---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/19/14: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:01 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 2. 06:05 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Ken) 3. 07:05 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:34 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:36 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:18 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Charlie England) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 8. 08:57 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Justin Jones) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 10. 10:02 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:27 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:12 AM - Test (BobsV35B@aol.com) 13. 11:32 AM - Re: Test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:39 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Charlie England) 15. 12:20 PM - Re: Test (BobsV35B@aol.com) 16. 03:21 PM - Re: Test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 04:17 PM - Re: Test (Eric Page) 18. 04:37 PM - Re: Test (William Greenley) 19. 04:55 PM - Re: Test (Kent or Jackie Ashton) 20. 05:14 PM - Re: Test (Charlie England) 21. 05:24 PM - Re: Test (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:22 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? you may have replied to me by accident! that wasn't my question. my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp breaker i nstead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? you may want to refer to my email again for all details thank you ! John Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote : > > Charlie, > I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the airworthiness reg s - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to shut off all electrical pow er, or words to that effect. If the load is 10s of amps (heated pitot, incan descent landing light, stack of old radios, etc) then a contactor was the on ly sensible way to go. > > There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and do wh at you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular switch. Some ae robatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an SD-8. Also the load sw itched on first operation is likely to be small if all the services are swit ched off on shut down. I see no fundamental reason not to do what you sugges t, although you may have to be a little more careful in how you operate. > > The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a double pol e momentary may work, but you could also consider a separate switch in the l ine to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That way if the starter relay fails c losed at least it will be obvious. > > Peter >> On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" wrote: >> Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter contactors cause d my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit disorder) to kick in. >> >> I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically dependent auto e ngine conversion in an RV-7. >> Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained contactor/bendix , and a starter contactor, could a case be made for switching the cockpit lo ads with smaller (lower coil current draw) contactors or even heavy duty swi tches, and using only the heavy starter contactor between the battery & star ter? >> >> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and the s tarter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, current would still be removed from the starter when the button is released. There would be no v oltage available on the starter's heavy wire except during starting, as is c urrent practice (pardon the pun). The only failed-on single point should be t he momentary push-to-start button. >> >> Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more important ly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor. If I elect to g o with a single alternator (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main c ontactor is a significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situatio n. Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more (typi cally plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only' using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Charlie >> >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li st >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:17 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery bus and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off. My battery contactors draw less than an amp each. Do consider the architectures here that would de-energize them in a dead alternator situation anyway. Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter contactors draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only, and are designed to interrupt large starter currents. There has been some question as to whether a battery contactor will in fact open if the starter is running. I will test that if my starter solenoid ever sticks on as my subaru starter is wired through the battery contactor with no separate starter contactor other than the integral starter solenoid. That seemed reasonable to me and hopefully slightly safer than how all my cars are wired. It also seemed reasonable to try preserve much of the intent of killing all non essential electrical wiring with a contactor located at the battery. The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is the most dangerous electrical item on board. Ken On 19/07/2014 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > Charlie, > I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the airworthiness > regs - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to shut off all > electrical power, or words to that effect. If the load is 10s of amps > (heated pitot, incandescent landing light, stack of old radios, etc) > then a contactor was the only sensible way to go. > > There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and do > what you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. The > typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular > switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an > SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if > all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental > reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little > more careful in how you operate. > > The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a double > pole momentary may work, but you could also consider a separate switch > in the line to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That way if the starter > relay fails closed at least it will be obvious. > > Peter > > On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" > wrote: > > Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter contactors > caused my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit disorder) to > kick in. > > I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically dependent > auto engine conversion in an RV-7. > Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained > contactor/bendix, and a starter contactor, could a case be made for > switching the cockpit loads with smaller (lower coil current draw) > contactors or even heavy duty switches, and using only the heavy > starter contactor between the battery & starter? > > I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and > the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, > current would still be removed from the starter when the button is > released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy > wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the > pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary > push-to-start button. > > Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more > importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master > contactor. If I elect to go with a single alternator (weight, > simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a significant > percentage of load in a failed alternator situation. Note that > similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more (typically > plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only' > using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. > > Thoughts? > > Charlie > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? At 07:59 AM 7/19/2014, you wrote: >you may have replied to me by accident! >that wasn't my question. >my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp >breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? Need to see your schematic . . . how do you propose to use the crowbar ovm in conjunction with a 60A breaker? These devices are not intended to be used in any manner other than what's depicted in AEC or B&C drawings. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery bus and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off. Feeders from an always-hot bus are allowed in TC aircraft when protected at 5A or less. This is a crash-safety concern. For the OBAM aircraft, one is free to wire it like any other vehicle including automobiles that generally don't included battery disconnect switching (except for some racing jurisdictions). Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter contactors draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only, and are designed to interrupt large starter currents. There has been some question as to whether a battery contactor will in fact open if the starter is running. Was that question posed here on the List? The answer is YES . . . it will break the power path to a stuck starter contactor . . . The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is the most dangerous electrical item on board. Precisely. I recall a conversation with an accident investigator some years back who made the anecdotal observation that when the airplane burned after impact, it's battery was more likely to be still inside a rather compact arrangement of wreckage. When the wreckage was widely scattered with the battery separated from the rest of the airplane, the incidences of post crash fire seemed lower. The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little more careful in how you operate. The battery master disconnect does not have to be a contactor. The first airplane in which I took dual instruction had a fat toggle switch and a fat starter push-button . . . no contactors at all. I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, current would still be removed from the starter when the button is released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary push-to-start button. Incidences of starter contactor sticking are rare . . . the risk goes up markedly when the pilot attempts to get the engine going with a seriously discharged or perhaps an un-flightworthy battery. Render due diligence in the maintenance of your battery and don't worry about 'sicking contactors'. There'no prohibition for using the starter's bui9lt in contactor-solenoid but be aware of the extra abusive nature of pull-in spikes with increased ware on the starter switch cnotacts. This over-looked feature was root cause for an AD against ACS-510 key-switches in a bit of bureaucratic paper-thrashing that at first produced a worthless 'fix' and was later revised to add a spike suppression diode to the contactor. Bill and I pondered this phenomenon at length in the early days of the B&C lightweight starters and elected to side-step the issue in it's entirety by suggesting an EXTERNAL contactor with a lower operating current and BUILT IN suppression diode. This was a one-solution fits all contingency installations and had nothing to do with worries for contactors sticking shut. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily abusive inrush currents for the built-in contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in cars too. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:55 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? On 7/19/2014 9:34 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > In regards to electric dependent engines, it is common to NOT feed it > through a battery "contactor" anyway. My engine runs off the battery > bus and will keep running if the master switch/contactor is off. > > * Feeders from an always-hot bus are allowed in TC > aircraft when protected at 5A or less. This is > a crash-safety concern. For the OBAM aircraft, > one is free to wire it like any other vehicle > including automobiles that generally don't included > battery disconnect switching (except for some > racing jurisdictions). > * > Note that unlike continuous duty battery contactors, starter > contactors draw several amps, are rated for intermittent use only, and > are designed to interrupt large starter currents. There has been some > question as to whether a battery contactor will in fact open if the > starter is running. > > * Was that question posed here on the List? > The answer is YES . . . it will break the > power path to a stuck starter contactor . . . > * > The battery, with its ability to deliver large currents, is the most > dangerous electrical item on board. > > *Precisely. I recall a conversation with an accident > investigator some years back who made the > anecdotal observation that when the airplane > burned after impact, it's battery was more > likely to be still inside a rather compact arrangement > of wreckage. > > When the wreckage was widely scattered with > the battery separated from the rest > of the airplane, the