Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:56 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (Tomhanaway)
2. 04:47 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (Ken)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (Kent or Jackie Ashton)
4. 08:00 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:22 AM - Learning (Jim Gilliatt)
6. 08:26 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: Learning (John Tipton)
8. 08:47 AM - Re: Learning (Jim Gilliatt)
9. 09:22 AM - Re: Learning (John Tipton)
10. 09:41 AM - Re: Learning (Tomhanaway)
11. 11:21 AM - Re: Dual master solenoids (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 02:39 PM - Re: Learning (Peter Pengilly)
13. 04:35 PM - Re: Learning (Tim Andres)
14. 04:45 PM - Manual for Vision microsystems EPI-800 engine monitor (Alan Barnett)
15. 07:11 PM - Re: Dual master solenoids (user9253)
16. 10:18 PM - Re: Re: sundry questions (Larry Ford)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
I understand that but it doesn't answer my question.
Is there anything from an electrical point of view that keeps this from work
ing. I.e., the backup master solenoid would have 12 vdc at both terminals wh
enever the primary master solenoid is turned on even if the aux master solen
oid switch is not on. My goal is to have the aux solenoid sitting idle unle
ss activated by a switch.
Tom
Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 1:50 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> TOM,
> Then you may as well have two of everything.
>
> Remember the cardinal rule..." build in simplicity and lightness"
>
> Bob Verwey
>
>> On 12 Jul 2014 11:22 PM, "Tomhanaway" <tomhanaway1@gmail.com> wrote:
m>
>>
>> Working my way through Nuckoll's Z-13 wiring diagram.
>> I'm building an 8-a VFR with single battery, single alternator.
>>
>> I'm not excited about the use of his "always hot" main bus because of the
additional wire runs it would create from the buss mounted close to the rea
r mounted battery and difficulty accessing fuses for those wires.
>>
>> I'd like to run all electrical busses from the always hot side of the sta
rter solenoid (always hot when master solenoid is hot).
>>
>> Given this scenario, it seems that the really significant system weakness
is the failure of the master solenoid. I was thinking that a second master s
olenoid, with a separate wire and switch, wired in parallel at the battery, w
ould address this issue.
>>
>> Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious (or not so obvious
)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom H.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectr
ic-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
I don't see a problem with a dual master although I wonder if it really
achieves your goal or achieves it as elegantly as one of the Z
architectures. The failures of contactors that I've seen are failures to
activate not failures during flight. I do agree that any truly essential
system such as engine power should not be tied to a single contactor but
the battery buss and/or essential buss concept seem like a better
solution where applicable. Don't forget that a backup has little value
unless tested regularly. For example, I test my backup EFI during taxi
on every flight and it has always worked perfectly. I happened to test
it in flight yesterday and discovered that it has started to miss at
high power which pretty much means it has been useless dead weight for
some undetermined length of time as I do not often test it at high power
settings.
Ken
On 13/07/2014 6:55 AM, Tomhanaway wrote:
> I understand that but it doesn't answer my question.
>
> Is there anything from an electrical point of view that keeps this from
> working. I.e., the backup master solenoid would have 12 vdc at both
> terminals whenever the primary master solenoid is turned on even if the
> aux master solenoid switch is not on. My goal is to have the aux
> solenoid sitting idle unless activated by a switch.
>
> Tom
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 1:50 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey@gmail.com
> <mailto:bob.verwey@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> TOM,
>> Then you may as well have two of everything.
>>
>> Remember the cardinal rule..." build in simplicity and lightness"
>>
>> Bob Verwey
>>
>> On 12 Jul 2014 11:22 PM, "Tomhanaway" <tomhanaway1@gmail.com
>> <mailto:tomhanaway1@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <tomhanaway1@gmail.com <mailto:tomhanaway1@gmail.com>>
>>
>> Working my way through Nuckoll's Z-13 wiring diagram.
>> I'm building an 8-a VFR with single battery, single alternator.
>>
>> I'm not excited about the use of his "always hot" main bus because
>> of the additional wire runs it would create from the buss mounted
>> close to the rear mounted battery and difficulty accessing fuses
>> for those wires.
>>
>> I'd like to run all electrical busses from the always hot side of
>> the starter solenoid (always hot when master solenoid is hot).
>>
>> Given this scenario, it seems that the really significant system
>> weakness is the failure of the master solenoid. I was thinking
>> that a second master solenoid, with a separate wire and switch,
>> wired in parallel at the battery, would address this issue.
>>
>> Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious (or not so
>> obvious)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom H.
