlet. It cost less than $20. It has two, 2.1 amp USB receptacles. Regarding the comments about iPads overheating, that is a common problem. A good friend estimated that an iPad generates about 5 watts in use and that the glass display, when exposed to direct sunlight, absorbs the equivalent of 50 watts. I know from experience that at 17,000', where there isn't a lot of air to help cool it, my iPad shuts down from overheating if I leave it exposed to direct sunlight for half an hour. There is also some belief that charging in flight adds to the heat load, but I have not tested that. So long as I don't put my iPad in the direct sun for half an hour, I have no overheating problems. It also helps to remove the iPad from its case to allow the aluminum back panel to dissipate heat. Regarding panel mounting a USB charging port vs. a cigar lighter receptacle, I went the cigar lighter route. Mainly it was because I knew that some USB chargers were too noisy to use in an airplane and the cigar lighter method makes it simple to swap one charger for another until I find one that works. If I were going to hard wire a USB charger in the panel, I would be sure to thoroughly test it before cutting holes in the panel and soldering a bunch of wires. Dennis ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions From: Dj Merrill On 07/09/2014 06:40 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. > FWIW > Tim FWIW, I am very happy with my panel mounted iPad2, and have never had any heat issues with it. I use a RAM mount so that I can easily remove it and take it with me when not using the airplane. Here are some old pics before my panel upgrade: http://deej.net/glastar/pics/ipad/ The new panel is still under construction, but here is a recent picture: http://deej.net/glastar/pics/panel/install/photob-3181.jpg The iPad will be mounted vertically (rather than horizontally as it was in the previous pictures) and will be running WingX for moving map and IFR charts. You could easily mount a simple paper shade behind/above the iPad if you needed to keep the sun off the backside. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions From: Tim Andres I agree a ram mount would be fine, but mounted on the panel so you can't move it to adjust for glare or direct sun was what I thought he had in mind. Also, if you leave one in the sun with or even without the canopy closed, both of mine will overheat and shut down. iPhone also for that matter. Your mileage may vary! Tim > On Jul 10, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Dj Merrill wrote: > > >> On 07/09/2014 06:40 PM, Tim Andres wrote: >> I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. >> FWIW >> Tim > > > FWIW, I am very happy with my panel mounted iPad2, and have never had > any heat issues with it. I use a RAM mount so that I can easily remove > it and take it with me when not using the airplane. > > Here are some old pics before my panel upgrade: > > http://deej.net/glastar/pics/ipad/ > > The new panel is still under construction, but here is a recent picture: > > http://deej.net/glastar/pics/panel/install/photob-3181.jpg > > The iPad will be mounted vertically (rather than horizontally as it was > in the previous pictures) and will be running WingX for moving map and > IFR charts. > > You could easily mount a simple paper shade behind/above the iPad if you > needed to keep the sun off the backside. > > -Dj > > > -- > Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 > Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ > Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tablets as flight instruments At 05:40 PM 7/9/2014, you wrote: > >I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat >soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however >and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when >parked and just set it on my legs in flight. >FWIW >Tim Tim's comments highlight the need to differentiate the two energy sources of potential overheating. Given that these devices draw about 1A at 5.0V (unless charging a dead battery), the power going into internal heat-gain is only 5 watts. Bolt a 5w resistor to a similarly sized sheet of aluminum, power it up, an the piece of aluminum will get noticeably warmer than ambient . . . but you can comfortably hold it. And so it would be with your tablet. It is, after all, a hand-held device. Even when charging a dead battery (perhaps 10W total draw) a majority of the additional 5W goes into electrical->chemistry conversion with perhaps a watt or less showing up as more heat on the case. But lay that same piece of aluminum out in the sun and temperature rise is another matter entirely. It seems well advised to have the handy device attached to the panel only while in use . . . and perhaps stored in your flight bag in the shade . . . or completely out of the airplane. To be sure, there are many examples of commercial-off- the shelf products having truly amazing capability to augment a pilot's tasks in the cockpit. But approach with caution with an understanding that capability does not correlate with reliability. If the desired capability offers any risk for venturing into situations where functionality is NECESSARY, then do your FMEA and ASSUME the critter is going to go T.U. The reason for failure doesn't matter. Have a Plan-B. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-7 wireing questions At 01:17 PM 7/10/2014, you wrote: Hey Bob, I have your book Aeroelectric Connection 2005 and I am building an RV-7. Great book by the way (I am a super beginner). I am going to use your figure Z-11 generic light aircraft electrical system diagram for pretty much all of my system but have a few questions. I want a master switch and an avionics switch on my panel so I can start my engine before I power up my avionics Okay, why do you want to do this? No such feature is suggested on any of the Z-figures . . . the value for an avionics master switch was poorly perceived when it was birthed (about 1968). Today, rudimentary design skills make virtually every appliance immune to what ever the system might throw at it . . . including the cranking of engines. Some readers have proffered the idea that turning avionics loads off will enhance cranking performance. . . an idea without foundation in physics for an airplane with a properly maintained battery. If you're willing to go flying with a battery that might not get the engine started if it were presented with a few amps additional load, then I suggest there's value in a review of your design goals as they drive risks. Don't get me wrong, if you WANT any switch in the airplane for ANY purpose, fine by me. I suggest there is value in understanding the exactly what the switch will (or will not) do for you . . . and how it figures into your assessment of risks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:47 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-7 wireing questions (OOPS) I hit the 'send' button too quick. Check out the articles on avionics master switches at http://tinyurl.com/mr2jk8g Also, I recommend you join us on the AeroElectric-List, http://tinyurl.com/57wytb . . . it's a good thing to share a conversation about such matters with lots of other builders who may ponder such issues themselves . . . ----------------------------------------------------------- At 01:17 PM 7/10/2014, you wrote: Hey Bob, I have your book Aeroelectric Connection 2005 and I am building an RV-7. Great book by the way (I am a super beginner). I am going to use your figure Z-11 generic light aircraft electrical system diagram for pretty much all of my system but have a few questions. I want a master switch and an avionics switch on my panel so I can start my engine before I power up my avionics Okay, why do you want to do this? No such feature is suggested on any of the Z-figures . . . the value for an avionics master switch was poorly perceived when it was birthed (about 1968). Today, rudimentary design skills make virtually every appliance immune to what ever the system might throw at it . . . including the cranking of engines. Some readers have proffered the idea that turning avionics loads off will enhance cranking performance. . . an idea without foundation in physics for an airplane with a properly maintained battery. If you're willing to go flying with a battery that might not get the engine started if it were presented with a few amps additional load, then I suggest there's value in a review of your design goals as they drive risks. Don't get me wrong, if you WANT any switch in the airplane for ANY purpose, fine by me. I suggest there is value in understanding the exactly what the switch will (or will not) do for you . . . and how it figures into your assessment of risks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:51 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions DJ, You need 10 lbs of ballast in the baggage to fly solo????! Where is your battery mounted? Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 9:58 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions On 07/09/2014 06:40 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > I think you'll be unhappy with a panel mounted Ipad, they will heat soak from the sun in a hurry and simply turn off. I use one however and love it, but I stow it out of the sun (and thieves) view when parked and just set it on my legs in flight. > FWIW > Tim FWIW, I am very happy with my panel mounted iPad2, and have never had any heat issues with it. I use a RAM mount so that I can easily remove it and take it with me when not using the airplane. Here are some old pics before my panel upgrade: http://deej.net/glastar/pics/ipad/ The new panel is still under construction, but here is a recent picture: http://deej.net/glastar/pics/panel/install/photob-3181.jpg The iPad will be mounted vertically (rather than horizontally as it was in the previous pictures) and will be running WingX for moving map and IFR charts. You could easily mount a simple paper shade behind/above the iPad if you needed to keep the sun off the backside. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: sundry questions From: Dj Merrill On 7/10/2014 7:33 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > You need 10 lbs of ballast in the baggage to fly solo????! Where is your > battery mounted? > Hi Bill, No, I do not. My guess is the original builder didn't weigh the plane properly, because when I used a set of calibrated scales to do it, my results were somewhat different. No ballast needed other than my butt in the front seat. :-) Those are old pics taken shortly after I bought the plane a few years ago, and that label hasn't been in the plane for a long time. Nice catch though! :-) -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.