incidences of post crash > fire seemed lower. > * > The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular > switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an > SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to be small if > all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no fundamental > reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have to be a little > more careful in how you operate. > > *The battery master disconnect does not have to be > a contactor. The first airplane in which I took > dual instruction had a fat toggle switch and > a fat starter push-button . . . no contactors > at all. > * > I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and > the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, > current would still be removed from the starter when the button is > released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy > wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon the > pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary > push-to-start button. > > *Incidences of starter contactor sticking are > rare . . . the risk goes up markedly when the > pilot attempts to get the engine going with > a seriously discharged or perhaps an un-flightworthy > battery. Render due diligence in the maintenance > of your battery and don't worry about 'sicking > contactors'. > > There'no prohibition for using the starter's > bui9lt in contactor-solenoid but be aware of > the extra abusive nature of pull-in spikes > with increased ware on the starter switch > cnotacts. This over-looked feature was root cause > for an AD against ACS-510 key-switches in > a bit of bureaucratic paper-thrashing that > at first produced a worthless 'fix' and was > later revised to add a spike suppression > diode to the contactor. > > Bill and I pondered this phenomenon at > length in the early days of the B&C lightweight > starters and elected to side-step the > issue in it's entirety by suggesting an > EXTERNAL contactor with a lower operating > current and BUILT IN suppression diode. > > This was a one-solution fits all contingency > installations and had nothing to do with > worries for contactors sticking shut. > > > * > > Bob . . . > > Just read your article (from link in subsequent post)on dual windings in starter solenoids; very helpful. From your comments above, it sounds like I could simply wire the starter like the B&C design in fig 6 of the article, but directly from the battery to run the starter. This would remove the need for the typical heavy (and high coil current) master contactor, allowing a lighter duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads. Thanks, Charlie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:28 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other people Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no > > for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily > abusive inrush currents for the built-in > contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been > extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in > cars too. > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? From: Justin Jones Jon, You must have subscribed to the AeroElectric connection email list. Anytime a n email is sent to "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" you will receive a copy of that email. It is sort of a think tank with some very knowledgeable people that read and respond to questions. Hope this answers your question. Justin On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:15, jon molek wrote: > why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other people > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > >> See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no >> >> for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily >> abusive inrush currents for the built-in >> contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been >> extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in >> cars too. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:18 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? yes thank you that explains it I know how to stop it but my main question wa s never answered maybe you can answer it originally wrote I'm installing a overvoltage module (Ovm 14) from B&C and wiring it as sugge sted in the external regulatored diagram. (of B&C) problem is the regulator IN shows it's hooked to a 5 amp breaker my system i s the Cessna type system that has a 60 amp breaker only will the 60 amp brea ker work properly meaning if I hook to that will it kick it when overloaded ? & or will it burnout the Ovm? or do you have another means of hooking the Ovm up ?(normally they use the f ield it has a 5amp) john Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 19, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Justin Jones wr ote: > > Jon, > > You must have subscribed to the AeroElectric connection email list. Anytim e an email is sent to "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" you will receive a c opy of that email. > > It is sort of a think tank with some very knowledgeable people that read a nd respond to questions. > > Hope this answers your question. > > Justin > > >> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:15, jon molek wrote: >> >> why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other peopl e >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:36 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: >>> >>> See http://tinyurl.com/ott27no >>> >>> for an explanation of the extra-ordinarily >>> abusive inrush currents for the built-in >>> contactor-solenoid. This phenomenon has been >>> extra-ordinarily hard on key-starts switches in >>> cars too. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >> >> >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> //forums.matronics.com >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? Just read your article (from link in subsequent post)on dual windings in starter solenoids; very helpful. From your comments above, it sounds like I could simply wire the starter like the B&C design in fig 6 of the article, but directly from the battery to run the starter. This would remove the need for the typical heavy (and high coil current) master contactor, allowing a lighter duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads. Thanks, Charlie You wrote: Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor. Actually, 1A or less . . . See http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t and . . . http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo If I elect to go with a single alternator (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situation. What size alternator do you anticipate installing? Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more (typically plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only' using =C2 common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. Is this a day-vfr fun machine or do plan to travel? Is 45 minutes your battery-only endurance target . . . or would fuel endurance be more attractive? Have you crafted a load analysis for the purpose of sizing the battery to your battery- only endurance target? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? >\ I'm installing a overvoltage module (Ovm 14) from B&C and wiring it as suggested in the external regulatored diagram. (of B&C) problem is the regulator IN shows it's hooked to a 5 amp breaker my system is the Cessna type system that has a 60 amp breaker only will the 60 amp breaker work properly meaning if I hook to that will it kick it when overloaded ?& or will it burnout the Ovm? or do you have another means of hooking the Ovm up ?(normally they use the field it has a 5amp) If the system to which you are adding ov protection is a 'Cessna type', then there are two breakers. The 60A is the alternator b-lead on the panel, Recommend that be replaced with 60A current limiter on the firewall. Also 5A breaker for the alternator field supply. This breaker would feed one side of the split-rocker battery-master/alternator switch. The OVM would mount right at them master to the feedpoint that's wired to the 5A breaker. Bob . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:44 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Test Do Not Archive Sorry for the intrusion. Old Bob ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test At 01:11 PM 7/19/2014, you wrote: >Do Not Archive > >Sorry for the intrusion. > >Old Bob No problem . . . have you discovered anything new on the difficult? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:25 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? On 7/19/2014 12:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Just read your article (from link in subsequent post)on dual windings > in starter solenoids; very helpful. > > From your comments above, it sounds like I could simply wire the > starter like the B&C design in fig 6 of the article, but directly from > the battery to run the starter. This would remove the need for the > typical heavy (and high coil current) master contactor, allowing a > lighter duty relay or switch for the in-cabin loads. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > *You wrote: > > *Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more > importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor. > > * Actually, 1A or less . . . See > > http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t > > and . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo > > *If I elect to go with a single alternator > (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a > significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situation. > > > * What size alternator do you anticipate > installing? > > *Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more > (typically plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery > only' using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. > > * Is this a day-vfr fun machine or > do plan to travel? Is 45 minutes > your battery-only endurance > target . . . or would fuel endurance > be more attractive? Have you > crafted a load analysis for the purpose > of sizing the battery to your battery- > only endurance target? > > * > > Bob . . . > Wow; to speak Mississippi, who'd a thunk that <11 watts could heat that chunk of metal to 160 degrees in free air. Alternator is a Denso off a Suzuki Samurai; 60 A. Total continuous load is ~25A; calculated load can reduce to <16A for engine-only operation, but I suspect that it goes significantly lower in the real world. The reason is, as I've mentioned, similar engines (Mazda rotary with electronic injection/ignition & automotive high pressure electric fuel pump), have flown for >45 minutes on battery-only using 'typical' 18-20AH SLA batteries. The plane will be used day-vfr initially, but will have a panel that's capable of IFR flight (if I ever become capable). Load for IFR would go up by ~15A max (heated pitot). Yes, I'd like to have the fuel endurance option. I actually have a 2nd Denso alternator, and a 20A dynamo, one of which may yet find its way onto the engine as 2nd source of energy. But it's really hard to add the weight & complexity for a vfr only a/c. Charlie ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:11 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test Good Afternoon Bob, I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/19/2014 1:33:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: At 01:11 PM 7/19/2014, you wrote: Do Not Archive Sorry for the intrusion. Old Bob No problem . . . have you discovered anything new on the difficult? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >Good Afternoon Bob, > >I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. >Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob > Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to the list. We all see them but he doesn't. Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't mention any changes to hardware or software but that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade related bug. Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine and email application software. Also, is this the ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop that might still be functioning as desired? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: Eric Page I can't offer a solution, but I have the same issue. Anything I send to the server is not echoed back to me, but everyone else's posts come through. D oesn't bother me too much, as long as I see the replies. Unfortunately, I don't: One annoying issue that could perhaps be solved on t he server end is that many emails from the list end up in my email account's spam folder. If the server sent all emails with a common "From" address, w e could put that address in our address book or whitelist and stop this prob lem immediately. But, since the server echoes each message with the origina l sender's address in the "From" field, there's no way I can stop the spam f ilter from grabbing them. At least no way that I've been able to discover. Eric > On Jul 19, 2014, at 3:20 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >> Good Afternoon Bob, >> >> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta fi nd a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! >> >> Happy Skies, >> >> Old Bob > > Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling with a peculiar probl em. Seems he gets all the list traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he s ends to the list. We all