>>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
On Jul 13, 2014, at 6:55 AM, Tomhanaway wrote:
> Is there anything from an electrical point of view that keeps this from working.
There is no electrical reason why your idea won't work but why do it? Master solenoids
don't typically fail in-flight. They typically don't fail at all if
installed as Bob suggests, unless the posts are tightened incorrectly and twist
the internal contacts. If one does fail, you can find a replacement at a FLAPS.
If your engine has magnetos, an inflight failure won't matter. If you are
using EIs, you'll probably have ignition power straight off the battery so
it still won't matter.
Put the cost and the weight-cost of an additional heavy solenoid, additional foot
or so of heavy AWG 2-4 wire, additional panel switch and wiring against the
low chance you'll ever need it.
-Kent
Cozy IV
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
At 06:47 AM 7/13/2014, you wrote:
><kjashton@vnet.net>
>
>
>On Jul 13, 2014, at 6:55 AM, Tomhanaway wrote:
>
> > Is there anything from an electrical point of view that keeps
> this from working.
>
>There is no electrical reason why your idea won't work but why do
>it? Master solenoids don't typically fail in-flight.
. . . and even if they did, the battery-bus/e-bus
architectures are crafted to keep things comfortable
in the cockpit even if it DID fail . . . in fact,
the germinating idea behind the dual-feedpath e-bus
was to facilitate a deliberate opening of the
battery master contactor as part of load shedding
protocol for battery-only operations.
Suggest you do your own failure mode effects
analysis where you consider the risks for a
failure of any single component of your electrical
system. If you discover a failure that puts
comfortable termination of flight at risk,
then let's talk about it. I'm certain
that with judicious selection of accessories
and distribution of power, you can craft
a system where worries about the battery master
contactor are at the bottom of the risk assessment
list.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Hi All,
I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder,
a Dynon EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a
Continental IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this
configuration? It has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the
installation manuals, and they are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am
floundering around like a beginner, which I am. I may have bitten off
more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'll it give up.
At least I'm learning a whole lot.
Thanks,
Jim Gilliatt
Rhode Island
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
Just a test .Please excuse my interruption.
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 7/13/2014 10:01:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 06:47 AM 7/13/2014, you wrote:
><kjashton@vnet.net>
>
>
>On Jul 13, 2014, at 6:55 AM, Tomhanaway wrote:
>
> > Is there anything from an electrical point of view that keeps
> this from working.
>
>There is no electrical reason why your idea won't work but why do
>it? Master solenoids don't typically fail in-flight.
. . . and even if they did, the battery-bus/e-bus
architectures are crafted to keep things comfortable
in the cockpit even if it DID fail . . . in fact,
the germinating idea behind the dual-feedpath e-bus
was to facilitate a deliberate opening of the
battery master contactor as part of load shedding
protocol for battery-only operations.
Suggest you do your own failure mode effects
analysis where you consider the risks for a
failure of any single component of your electrical
system. If you discover a failure that puts
comfortable termination of flight at risk,
then let's talk about it. I'm certain
that with judicious selection of accessories
and distribution of power, you can craft
a system where worries about the battery master
contactor are at the bottom of the risk assessment
list.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Hi
I take it that 8.33 radios, and mode S transponders are not a (I presume your in)
USA requirement for new fits
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:21 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder, a Dynon
EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a Continental IO240.
Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this configuration? It
has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the installation manuals, and they
are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner,
which I am. I may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's
uncle if I'll it give up.
> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
> Thanks,
> Jim Gilliatt
> Rhode Island
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Hi John,
Not to my knowledge, and I have talked to many people who are well aware
of the requirements.
I hope I'm not showing my ignorance here.
Jim
On 7/13/2014 11:33 AM, John Tipton wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I take it that 8.33 radios, and mode S transponders are not a (I presume your
in) USA requirement for new fits
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
>
>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:21 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder, a Dynon
EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a Continental
IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this configuration? It
has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the installation manuals, and they
are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner,
which I am. I may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's
uncle if I'll it give up.
>> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
>> Thanks,
>> Jim Gilliatt
>> Rhode Island
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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|
You are so lucky Jim: over here (UK/Europe) we have to fit to new builds 8.33 radios,
and Mode S transponders, and all aircraft by the end of 2015 are to be
so equipped - a lot of surplus equipment will be available !!!
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:45 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi John,
> Not to my knowledge, and I have talked to many people who are well aware of the
requirements.
> I hope I'm not showing my ignorance here.
