Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:01 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek)
2. 06:05 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Ken)
3. 07:05 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:34 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:18 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Charlie England)
7. 08:30 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek)
8. 08:57 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Justin Jones)
9. 09:50 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek)
10. 10:02 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 10:27 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 11:12 AM - Test (BobsV35B@aol.com)
13. 11:32 AM - Re: Test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 11:39 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Charlie England)
15. 12:20 PM - Re: Test (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 03:21 PM - Re: Test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 04:17 PM - Re: Test (Eric Page)
18. 04:37 PM - Re: Test (William Greenley)
19. 04:55 PM - Re: Test (Kent or Jackie Ashton)
20. 05:14 PM - Re: Test (Charlie England)
21. 05:24 PM - Re: Test (Charlie England)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
you may have replied to me by accident!
that wasn't my question.
my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp breaker i
nstead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly?
you may want to refer to my email again for all details thank you !
John
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> wrote
:
>
> Charlie,
> I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the airworthiness reg
s - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to shut off all electrical pow
er, or words to that effect. If the load is 10s of amps (heated pitot, incan
descent landing light, stack of old radios, etc) then a contactor was the on
ly sensible way to go.
>
> There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and do wh
at you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. The typical
current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular switch. Some ae
robatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an SD-8. Also the load sw
itched on first operation is likely to be small if all the services are swit
ched off on shut down. I see no fundamental reason not to do what you sugges
t, although you may have to be a little more careful in how you operate.
>
> The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a double pol
e momentary may work, but you could also consider a separate switch in the l
ine to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That way if the starter relay fails c
losed at least it will be obvious.
>
> Peter
>> On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter contactors cause
d my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit disorder) to kick in.
>>
>> I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically dependent auto e
ngine conversion in an RV-7.
>> Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained contactor/bendix
, and a starter contactor, could a case be made for switching the cockpit lo
ads with smaller (lower coil current draw) contactors or even heavy duty swi
tches, and using only the heavy starter contactor between the battery & star
ter?
>>
>> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and the s
tarter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, current would still
be removed from the starter when the button is released. There would be no v
oltage available on the starter's heavy wire except during starting, as is c
urrent practice (pardon the pun). The only failed-on single point should be t
he momentary push-to-start button.
>>
>> Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more important
ly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor. If I elect to g
o with a single alternator (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main c
ontactor is a significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situatio
n. Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more (typi
cally plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only' using
common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li
st
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it
through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery bus
and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off.
My battery contactors draw less than an amp each. Do consider the
architectures here that would de-energize them in a dead alternator
situation anyway.
Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter contactors
draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only, and are designed
to interrupt large starter currents. There has been some question as to
whether a battery contactor will in fact open if the starter is running.
I will test that if my starter solenoid ever sticks on as my subaru
starter is wired through the battery contactor with no separate starter
contactor other than the integral starter solenoid. That seemed
reasonable to me and hopefully slightly safer than how all my cars are
wired. It also seemed reasonable to try preserve much of the intent of
killing all non essential electrical wiring with a contactor located at
the battery. The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is
the most dangerous electrical item on board.
Ken
On 19/07/2014 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Charlie,
> I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the airworthiness
> regs - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to shut off all
> electrical power, or words to that effect. If the load is 10s of amps
> (heated pitot, incandescent landing light, stack of old radios, etc)
> then a contactor was the only sensible way to go.
>
> There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and do
> what you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. The
> typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular
> switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an
> SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if
> all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental
> reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little
> more careful in how you operate.
>
> The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a double
> pole momentary may work, but you could also consider a separate switch
> in the line to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That way if the starter
> relay fails closed at least it will be obvious.
>
> Peter
>
> On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com
> <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter contactors
> caused my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit disorder) to
> kick in.
>
> I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically dependent
> auto engine conversion in an RV-7.
> Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained
> contactor/bendix, and a starter contactor, could a case be made for
> switching the cockpit loads with smaller (lower coil current draw)
> contactors or even heavy duty switches, and using only the heavy
> starter contactor between the battery & starter?
>
> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and
> the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks,
> current would still be removed from the starter when the button is
> released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy
> wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the
> pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary
> push-to-start button.
