Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Justin Jones)
2. 09:56 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Sacha)
3. 12:43 PM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 01:03 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 01:08 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 03:45 PM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Dj Merrill)
7. 08:26 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones)
8. 09:08 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Jeff Luckey)
9. 10:41 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:51 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones)
11. 10:54 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Ryan Brown)
12. 11:04 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: RG / AGM Batteries |
Thanks for the info!
On Aug 16, 2014, at 20:04, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/16/2014 8:25 PM, Justin Jones wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone considered using or used any of the AGM automotive batteries? They
seem to be a bit larger, but are they the safe to use in aircraft? Duracell,
Everstart, Rayovac, and other brands are inexpensive and readily available.
Thoughts on these RG batteries?
> I'd bet that the percentage of homebuilts built in the last decade use RG batteries
is approaching 100. This:
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=odyssey+pc680
> is the 'gold standard', but a lot of us use much less expensive ones like:
> http://www.apexbattery.com/golden-top-battery-cb2012sla-battery-sealed-lead-acid-batteries-golden-top-battery.html
>
> The ones like the Apex I linked, that are made for UPS's & electric wheel chairs,
don't work quite as well as starting batteries as the Odyssey, but by going
to the 20AH, it has worked great for me for several years.
>
> There are many other choices; just google RG or AGM battery.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
Worked for me both times.
Do not archive
> On 17 Aug 2014, at 08:04, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> I was unable to view the attachment on the prior posting - perhaps the PDF got
corrupted in the upload.
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: RG / AGM Batteries |
At 08:25 PM 8/16/2014, you wrote:
<jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
Has anyone considered using or used any of the AGM automotive
batteries? They seem to be a bit larger, but are they the safe to
use in aircraft? Duracell, Everstart, Rayovac, and other brands are
inexpensive and readily available. Thoughts on these RG batteries?
The term 'aircraft battery' has never been
very relevant except to denote a product
with features that are friendly to aviation.
Like spill resistant vent-caps and
closed manifolds with drain tubes. But to call
this uniquely 'aircraft' implies no other
application (like atv's, wave runners, snow-
mobiles, motorcycles, etc, would not benefit
from the same features.
The valve regulated sealed lead-acid battery
not only eliminates the need for 'spill proofing'
and/or plumbing that conducts spills overboard,
it also offers superior performance over its
flooded or gelled cousins.
The only risks associated with selection of
any VRSLA product are grounded in cranking
performance (ability to deliver substantial
short term loads in to fat wires), capacity
(keeping necessary fires lit for predictable
endurance), quality of the chemistry (how
many charge-discharge cycles before it degrades
to 80% of capacity) and behaviors under severe
stress (overcharge, high-current discharge, etc).
This is generally true of any sealed technology
including but not limited to lead-acid, Ni-Mh,
lithium, etc. etc.
Be an informed shopper armed with the notion that
the term 'aircraft' on the label may well be
nothing more useful than an justification for
a higher asking price . . . assuming of course
that you're not required to have a label that
speaks to TSO.
There is no database that speaks to the $value$
of any particular product over another when
compared under the same operating conditions.
If it's a low-cost battery, then it's a low-cost
experiment. If you watch over the experiment with
some notions of meeting your established
performance goals, then risks to system reliability
are quite low as well.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all
the time . . .
Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
while the other three do . . . what happens?
Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
power interruption, what happens?
Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
what happens?
The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
every component of the system and asks:
How can this part fail?
If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
If not immediately noticed or annunciated by
warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
If it does fail, how is probable outcome of
the flight affected?
If it is necessary for comfortable continuation
of flight, what are my alternatives?
Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
of system reliability
Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break"
The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no
immediate hazard is created."
The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for
comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives."
The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or
capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it
or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near
got you killed."
Before you march off to craft a never fails power
source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
comfortably tolerant of such failures.
Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
that supports engine operations to be powered at all
times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
sure that you want to install it on your airplane?
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
>The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered
>all the time . . .
Is there a down-loadable installation manual
on this system?
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: RG / AGM Batteries |
On 8/17/2014 3:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> If it's a low-cost battery, then it's a low-cost
> experiment. If you watch over the experiment with
> some notions of meeting your established
> performance goals, then risks to system reliability
> are quite low as well.
Listers may recall that I tried one of the UB12220 batteries about a
month ago:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G8FY38/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I received the battery, put it on the Schumacher charger to ensure it
was fully charged (verified with a voltmeter when done), and installed
in the aircraft (O-320). Cranked over well on the first try and seemed
to turn the engine just as well as the "aircraft" battery that I had
removed.
However, two days later I took the airplane out again, and the blade
turned about 1/3 of the way through a revolution and stopped. Battery
was dead. I have no parasitic loads in my aircraft, so when the master
is off, there is nothing else connected to the battery, and I did not
accidentally leave the master switch on. Pulled the battery, put it on
the charger and let it fully charge (verified with a voltmeter). Left
it on the bench unconnected for a couple of days, and the voltage had
dropped to 10.86 volts.
I am assuming that the battery arrived defective, and I've double
checked the voltage output on the charger I used. This is only one data
point, but I will likely go with the PC680 when I get around to ordering
another battery.
On the positive side the company gave me a full refund on the battery,
so the overall "cost" was my time in trying the experiment.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual.
http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-
13.pdf
There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal
with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I
have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system
(both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a
single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode
rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery
bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power
source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1-
10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps
(one each).
The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the
performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws
very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some
point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage
warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the
remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I
feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries
from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved.
The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that
are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary
battery=92s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other
battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.
The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that
will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual
component, complete bus, or even power source failure.
Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in
12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.
Thanks again for the help!
Justin
On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all
the time . . .
>
> Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
> while the other three do . . . what happens?