> Jim
>
>> On 7/13/2014 11:33 AM, John Tipton wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I take it that 8.33 radios, and mode S transponders are not a (I presume your
in) USA requirement for new fits
>>
>> John
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> ----x--O--x----
>>
>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:21 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder, a
Dynon EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a Continental
IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this configuration? It
has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the installation manuals, and they
are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner,
which I am. I may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's
uncle if I'll it give up.
>>> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jim Gilliatt
>>> Rhode Island
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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|
If you don't find what you want, contact SteinAir.com and tell them exactly what
instruments you'll be installing. They will provide a complete schematic showing
where each wire connects to each pin. Great company to do business with.
Worth it's weight in gold for those doing their own wiring. Plus, it gives you
and any future operator a reference chart for the future.
I made a copy of mine and marked off each wire as I installed them
Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 12:21 PM, John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
>
> You are so lucky Jim: over here (UK/Europe) we have to fit to new builds 8.33
radios, and Mode S transponders, and all aircraft by the end of 2015 are to be
so equipped - a lot of surplus equipment will be available !!!
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
>
>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:45 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>> Not to my knowledge, and I have talked to many people who are well aware of
the requirements.
>> I hope I'm not showing my ignorance here.
>> Jim
>>
>>> On 7/13/2014 11:33 AM, John Tipton wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I take it that 8.33 radios, and mode S transponders are not a (I presume your
in) USA requirement for new fits
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> ----x--O--x----
>>>
>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 04:21 pm, Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder, a
Dynon EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a Continental
IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this configuration?
It has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the installation manuals, and
they are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner,
which I am. I may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's
uncle if I'll it give up.
>>>> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jim Gilliatt
>>>> Rhode Island
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
At 10:24 AM 7/13/2014, you wrote:
>Just a test .Please excuse my interruption.
>
>Old Bob
>
> Do Not Archive
>
Bob,
I'm replying through the List and with a copy
to you directly. Have you sorted your email
marbles out?
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Jim,
To connect your equipment just take it one step at a time. Draw wiring
diagrams to figure out what needs to go where and then talk to your
local technical counsellor to understand how it all wires together.
Reading Bob's book (the Aeroelectric Connection) is also one of the best
ways to better understand the 'Greek'.
Start radios, leave the Dynon till later, and begin with the power and
grounds. Figure out the current draw and the size of the fuses. Ask
yourself the following questions, and keep asking until you have figured
out what is required to provide all the functions you plan to use.
Identify the pin number on the connector of the source device and where
that signal will go to on the receiving box (connector and pin number).
How will you provide the altitude information to the KT76A? Do you have
an encoder or do you plan to use the Dynon?
Do you plan to use the VOR in the KX155?
Besides the KX155 what audio inputs do you plan to the intercom?
What are you doing for a GPS? Does the EFIS need a GPS input?
We were all a beginner at one point, this stuff is not intuitive to
most, you haven't bitten off more than you can chew - just take it one
bite at a time. There are enough folks here who understand 'Greek' to
help you figure it all out.
Peter
On 13/07/2014 16:21, Jim Gilliatt wrote:
> <jim.gilliatt@att.net>
>
> Hi All,
> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A
> transponder, a Dynon EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox
> Series 7 with a Continental IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring
> diagram for this configuration? It has to be plain to a 6 year old;
> I have all the installation manuals, and they are mostly Greek to the
> uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner, which I am. I
> may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's uncle
> if I'll it give up.
> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
> Thanks,
> Jim Gilliatt
> Rhode Island
>
>
Message 13
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|
IMO the audio panel to NAV/ comm harness is where you'll most likely have trouble,
but it's easy to make once you have the info you need. PSE once had a .ppt
on their website depicting how to build that harness. I notice they took it
down and I know they won't warrant their panels unless a harness is purchased
from a dealer. I have a copy of that ppt if needed.
Bob's cartoons showing how to treat the shields and daisy chain them is good info
for you, and you need to understand shields are not used for anything but shields,
so no audio on them and they ground at one end only to prevent ground
loops. The other thing you'll run into is differing terminology between the various
brands, especially "audio low" .
The Dynon is pretty much self contained with no remote magnetometers or AHRS units,
so that simplifies things also. You'll have to plow through each install
manual several times and make some inquiries when you can't figure it out, but
it's all there.
I have my schematic for a 5000EX to Garmin stack, if you would like a copy it may
get you started in designing yours. Or maybe someone has the same equipment
as you and can supply a drawing.
