---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/20/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:26 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (user9253) 2. 03:18 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Peter Pengilly) 3. 03:33 AM - Re: Test (Tony Babb) 4. 04:14 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 5. 04:24 AM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 6. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 7. 04:36 AM - Re: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (jon molek) 8. 06:00 AM - Re: Test (GLEN MATEJCEK) 9. 12:11 PM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (bobsv35b@aol.com) 10. 12:19 PM - Re: Test (bobsv35b@aol.com) 11. 06:31 PM - Re: Test (bobsv35b@aol.com) 12. 07:37 PM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (user9253) 13. 07:52 PM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:59 PM - Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 10:15 PM - Re: Test (Tony Babb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? From: "user9253" > my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? A 60 amp breaker will most likely damage the OVM. No, it will not work properly and could cause a fire. An alternator has two separate circuits: field circuit and stator circuit. The 60 amp breaker protects the battery and wiring from a shorted alternator stator winding. A 5 amp breaker protects the electrical system from a shorted alternator field. The crowbar type OVM is designed to trip a 5 amp breaker. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426989#426989 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:29 AM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? I was replying to Charlie's questions about using a switch instead of a contactor - that's why it is addressed to Charlie. Why try to re-design the B&C implementation? Circuit breakers are reasonably cheap, just go buy a 5a c/b! I don't know how the B&C circuit was designed, but using a 60A c/b will probably mean it doesn't work properly (takes too long to work) so I suspect something expensive you are trying to protect will be damaged. Peter On 19/07/2014 13:59, jon molek wrote: > you may have replied to me by accident! > that wasn't my question. > my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp > breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? > you may want to refer to my email again for all details thank you ! > John > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly > wrote: > >> Charlie, >> I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the >> airworthiness regs - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to >> shut off all electrical power, or words to that effect. If the load >> is 10s of amps (heated pitot, incandescent landing light, stack of >> old radios, etc) then a contactor was the only sensible way to go. >> >> There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and >> do what you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. >> The typical current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a >> regular switch. Some aerobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only >> use an SD-8. Also the load switched on first operation is likely to >> be small if all the services are switched off on shut down. I see no >> fundamental reason not to do what you suggest, although you may have >> to be a little more careful in how you operate. >> >> The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a >> double pole momentary may work, but you could also consider a >> separate switch in the line to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That >> way if the starter relay fails closed at least it will be obvious. >> >> Peter >> >> On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" > > wrote: >> >> Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter >> contactors caused my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit >> disorder) to kick in. >> >> I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically >> dependent auto engine conversion in an RV-7. >> Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained >> contactor/bendix, and a starter contactor, could a case be made >> for switching the cockpit loads with smaller (lower coil current >> draw) contactors or even heavy duty switches, and using only the >> heavy starter contactor between the battery & starter? >> >> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor >> and the starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, >> current would still be removed from the starter when the button >> is released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's >> heavy wire except during starting, as is current practice (pardon >> the pun). The only failed-on single point should be the momentary >> push-to-start button. >> >> Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more >> importantly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master >> contactor. If I elect to go with a single alternator (weight, >> simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the main contactor is a >> significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situation. >> Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or >> more (typically plenty of time to find a runway) while operating >> 'battery only' using common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Charlie >> >> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:45 AM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Test I don't have a complete answer for you as a couple of you were using aol addresses but I do know that if you're using a gmail address and send a message or reply to a group which contains your gmail address then gmail does not display your message in your Inbox. Here's a link to a gmail forum that confirms this is how gmail is designed to work, it does offer a workaround https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/RPxyd7uW4Hc Tony Babb -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:18 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test --> While that can happen, I've sent messages to various lists, not received a copy, then gotten replies from another member quoting my message. Charlie On 7/19/2014 6:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > --> > > Maybe you are not really sending your message to the AE list but to an original poster or to a bogus address. > > I have noticed one thing in the Apple email program. If I click "reply" at the top of the mail window, it will insert the AE address. If I click on the AE address in the message and select "reply to sender" it will insert the original poster's address. > > My wife often starts an email. As she begins to type the recipient's address, the mail program searches through all the old saved emails and address book and shows her a bunch of options for that address. Unfortunately, some of the addresses are out of date so she will sometimes send it to a bad address. Usually she'll get a "could not deliver