>
> Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more
> importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master
> contactor. If I elect to go with a single alternator (weight,
> simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a significant
> percentage of load in a failed alternator situation. Note that
> similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more (typically
> plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only'
> using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Charlie
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
At 07:59 AM 7/19/2014, you wrote:
>you may have replied to me by accident!
>that wasn't my question.
>my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp
>breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly?
Need to see your schematic . . . how do
you propose to use the crowbar ovm in
conjunction with a 60A breaker?
These devices are not intended to be used
in any manner other than what's depicted
in AEC or B&C drawings.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it
through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery
bus and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off.
Feeders from an always-hot bus are allowed in TC
aircraft when protected at 5A or less. This is
a crash-safety concern. For the OBAM aircraft,
one is free to wire it like any other vehicle
including automobiles that generally don't included
battery disconnect switching (except for some
racing jurisdictions).
Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter
contactors draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only,
and are designed to interrupt large starter currents. There has been
some question as to whether a battery contactor will in fact open if
the starter is running.
Was that question posed here on the List?
The answer is YES . . . it will break the
power path to a stuck starter contactor . . .
The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is the most
dangerous electrical item on board.
Precisely. I recall a conversation with an accident
investigator some years back who made the
anecdotal observation that when the airplane
burned after impact, it's battery was more
likely to be still inside a rather compact arrangement
of wreckage.
When the wreckage was widely scattered with
the battery separated from the rest
of the airplane, the incidences of post crash
fire seemed lower.
The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular
switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an
SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if
all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental
reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little
more careful in how you operate.
The battery master disconnect does not have to be
a contactor. The first airplane in which I took
dual instruction had a fat toggle switch and
a fat starter push-button . . . no contactors
at all.
I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and
the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks,
current would still be removed from the starter when the button is
released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy
wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the
pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary
push-to-start button.
Incidences of starter contactor sticking are
rare . . . the risk goes up markedly when the
pilot attempts to get the engine going with
a seriously discharged or perhaps an un-flightworthy
battery. Render due diligence in the maintenance
of your battery and don't worry about 'sicking
contactors'.
There'no prohibition for using the starter's
bui9lt in contactor-solenoid but be aware of
the extra abusive nature of pull-in spikes
with increased ware on the starter switch
cnotacts. This over-looked feature was root cause
for an AD against ACS-510 key-switches in
a bit of bureaucratic paper-thrashing that
at first produced a worthless 'fix' and was
later revised to add a spike suppression
diode to the contactor.
Bill and I pondered this phenomenon at
length in the early days of the B&C lightweight
starters and elected to side-step the
issue in it's entirety by suggesting an
EXTERNAL contactor with a lower operating
current and BUILT IN suppression diode.
This was a one-solution fits all contingency
installations and had nothing to do with
worries for contactors sticking shut.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no
for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily
abusive inrush currents for the built-in
contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been
extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in
cars too.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
On 7/19/2014 9:34 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it
> through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery
> bus and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off.
>
> * Feeders from an always-hot bus are allowed in TC
> aircraft when protected at 5A or less. This is
> a crash-safety concern. For the OBAM aircraft,
> one is free to wire it like any other vehicle
> including automobiles that generally don't included
> battery disconnect switching (except for some
> racing jurisdictions).
> *
> Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter
> contactors draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only, and
> are designed to interrupt large starter currents. There has been some
> question as to whether a battery contactor will in fact open if the
> starter is running.
>
> * Was that question posed here on the List?
> The answer is YES . . . it will break the
> power path to a stuck starter contactor . . .
> *
> The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is the most
> dangerous electrical item on board.
>
> *Precisely. I recall a conversation with an accident
> investigator some years back who made the
> anecdotal observation that when the airplane
> burned after impact, it's battery was more
> likely to be still inside a rather compact arrangement
> of wreckage.
>
> When the wreckage was widely scattered with
> the battery separated from the rest
> of the airplane, the incidences of post crash
> fire seemed lower.
> *
> The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular
> switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an
> SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if
> all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental
> reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little
> more careful in how you operate.
>
> *The battery master disconnect does not have to be
> a contactor. The first airplane in which I took
> dual instruction had a fat toggle switch and
> a fat starter push-button . . . no contactors
> at all.