>
> Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
> power interruption, what happens?
>
> Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
> engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
> what happens?
>
> The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
> systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
> is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
> every component of the system and asks:
>
> How can this part fail?
> If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
> If not immediately noticed or annunciated by
> warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
> If it does fail, how is probable outcome of
> the flight affected?
> If it is necessary for comfortable continuation
> of flight, what are my alternatives?
>
> Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
> of system reliability
>
> Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break"
>
> The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no
immediate hazard is created."
>
> The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for
> comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B
alternatives."
>
> The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or
> capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it
> or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near
> got you killed."
>
> Before you march off to craft a never fails power
> source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
> WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
> comfortably tolerant of such failures.
>
> Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
> that supports engine operations to be powered at all
> times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
> sure that you want to install it on your airplane?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
Justin,=0A=0A...=C2- I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds
=0Aboth coils. =C2-I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from th
e =0Aengine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-poi
nt of failure issue with a single power source...=0A=0AWithout looking a sc
hematic it is difficult to get a clear picture of what you are describing b
ut a single breaker for both coils?=C2- Is that not the definition of a s
ingle point of failure?=0A=0A=0A=0A...=C2- I feel that with a dual batter
y system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight,
a higher level of safety is achieved. =0A=0AAgree.=0A=0A=0A...=C2-=0AThe
pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items =0Athat are
drawing a load from that battery bus.=C2- ....=0A=0AThe drawing that I p
osted yesterday does the isolation you are talking about but it does so aut
omatically without any interruption of current flow and requires no pilot i
nteraction.=0A=0A=0A=0AThe challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundan
t 12V system that will =0Aallow for safe and reliable operation regardless
of individual =0Acomponent, complete bus, or even power source failure.=0A
=0AThis wheel has been invented many times over.=C2- Between Bob N's Z dr
awing(s) and the one I posted, you should be able accomplish your goals.=0A
=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:37 PM, Justin Jones <jm
jones2000@mindspring.com> wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0AHere is the link to the downlo
adable instruction manual.=C2-http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_I
gnition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf=0A=0AThere is a Dual ECU addendum at
the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECU
s. =C2-Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have
learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 am
ps. =C2-I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils.
=C2-I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine batter
y bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issu
e with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. =C2-2- 5A b
reakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers
for the fuel pumps (one each).=C2-=0A=0AThe reason for installing the el
ectrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibilit
y of using MOGAS. =C2-The system draws very little current, and WHEN the
alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (l
ow voltage and low amperage warnings). =C2-At this point the pilot must s
hed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. =C2-The EFII system
will run as low as 6 volts. =C2-I feel that with a dual battery system a
nd a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher l
evel of safety is achieved. =C2-The pilot would simply isolate the batter
ies and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus.
=C2-When and if the primary battery=99s voltage gets too low, the p
ilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.=0A
=0AThe challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that wi
ll allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component
, complete bus, or even power source failure.=0A=0AAny thoughts and tips ar
e much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no me
ans an engineer.=0A=0AThanks again for the help!=0A=0AJustin=0A=0A=0A=0AOn
Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr
ic.com> wrote:=0A=0AThe system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils a
re powered all the=0Atime . . .=0A>=0A>=C2- Okay, suppose one of these fo
ur items doesn't get power=0A>=C2- while the other three do . . . what ha
ppens?=0A>=0A>=C2- Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
=0A>=C2- power interruption, what happens?=0A>=0A>=C2- Suppose there's
complete interruption of power to all=0A>=C2- engine support which is 'fi
xed' in a few seconds,=0A>=C2- what happens?=0A>=0A>=C2- The legacy des
ign philosophy we've applied to all=0A>=C2- systems intended for use in u
nforgiving environments=0A>=C2- is the failure mode effects analysis. FME
A looks at=0A>=C2- every component of the system and asks:=0A>=0A>=0A>How
can this part fail?=0A>=0A>If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
=0A>=0A>If not immediately noticed or annunciated by =0A>warning system, is
it pre-flight detectable?=0A>=0A>If it does fail, how is probable outcome
of =0A>the flight affected?=0A>=0A>If it is necessary for comfortable conti
nuation =0A>of flight, what are my alternatives?=0A>=0A> =C2- Here's my p
ersonal notions that go to the topic=0A>=C2- of system reliability=0A>=0A
>=0A>Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" =0A
>=C2- =0A>The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when=0Athings br
eak, no immediate hazard is created." =0A>=C2- =0A>The third: "Failure to
lerant design dictates that items=0Aneeded for =0A>comfortable termination
of flight are backed up with Plan-B=0Aalternatives." =0A>=C2- =0A>The for
th: "Upgrading the quality, reliability,=0Alongevity, or =0A>capability of
a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it =0A>or want some new o
perating feature, not because it damned near =0A>got you killed."=0A>=0A>
=C2- Before you march off to craft a never fails power=0A>=C2- source(s
) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there=0A>=C2- WILL be failures . . . a
nd craft a system that is=0A>=C2- comfortably tolerant of such failures.
=0A>=0A>=C2- Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything=0A
>=C2- that supports engine operations to be powered at all=0A>=C2- time
s . . . if this is strictly true, then are you=0A>=C2- sure that you want
to install it on your airplane?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- Bob . . . =0A>hr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com
/">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribut
=======
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
>Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual.
><http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf>http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf
This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
manual for the fuel injection?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
Also see the following manual.
http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf
On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
>> The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all
the time . . .
>
> Is there a down-loadable installation manual
> on this system?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf
On Aug 17, 2014 10:48 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
>
> Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual.
> http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf
>
>
> This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
> manual for the fuel injection?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Function |
sorry=85 try this one
http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf
On Aug 17, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
>> Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual.
http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-
13.pdf
>
> This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
> manual for the fuel injection?
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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