One tip on the audio harness, since all the shields terminate at the audio panel,
you'll have to terminate those to wire and then D-sub pins per Bob's pics or
the .ppt. There may be too many to get them into the connector shells so you
may want to make those terminations a bit longer so all the splices can be just
outside the shell.
Pm if interested in the drawings or ppt.
Tim
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jim,
>
> To connect your equipment just take it one step at a time. Draw wiring diagrams
to figure out what needs to go where and then talk to your local technical
counsellor to understand how it all wires together. Reading Bob's book (the Aeroelectric
Connection) is also one of the best ways to better understand the 'Greek'.
>
> Start radios, leave the Dynon till later, and begin with the power and grounds.
Figure out the current draw and the size of the fuses. Ask yourself the following
questions, and keep asking until you have figured out what is required
to provide all the functions you plan to use. Identify the pin number on the connector
of the source device and where that signal will go to on the receiving
box (connector and pin number).
> How will you provide the altitude information to the KT76A? Do you have an encoder
or do you plan to use the Dynon?
> Do you plan to use the VOR in the KX155?
> Besides the KX155 what audio inputs do you plan to the intercom?
> What are you doing for a GPS? Does the EFIS need a GPS input?
>
> We were all a beginner at one point, this stuff is not intuitive to most, you
haven't bitten off more than you can chew - just take it one bite at a time.
There are enough folks here who understand 'Greek' to help you figure it all out.
>
> Peter
>
>
>> On 13/07/2014 16:21, Jim Gilliatt wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I am installing a Bendix KX155 transceiver, a Bendix KT 76A transponder, a Dynon
EFIS D100 and a PM500EX intercom in a Kitfox Series 7 with a Continental
IO240. Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram for this configuration? It
has to be plain to a 6 year old; I have all the installation manuals, and they
are mostly Greek to the uninformed; I am floundering around like a beginner,
which I am. I may have bitten off more that I can chew, but I'll be a monkey's
uncle if I'll it give up.
>> At least I'm learning a whole lot.
>> Thanks,
>> Jim Gilliatt
>> Rhode Island
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Manual for Vision microsystems EPI-800 engine monitor |
Does anyone have a digital copy of the manual for the Vision
microsystems EPI-800 engine monitor? I bought a plane with an EPI-800
installed, but most of the installation manual was lost.
I'm particularly interested in the wiring associated with the
backlighting system. At present, the backlighting doesn't work at all.
It's supposed to sense the voltage on the lighting bus. My plane has no
lighting bus, and the builder disconnected the lighting wiring for the
VOR head and the transpondes, so I assume he disconnected wiring for the
EPI-800 as well.
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Dual master solenoids |
> I'm not excited about the use of his "always hot" main bus because of the additional
wire runs it would create from the buss mounted close to the rear mounted
battery and difficulty accessing fuses for those wires.
> I'd like to run all electrical busses from the always hot side of the starter
solenoid (always hot when master solenoid is hot).
Schematics do not indicate how wires are routed in an aircraft. They show the
logic of a circuit, not necessarily the physical layout. The heavy wire that
supplies power to the main power distribution bus can be connected to either end
of the wire between the two contactors (main battery and start). Your idea
of connecting to the always hot side of the starter contactor is identical (electrically
speaking) to Bob's schematic.
> I was thinking that a second master solenoid, with a separate wire and switch,
wired in parallel at the battery, would address this issue.
Like Bob said, the E-bus circuit addresses this issue. If you would rather backup
the main battery contactor, it can be done with an automotive 30 or 40 amp
relay at a fraction of the weight. The relay must be disabled during engine
cranking, maybe like the attached circuit.
But keep in mind that the more complicated and the more components , the more
to go wrong.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426609#426609
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/backup_relay_497.pdf
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Subject: | Re: sundry questions |
Folks on the List can better sources of information
on this than I. I'm surprised about 'heat issues' . . .
these things draw about 3-5 watts in operation, the
vast majority of which gets turned into heat. Unless
there are items with localized heat-dissipation issues
(doubtful for a hand-held device), I would not expect
there to be any problems for operational heating.
My experience with the Ipad is similar to Tim Andres'. I set it in my lap
(out of its case) and unless I have
a fresh air vent directly blowing on the device it will shut down with an
over temp announcement within 30 minutes of
operation. My IT friend believes the Blue Tooth communication with the
Stratus ADS-B receiver creates a larger drain
than the Ipad would normally produce. I fly with another older handheld
moving map as backup. The Foreflght + Stratus has
tremendous capability when it's working but I don't trust it as a sole nav
source. Reliability needs improvement.
Larry Ford
Glasair I RG N149LF
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