> *
> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and
> the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks,
> current would still be removed from the starter when the button is
> released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy
> wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the
> pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary
> push-to-start button.
>
> *Incidences of starter contactor sticking are
> rare . . . the risk goes up markedly when the
> pilot attempts to get the engine going with
> a seriously discharged or perhaps an un-flightworthy
> battery. Render due diligence in the maintenance
> of your battery and don't worry about 'sicking
> contactors'.
>
> There'no prohibition for using the starter's
> bui9lt in contactor-solenoid but be aware of
> the extra abusive nature of pull-in spikes
> with increased ware on the starter switch
> cnotacts. This over-looked feature was root cause
> for an AD against ACS-510 key-switches in
> a bit of bureaucratic paper-thrashing that
> at first produced a worthless 'fix' and was
> later revised to add a spike suppression
> diode to the contactor.
>
> Bill and I pondered this phenomenon at
> length in the early days of the B&C lightweight
> starters and elected to side-step the
> issue in it's entirety by suggesting an
> EXTERNAL contactor with a lower operating
> current and BUILT IN suppression diode.
>
> This was a one-solution fits all contingency
> installations and had nothing to do with
> worries for contactors sticking shut.
>
>
> *
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Just read your article (from link in subsequent post)on dual windings in
starter solenoids; very helpful.
From your comments above, it sounds like I could simply wire the
starter like the B&C design in fig 6 of the article, but directly from
the battery to run the starter. This would remove the need for the
typical heavy (and high coil current) master contactor, allowing a
lighter duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads.
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other people
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>
> See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no
>
> for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily
> abusive inrush currents for the built-in
> contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been
> extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in
> cars too.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
Jon,
You must have subscribed to the AeroElectric connection email list. Anytime a
n email is sent to "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" you will receive a copy
of that email.
It is sort of a think tank with some very knowledgeable people that read and
respond to questions.
Hope this answers your question.
Justin
On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:15, jon molek <acub@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other people
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>
>> See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no
>>
>> for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily
>> abusive inrush currents for the built-in
>> contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been
>> extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in
>> cars too.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
yes thank you that explains it I know how to stop it but my main question wa
s never answered maybe you can answer it
originally wrote
I'm installing a overvoltage module (Ovm 14) from B&C and wiring it as sugge
sted in the external regulatored diagram. (of B&C)
problem is the regulator IN shows it's hooked to a 5 amp breaker my system i
s the Cessna type system that has a 60 amp breaker only will the 60 amp brea
ker work properly meaning if I hook to that will it kick it when overloaded ?
& or will it burnout the Ovm?
or do you have another means of hooking the Ovm up ?(normally they use the f
ield it has a 5amp)
john
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> wr
ote:
>
> Jon,
>
> You must have subscribed to the AeroElectric connection email list. Anytim
e an email is sent to "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" you will receive a c
opy of that email.
>
> It is sort of a think tank with some very knowledgeable people that read a
nd respond to questions.
>
> Hope this answers your question.
>
> Justin
>
>
>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:15, jon molek <acub@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other peopl
e
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no
>>>
>>> for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily
>>> abusive inrush currents for the built-in
>>> contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been
>>> extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in
>>> cars too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> //forums.matronics.com
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
Just read your article (from link in subsequent
post)on dual windings in starter solenoids; very helpful.
From your comments above, it sounds like I could
simply wire the starter like the B&C design in
fig 6 of the article, but directly from the
battery to run the starter. This would remove the
need for the typical heavy (and high coil
current) master contactor, allowing a lighter
duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads.
Thanks,
Charlie
You wrote:
Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor
weight, and more importantly, saving the 2+amps
of draw by the normal master contactor.
Actually, 1A or less . . . See
http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
and . . .
http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
If I elect to go with a single alternator
(weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main
contactor is a significant percentage of load in a failed alternator
situation.
What size alternator do you anticipate
installing?
Note that similar engine installs have flown for
45 minutes or more (typically plenty of time to
find a runway) while operating 'battery only'
using =C2 common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations.