see them but he doesn't. > > Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't mention any changes to hard ware or software but that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade related b ug. > > Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine and email application sof tware. Also, is this the ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop that might still be functioning as desired? > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: William Greenley Same for me, even when just using gmail. I assumed that was how the list works. On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > > Good Afternoon Bob, > > I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta > find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > > Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling > with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list > traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to > the list. We all see them but he doesn't. > > Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't > mention any changes to hardware or software but > that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade > related bug. > > Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine > and email application software. Also, is this the > ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop > that might still be functioning as desired? > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: Kent or Jackie Ashton Maybe you are not really sending your message to the AE list but to an original poster or to a bogus address. I have noticed one thing in the Apple email program. If I click "reply" at the top of the mail window, it will insert the AE address. If I click on the AE address in the message and select "reply to sender" it will insert the original poster's address. My wife often starts an email. As she begins to type the recipient's address, the mail program searches through all the old saved emails and address book and shows her a bunch of options for that address. Unfortunately, some of the addresses are out of date so she will sometimes send it to a bad address. Usually she'll get a "could not deliver message" though, that's when she calls the expert . . . :-) -Kent On Jul 19, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >> Good Afternoon Bob, >> >> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! >> >> Happy Skies, >> >> Old Bob >> > > Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling > with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list > traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to > the list. We all see them but he doesn't. > > Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't > mention any changes to hardware or software but > that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade > related bug. > > Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine > and email application software. Also, is this the > ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop > that might still be functioning as desired? > > > Bob . . . > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:46 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test On 7/19/2014 6:36 PM, William Greenley wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > wrote: > > At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com > wrote: >> Good Afternoon Bob, >> >> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. >> Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my >> messages! >> >> Happy Skies, >> >> Old Bob > > Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling > with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list > traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to > the list. We all see them but he doesn't. > > Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't > mention any changes to hardware or software but > that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade > related bug. > > Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine > and email application software. Also, is this the > ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop > that might still be functioning as desired? > > > Bob . . . > > Same for me, even when just using gmail. I assumed that was how > the list works. > I've had it happen to me, as well, but it doesn't seem to be consistent and I'm pretty sure I've had it happen with other, non-Matronics lists. For troubleshooting purposes, it might be useful to supply info on what email client (if any) is being used. I use Thunderbird, but sometimes check mail using Gmail's web interface using the computer in the shop. For a while, I assumed that the host(s)'s list server software had changed the way it distributed email, but since it's not consistent, I'm mystified as to the cause. Charlie ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:39 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test While that can happen, I've sent messages to various lists, not received a copy, then gotten replies from another member quoting my message. Charlie On 7/19/2014 6:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > > Maybe you are not really sending your message to the AE list but to an original poster or to a bogus address. > > I have noticed one thing in the Apple email program. If I click "reply" at the top of the mail window, it will insert the AE address. If I click on the AE address in the message and select "reply to sender" it will insert the original poster's address. > > My wife often starts an email. As she begins to type the recipient's address, the mail program searches through all the old saved emails and address book and shows her a bunch of options for that address. Unfortunately, some of the addresses are out of date so she will sometimes send it to a bad address. Usually she'll get a "could not deliver message" though, that's when she calls the expert . . . :-) > -Kent > > > On Jul 19, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >>> Good Afternoon Bob, >>> >>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! >>> >>> Happy Skies, >>> >>> Old Bob >>> >> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling >> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list >> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to >> the list. We all see them but he doesn't. >> >> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't >> mention any changes to hardware or software but >> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade >> related bug. >> >> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine >> and email application software. Also, is this the >> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop >> that might still be functioning as desired? >> >> >> Bob . . . >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.