message" though, that's when she calls the expert . . . :-) > -Kent > > > On Jul 19, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >>> Good Afternoon Bob, >>> >>> I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gotta find a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! >>> >>> Happy Skies, >>> >>> Old Bob >>> >> Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling >> with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list >> traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to >> the list. We all see them but he doesn't. >> >> Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't >> mention any changes to hardware or software but >> that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade >> related bug. >> >> Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine >> and email application software. Also, is this the >> ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop >> that might still be functioning as desired? >> >> >> Bob . . . >> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:18 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? I tried using five amp breaker it won't kick the alternator in have to have a 60 amp I guess Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2014, at 6:14 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote : > > I was replying to Charlie's questions about using a switch instead of a co ntactor - that's why it is addressed to Charlie. > > Why try to re-design the B&C implementation? Circuit breakers are reasonab ly cheap, just go buy a 5a c/b! > I don't know how the B&C circuit was designed, but using a 60A c/b will pr obably mean it doesn't work properly (takes too long to work) so I suspect s omething expensive you are trying to protect will be damaged. > > Peter > >> On 19/07/2014 13:59, jon molek wrote: >> you may have replied to me by accident! >> that wasn't my question. >> my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp break er instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly ? >> you may want to refer to my email again for all details thank you ! >> John >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrot e: >> >>> Charlie, >>> I believe the driver for a master contacted has been the airworthiness r egs - FAR23 and CS23 - which require one switch to shut off all e lectrical power, or words to that effect. If the load is 10s of amps (heated pitot, incandescent landing light, stack of old radios, etc) then a contact or was the only sensible way to go. >>> >>> There are now good reasons to question that kind of requirement, and do w hat you suggest. In my aeroplane, that has a conventional engine. The typica l current draw is 8amps, which could be switched by a regular switch. Some a erobatic aeroplanes do that, by they often only use an SD-8. Also the load s witched on first operation is likely to be small if all the services are swi tched off on shut down. I see no fundamental reason not to do what you sugge st, although you may have to be a little more careful in how you operate. >>> >>> The only draw back is the stuck starter relay scenario. Using a double p ole momentary may work, but you could also consider a separate switch in the line to the starter piggy-back solenoid. That way if the starter relay fail s closed at least it will be obvious. >>> >>> Peter >>>> On Jul 18, 2014 8:35 PM, "Charlie England" wrote : >>>> Someone's recent question/comment about master & starter contactors cau sed my ARADD (aviation related attention deficit disorder) to kick in. >>>> >>>> I'm just beginning the wiring process on an electrically dependent auto engine conversion in an RV-7. >>>> Given the typical automotive starter with self-contained contactor/bend ix, and a starter contactor, could a case be made for switching the cockpit l oads with smaller (lower coil current draw) contactors or even heavy duty sw itches, and using only the heavy starter contactor between the battery & sta rter? >>>> >>>> I'm envisioning the starter button activating both the contactor and th e starter's built-in contactor. This way, if either sticks, current would st ill be removed from the starter when the button is released. There would be no voltage available on the starter's heavy wire except du ring starting, as is current practice (pardon the pun). The only failed-on s ingle point should be the momentary push-to-start button. >>>> >>>> Motivation is saving a few ounces of contactor weight, and more importa ntly, saving the 2+amps of draw by the normal master contactor. If I elect t o go with a single alternator (weight, simplicity), the 2 amp draw of the ma in contactor is a significant percentage of load in a failed alternator situ ation. Note that similar engine installs have flown for 45 minutes or more ( typically plenty of time to find a runway) while operating 'battery only' us ing common 18-20 AH SLA battery installations. >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- List >>>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:57 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? you're saying instead of hooking it to the reg in from the alternator to th e regulator ,Hook it to the field which has a five amp that's what I thought I would do but didn't know if it would work do I still need to change to a voltage limiter on the firewall ?if so what i s it ?where do I get one? Thank you John Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 19, 2014, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > >> \ > > > > I'm installing a overvoltage module (Ovm 14) from B&C and wiring it as sug gested in the external regulatored diagram. (of B&C) problem is the regulato r IN shows it's hooked to a 5 amp breaker my system is the Cessna type syste m that has a 60 amp breaker only will the 60 amp breaker work properly meani ng if I hook to that will it kick it when overloaded ?& or will it burnout t he Ovm? or do you have another means of hooking the Ovm up ?(normally they u se the field it has a 5amp) > > > If the system to which you are adding > ov protection is a 'Cessna type', then there > are two breakers. The 60A is the alternator > b-lead on the panel, Recommend that be replaced > with 60A current limiter on the firewall. > > Also 5A breaker for the alternator field supply. > This breaker would feed one side of the > split-rocker battery-master/alternator switch. The > OVM would mount right at them master > to the feedpoint that's wired to the 5A > breaker. > > Bob . . . > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:02 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? that's my thinking also but according to the drawing it says to hook to the regulator and not the field if he wanted to hook it to the field it would've said so so I'm confused do I split the regulator in or split the field the field has the breaker on & the regulator in doesn't Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2014, at 5:25 AM, "user9253" wrote: > > > >> my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? > > A 60 amp breaker will most likely damage the OVM. No, it will not work properly and could cause a fire. An alternator has two separate circuits: field circuit and stator circuit. The 60 amp breaker protects the battery and wiring from a shorted alternator stator winding. A 5 amp breaker protects the electrical system from a shorted alternator field. The crowbar type OVM is designed to trip a 5 amp breaker. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426989#426989 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:43 AM PST US From: jon molek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? it sounds to me it's saying hook it to a five amp breaker the controls the system Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2014, at 5:25 AM, "user9253" wrote: > > > >> my question was on a overvoltage module (ovm) from B&C using 60 amp breaker instead of a 5 amp will it hurt the ovm and will it work properly? > > A 60 amp breaker will most likely damage the OVM. No, it will not work properly and could cause a fire. An alternator has two separate circuits: field circuit and stator circuit. The 60 amp breaker protects the battery and wiring from a shorted alternator stator winding. A 5 amp breaker protects the electrical system from a shorted alternator field. The crowbar type OVM is designed to trip a 5 amp breaker. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426989#426989 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: GLEN MATEJCEK How odd. I have gmail and get the digest, and have no such issues. However, on another venue that is hosted on yahoo, I will sometimes get peoples replies without ever having gotten the original post. Gotta love technology. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? From: bobsv35b@aol.com Test Too! Old Bob ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: bobsv35b@aol.com Test Again! Old Bob Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test From: bobsv35b@aol.com Bob- This is Old Bob's son Bob, and I have been trying to look into why he does not receive the emails that he sends to the list. According to a help page on AOL, the contents of which are attached, it seems to be associated with the way that AOL handles messages from mailing list servers. I do not see a ny work-around, but if someone else has some insight I will try to help Old Bob make whatever changes that might be required. Regards, Bob Siegfried, II -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III @aol.com> Sent: Sat, Jul 19, 2014 5:22 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test At 02:18 PM 7/19/2014, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: Good Afternoon Bob, I still am not getting a copy of anything I send to the AE list. Gottafind a good techie to see why my machine is blocking my messages! Happy Skies, Old Bob Any pc byte thrashers out here? Ol' Bob is wrestling with a peculiar problem. Seems he gets all the list traffic to his mailbox EXCEPT those which he sends to the list. We all see them but he doesn't. Any suggestions as to where to look? He didn't mention any changes to hardware or software but that doesn't preclude some kind of an upgrade related bug. Bob, give us a top level rundown of your machine and email application software. Also, is this the ONLY machine you have? Do you perhaps have a laptop that might still be functioning as desired? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:16 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? From: "user9253" John, Is the O.V. module being installed in an experimental airplane? What make and model is it? Are we talking about an alternator or dynamo or generator? Is there an external voltage regulator? Is this an existing electrical system that you are adding an O.V. module to? If there is an existing alternator and external voltage regulator, then there should also be a fuse or circuit breaker that supplies power to the voltage regulator. The O.V. module needs to be connected between the 5 amp circuit breaker and the voltage regulator (which is part of the field circuit). Good advice can not be given without knowing all of the facts. It is better to not install an O.V. module than to install it incorrectly. > . . . .you may want to refer to my email again for all details thank you ! I can not find your original posting. > why am I getting everybody's questions and answers to me from other people Because you are posting in someone else's thread. > > do I still need to change to a voltage limiter on the firewall ?if so what is it ? Do you mean current limiter? It is sort of a robust very slow blow fuse. Search for MIDI fuse or ANL fuse. A current limiter is a good idea, but is unrelated to the O.V. module. > do I split the regulator in or split the field the field has the breaker on & the regulator in doesn't Sorry, I do not understand that. If installing an O.V. module to an existing electrical system, no splitting is necessary. Connect the O.V. module to the wire that goes between the 5 amp breaker and the voltage regulator. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427018#427018 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? At 06:13 AM 7/20/2014, you wrote: >I tried using five amp breaker it won't kick the alternator in >have to have a 60 amp I guess > >Sent from my iPhone A picture may be worth 10,000 words . . . but 10,000 words never describes the same picture in the minds of all readers. Are you wiring to a published schematic that we can download and all pray over at the same time? If you've modified a published schematic, then a scanned copy of your changes will offer all of us a reasonable chance of understanding your design goals and offering a solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Are 'serial' contactors really needed? At 06:13 AM 7/20/2014, you wrote: >I tried using five amp breaker it won't kick the alternator in >have to have a 60 amp I guess > >Sent from my iPhone A picture may be worth 10,000 words . . . but 10,000 words never describes the same picture in the minds of all readers. Are you wiring to a published schematic that we can download and all pray over at the same time? If you've modified a published schematic, then a scanned copy of your changes will offer all of us a reasonable chance of understanding your design goals and offering a solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:57 PM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Test Glen, I=99d guess that=99s why. You=99re getting the digest and not individual messages so gmail can=99t tell that the incoming message was sent by you as it=99s just one of many messages with the digest. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GLEN MATEJCEK Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 6:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test How odd. I have gmail and get the digest, and have no such issues. However, on another venue that is hosted on yahoo, I will sometimes get peoples replies without ever having gotten the original post. 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