Is this a day-vfr fun machine or
do plan to travel? Is 45 minutes
your battery-only endurance
target . . . or would fuel endurance
be more attractive? Have you
crafted a load analysis for the purpose
of sizing the battery to your battery-
only endurance target?
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
>\
I'm installing a overvoltage module (Ovm 14) from B&C and wiring it
as suggested in the external regulatored diagram. (of B&C) problem is
the regulator IN shows it's hooked to a 5 amp breaker my system is
the Cessna type system that has a 60 amp breaker only will the 60 amp
breaker work properly meaning if I hook to that will it kick it when
overloaded ?& or will it burnout the Ovm? or do you have another
means of hooking the Ovm up ?(normally they use the field it has a 5amp)
If the system to which you are adding
ov protection is a 'Cessna type', then there
are two breakers. The 60A is the alternator
b-lead on the panel, Recommend that be replaced
with 60A current limiter on the firewall.
Also 5A breaker for the alternator field supply.
This breaker would feed one side of the
split-rocker battery-master/alternator switch. The
OVM would mount right at them master
to the feedpoint that's wired to the 5A
breaker.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Do Not Archive
Sorry for the intrusion.
Old Bob
Message 13
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At 01:11 PM 7/19/2014, you wrote:
>Do Not Archive
>
>Sorry for the intrusion.
>
>Old Bob
No problem . . . have you discovered anything
new on the difficult?
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? |
On 7/19/2014 12:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Just read your article (from link in subsequent post)on dual windings
> in starter solenoids; very helpful.
>
> From your comments above, it sounds like I could simply wire the
> starter like the B&C design in fig 6 of the article, but directly from
> the battery to run the starter. This would remove the need for the
> typical heavy (and high coil current) master contactor, allowing a
> lighter duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> *You wrote:
>
> *Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more
> importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor.
>
> * Actually, 1A or less . . . See
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t> and . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo>*If I elect to go with a single alternator
> (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a
> significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situation.
>
>
> * What size alternator do you anticipate
> installing?
>
> *Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more
> (typically plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery
> only' using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations.
>
> * Is this a day-vfr fun machine or
> do plan to travel? Is 45 minutes
> your battery-only endurance
> target . . . or would fuel endurance
> be more attractive? Have you
> crafted a load analysis for the purpose
> of sizing the battery to your battery-
> only endurance target?
>
> *
>
> Bob . . .
>
Wow; to speak Mississippi, who'd a thunk that <11 watts could heat that
chunk of metal to 160 degrees in free air.
Alternator is a Denso off a Suzuki Samurai; 60 A. Total continuous load
is ~25A; calculated load can reduce to <16A for engine-only operation,
but I suspect that it goes significantly lower in the real world. The
reason is, as I've mentioned, similar engines (Mazda rotary with
electronic injection/ignition & automotive high pressure electric fuel
pump), have flown for >45 minutes on battery-only using 'typical'
18-20AH SLA batteries.
The plane will be used day-vfr initially, but will have a panel that's
capable of IFR flight (if I ever become capable). Load for IFR would go
up by ~15A max (heated pitot).
Yes, I'd like to have the fuel endurance option. I actually have a 2nd
Denso alternator, and a 20A dynamo, one of which may yet find its way
onto the engine as 2nd source of energy. But it's really hard to add the
weight & complexity for a vfr only a/c.
Charlie
Message 15
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Good Afternoon Bob,
I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find
a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/19/2014 1:33:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
At 01:11 PM 7/19/2014, you wrote:
Do Not Archive
Sorry for the intrusion.
Old Bob
No problem . . . have you discovered anything
new on the difficult?
Bob . . .
Message 16
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At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>Good Afternoon Bob,
>
>I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list.
>Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>
Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling
with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list
traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to
the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't
mention any changes to hardware or software but
that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade
related bug.
Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine
and email application software. Also, is this the
ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
that might still be functioning as desired?
Bob . . .
Message 17
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I can't offer a solution, but I have the same issue. Anything I send to the
server is not echoed back to me, but everyone else's posts come through. D
oesn't bother me too much, as long as I see the replies.
