---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/17/14: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:19 AM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Justin Jones) 2. 09:56 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Sacha) 3. 12:43 PM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 01:03 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 01:08 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 03:45 PM - Re: RG / AGM Batteries (Dj Merrill) 7. 08:26 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) 8. 09:08 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Jeff Luckey) 9. 10:41 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 10:51 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) 11. 10:54 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Ryan Brown) 12. 11:04 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG / AGM Batteries From: Justin Jones Thanks for the info! On Aug 16, 2014, at 20:04, Charlie England wrote: > > On 8/16/2014 8:25 PM, Justin Jones wrote: >> >> Has anyone considered using or used any of the AGM automotive batteries? They seem to be a bit larger, but are they the safe to use in aircraft? Duracell, Everstart, Rayovac, and other brands are inexpensive and readily available. Thoughts on these RG batteries? > I'd bet that the percentage of homebuilts built in the last decade use RG batteries is approaching 100. This: > https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=odyssey+pc680 > is the 'gold standard', but a lot of us use much less expensive ones like: > http://www.apexbattery.com/golden-top-battery-cb2012sla-battery-sealed-lead-acid-batteries-golden-top-battery.html > > The ones like the Apex I linked, that are made for UPS's & electric wheel chairs, don't work quite as well as starting batteries as the Odyssey, but by going to the 20AH, it has worked great for me for several years. > > There are many other choices; just google RG or AGM battery. > > Hope that helps, > > Charlie > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:24 AM PST US From: Sacha Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function Worked for me both times. Do not archive > On 17 Aug 2014, at 08:04, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > I was unable to view the attachment on the prior posting - perhaps the PDF got corrupted in the upload. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG / AGM Batteries At 08:25 PM 8/16/2014, you wrote: Has anyone considered using or used any of the AGM automotive batteries? They seem to be a bit larger, but are they the safe to use in aircraft? Duracell, Everstart, Rayovac, and other brands are inexpensive and readily available. Thoughts on these RG batteries? The term 'aircraft battery' has never been very relevant except to denote a product with features that are friendly to aviation. Like spill resistant vent-caps and closed manifolds with drain tubes. But to call this uniquely 'aircraft' implies no other application (like atv's, wave runners, snow- mobiles, motorcycles, etc, would not benefit from the same features. The valve regulated sealed lead-acid battery not only eliminates the need for 'spill proofing' and/or plumbing that conducts spills overboard, it also offers superior performance over its flooded or gelled cousins. The only risks associated with selection of any VRSLA product are grounded in cranking performance (ability to deliver substantial short term loads in to fat wires), capacity (keeping necessary fires lit for predictable endurance), quality of the chemistry (how many charge-discharge cycles before it degrades to 80% of capacity) and behaviors under severe stress (overcharge, high-current discharge, etc). This is generally true of any sealed technology including but not limited to lead-acid, Ni-Mh, lithium, etc. etc. Be an informed shopper armed with the notion that the term 'aircraft' on the label may well be nothing more useful than an justification for a higher asking price . . . assuming of course that you're not required to have a label that speaks to TSO. There is no database that speaks to the $value$ of any particular product over another when compared under the same operating conditions. If it's a low-cost battery, then it's a low-cost experiment. If you watch over the experiment with some notions of meeting your established performance goals, then risks to system reliability are quite low as well. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power while the other three do . . . what happens? Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary power interruption, what happens? Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds, what happens? The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all systems intended for use in unforgiving environments is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at every component of the system and asks: How can this part fail? If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable? If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected? If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives? Here's my personal notions that go to the topic of system reliability Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed." Before you march off to craft a never fails power source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is comfortably tolerant of such failures. Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything that supports engine operations to be powered at all times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you sure that you want to install it on your airplane? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote: >The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered >all the time . . . Is there a down-loadable installation manual on this system? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RG / AGM Batteries From: Dj Merrill On 8/17/2014 3:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > If it's a low-cost battery, then it's a low-cost > experiment. If you watch over the experiment with > some notions of meeting your established > performance goals, then risks to system reliability > are quite low as well. Listers may recall that I tried one of the UB12220 batteries about a month ago: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G8FY38/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I received the battery, put it on the Schumacher charger to ensure it was fully charged (verified with a voltmeter when done), and installed in the aircraft (O-320). Cranked over well on the first try and seemed to turn the engine just as well as the "aircraft" battery that I had removed. However, two days later I took the airplane out again, and the blade turned about 1/3 of the way through a revolution and stopped. Battery was dead. I have no parasitic loads in my aircraft, so when the master is off, there is nothing else connected to the battery, and I did not accidentally leave the master switch on. Pulled the battery, put it on the charger and let it fully charge (verified with a voltmeter). Left it on the bench unconnected for a couple of days, and the voltage had dropped to 10.86 volts. I am assuming that the battery arrived defective, and I've double checked the voltage output on the charger I used. This is only one data point, but I will likely go with the PC680 when I get around to ordering another battery. On the positive side the company gave me a full refund on the battery, so the overall "cost" was my time in trying the experiment. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:29 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9- 13.pdf There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each). The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery=92s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE. The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure. Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer. Thanks again for the help! Justin On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . > > Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power > while the other three do . . . what happens? > > Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary > power interruption, what happens? > > Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all > engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds, > what happens? > > The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all > systems intended for use in unforgiving environments > is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at > every component of the system and asks: > > How can this part fail? > If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? > If not immediately noticed or annunciated by > warning system, is it pre-flight detectable? > If it does fail, how is probable outcome of > the flight affected? > If it is necessary for comfortable continuation > of flight, what are my alternatives? > > Here's my personal notions that go to the topic > of system reliability > > Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" > > The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." > > The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for > comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." > > The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or > capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it > or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near > got you killed." > > Before you march off to craft a never fails power > source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there > WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is > comfortably tolerant of such failures. > > Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything > that supports engine operations to be powered at all > times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you > sure that you want to install it on your airplane? > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:23 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function Justin,=0A=0A...=C2- I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds =0Aboth coils. =C2-I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from th e =0Aengine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-poi nt of failure issue with a single power source...=0A=0AWithout looking a sc hematic it is difficult to get a clear picture of what you are describing b ut a single breaker for both coils?=C2- Is that not the definition of a s ingle point of failure?=0A=0A=0A=0A...=C2- I feel that with a dual batter y system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. =0A=0AAgree.=0A=0A=0A...=C2-=0AThe pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items =0Athat are drawing a load from that battery bus.=C2- ....=0A=0AThe drawing that I p osted yesterday does the isolation you are talking about but it does so aut omatically without any interruption of current flow and requires no pilot i nteraction.=0A=0A=0A=0AThe challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundan t 12V system that will =0Aallow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual =0Acomponent, complete bus, or even power source failure.=0A =0AThis wheel has been invented many times over.=C2- Between Bob N's Z dr awing(s) and the one I posted, you should be able accomplish your goals.=0A =0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:37 PM, Justin Jones wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0AHere is the link to the downlo adable instruction manual.=C2-http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_I gnition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf=0A=0AThere is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECU s. =C2-Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 am ps. =C2-I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. =C2-I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine batter y bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issu e with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. =C2-2- 5A b reakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).=C2-=0A=0AThe reason for installing the el ectrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibilit y of using MOGAS. =C2-The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (l ow voltage and low amperage warnings). =C2-At this point the pilot must s hed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. =C2-The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. =C2-I feel that with a dual battery system a nd a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher l evel of safety is achieved. =C2-The pilot would simply isolate the batter ies and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. =C2-When and if the primary battery=99s voltage gets too low, the p ilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.=0A =0AThe challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that wi ll allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component , complete bus, or even power source failure.=0A=0AAny thoughts and tips ar e much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no me ans an engineer.=0A=0AThanks again for the help!=0A=0AJustin=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:=0A=0AThe system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils a re powered all the=0Atime . . .=0A>=0A>=C2- Okay, suppose one of these fo ur items doesn't get power=0A>=C2- while the other three do . . . what ha ppens?=0A>=0A>=C2- Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary =0A>=C2- power interruption, what happens?=0A>=0A>=C2- Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all=0A>=C2- engine support which is 'fi xed' in a few seconds,=0A>=C2- what happens?=0A>=0A>=C2- The legacy des ign philosophy we've applied to all=0A>=C2- systems intended for use in u nforgiving environments=0A>=C2- is the failure mode effects analysis. FME A looks at=0A>=C2- every component of the system and asks:=0A>=0A>=0A>How can this part fail?=0A>=0A>If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? =0A>=0A>If not immediately noticed or annunciated by =0A>warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?=0A>=0A>If it does fail, how is probable outcome of =0A>the flight affected?=0A>=0A>If it is necessary for comfortable conti nuation =0A>of flight, what are my alternatives?=0A>=0A> =C2- Here's my p ersonal notions that go to the topic=0A>=C2- of system reliability=0A>=0A >=0A>Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" =0A >=C2- =0A>The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when=0Athings br eak, no immediate hazard is created." =0A>=C2- =0A>The third: "Failure to lerant design dictates that items=0Aneeded for =0A>comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B=0Aalternatives." =0A>=C2- =0A>The for th: "Upgrading the quality, reliability,=0Alongevity, or =0A>capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it =0A>or want some new o perating feature, not because it damned near =0A>got you killed."=0A>=0A> =C2- Before you march off to craft a never fails power=0A>=C2- source(s ) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there=0A>=C2- WILL be failures . . . a nd craft a system that is=0A>=C2- comfortably tolerant of such failures. =0A>=0A>=C2- Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything=0A >=C2- that supports engine operations to be powered at all=0A>=C2- time s . . . if this is strictly true, then are you=0A>=C2- sure that you want to install it on your airplane?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- Bob . . . =0A>hr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com /">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribut ======= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote: >Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. >http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another manual for the fuel injection? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:17 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function Also see the following manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote: >> The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . > > Is there a down-loadable installation manual > on this system? > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Ryan Brown http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf On Aug 17, 2014 10:48 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote: > > Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. > http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf > > > This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another > manual for the fuel injection? > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:12 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function sorry=85 try this one http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf On Aug 17, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote: >> Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9- 13.pdf > > This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another > manual for the fuel injection? > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.