Unfortunately, I don't: One annoying issue that could perhaps be solved on t
he server end is that many emails from the list end up in my email account's
spam folder. If the server sent all emails with a common "From" address, w
e could put that address in our address book or whitelist and stop this prob
lem immediately. But, since the server echoes each message with the origina
l sender's address in the "From" field, there's no way I can stop the spam f
ilter from grabbing them. At least no way that I've been able to discover.
Eric
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 3:20 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>> Good Afternoon Bob,
>>
>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta fi
nd a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
>>
>> Happy Skies,
>>
>> Old Bob
>
> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling with a peculiar probl
em. Seems he gets all the list traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he s
ends to the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
>
> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't mention any changes to hard
ware or software but that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade related b
ug.
>
> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine and email application sof
tware. Also, is this the ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
that might still be functioning as desired?
>
> Bob . . .
Message 18
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|
Same for me, even when just using gmail. I assumed that was how the list
works.
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
> Good Afternoon Bob,
>
> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta
> find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
>
> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling
> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list
> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to
> the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
>
> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't
> mention any changes to hardware or software but
> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade
> related bug.
>
> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine
> and email application software. Also, is this the
> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
> that might still be functioning as desired?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 19
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Maybe you are not really sending your message to the AE list but to an original
poster or to a bogus address.
I have noticed one thing in the Apple email program. If I click "reply" at the
top of the mail window, it will insert the AE address. If I click on the AE
address in the message and select "reply to sender" it will insert the original
poster's address.
My wife often starts an email. As she begins to type the recipient's address,
the mail program searches through all the old saved emails and address book and
shows her a bunch of options for that address. Unfortunately, some of the addresses
are out of date so she will sometimes send it to a bad address. Usually
she'll get a "could not deliver message" though, that's when she calls the
expert . . . :-)
-Kent
On Jul 19, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>> Good Afternoon Bob,
>>
>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find
a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
>>
>> Happy Skies,
>>
>> Old Bob
>>
>
> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling
> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list
> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to
> the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
>
> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't
> mention any changes to hardware or software but
> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade
> related bug.
>
> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine
> and email application software. Also, is this the
> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
> that might still be functioning as desired?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
Message 20
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On 7/19/2014 6:36 PM, William Greenley wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com <mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> Good Afternoon Bob,
>>
>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list.
>> Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my
>> messages!
>>
>> Happy Skies,
>>
>> Old Bob
>
> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling
> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list
> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to
> the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
>
> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't
> mention any changes to hardware or software but
> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade
> related bug.
>
> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine
> and email application software. Also, is this the
> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
> that might still be functioning as desired?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Same for me, even when just using gmail. I assumed that was how
> the list works.
>
I've had it happen to me, as well, but it doesn't seem to be consistent
and I'm pretty sure I've had it happen with other, non-Matronics lists.
For troubleshooting purposes, it might be useful to supply info on what
email client (if any) is being used. I use Thunderbird, but sometimes
check mail using Gmail's web interface using the computer in the shop.
For a while, I assumed that the host(s)'s list server software had
changed the way it distributed email, but since it's not consistent, I'm
mystified as to the cause.
Charlie
Message 21
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While that can happen, I've sent messages to various lists, not received
a copy, then gotten replies from another member quoting my message.
Charlie
On 7/19/2014 6:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote:
>
> Maybe you are not really sending your message to the AE list but to an original
poster or to a bogus address.
>
> I have noticed one thing in the Apple email program. If I click "reply" at the
top of the mail window, it will insert the AE address. If I click on the AE
address in the message and select "reply to sender" it will insert the original
poster's address.
>
> My wife often starts an email. As she begins to type the recipient's address,
the mail program searches through all the old saved emails and address book
and shows her a bunch of options for that address. Unfortunately, some of the
addresses are out of date so she will sometimes send it to a bad address. Usually
she'll get a "could not deliver message" though, that's when she calls the
expert . . . :-)
> -Kent
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>>> Good Afternoon Bob,
>>>
>>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find
a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages!
>>>
>>> Happy Skies,
>>>
>>> Old Bob
>>>
>> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling
>> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list
>> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to
>> the list. We all see them but he doesn't.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't
>> mention any changes to hardware or software but
>> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade
>> related bug.
>>
>> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine
>> and email application software. Also, is this the
>> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop
>> that might still be functioning as desired?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
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