---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/20/14: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:22 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:36 AM - Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs (user9253) 3. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 01:20 PM - Re: PM alternator capacitors . . . (j. davis) 5. 01:27 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) 6. 03:32 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Charlie England) 7. 03:49 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Ken Ryan) 8. 05:20 PM - Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs (user9253) 9. 05:52 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:57 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:23 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Andy) 13. 08:31 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:18 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Andy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote: > > > >I have just the installation instructions at this time. Not sure if >I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it. Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two? If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we don't have energy demands data either. How much electrical hardware have you installed already? What holes have you drilled to mount switches? Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and much lower cost of ownership. After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs From: "user9253" > Do I presume correctly that he has gone through the set up screen for managing the output of this pin? Yes, but even if set up incorrectly, I would not expect differing behavior depending on power source to the D-180. Bob, I gather from your response that it is highly unlikely that a faulty 22,000 microfarad capacitor is causing the flickering LEDs. You also said that it is unlikely that the difficulty is a function of any normal behaviors designed into the D-180. The question that only Dynon can answer is, is there a D-180 failure mode that can cause the dimmer output to flicker? The problem with me trying to help someone halfway across the country is that I can not actually see the symptoms. And any tests that I suggest might not be fully understood or the results correctly interpreted. It can be very frustrating for me and for an aircraft owner to not be able to solve their electrical problem. But when I am able to walk someone through troubleshooting and they solve the problem, it is very rewarding to me. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428875#428875 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs At 09:34 AM 8/20/2014, you wrote: > > > > Do I presume correctly that he has gone through the set up screen > for managing the output of this pin? > >Yes, but even if set up incorrectly, I would not expect differing >behavior depending on power source to the D-180. wasn't sure if there was a mode where the light was expected to flash . . . as opposed to 'flicker' . . . > Bob, I gather from your response that it is highly unlikely that > a faulty 22,000 microfarad capacitor is causing the flickering > LEDs. You also said that it is unlikely that the difficulty is a > function of any normal behaviors designed into the D-180. The > question that only Dynon can answer is, is there a D-180 failure > mode that can cause the dimmer output to flicker? agreed. see if the problem goes away with the alternator off line . . . > The problem with me trying to help someone halfway across the > country is that I can not actually see the symptoms. And any tests > that I suggest might not be fully understood or the results > correctly interpreted. > It can be very frustrating for me and for an aircraft owner to > not be able to solve their electrical problem. But when I am able > to walk someone through troubleshooting and they solve the problem, > it is very rewarding to me. understand . . . been working in similar venues for 25 years. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM alternator capacitors . . . From: "j. davis" Interesting. I see you say "*Publication of this data is not intended to say that there is no value for including a capacitor . *So, in laymen's terms, does this mean that you will amend your wiring diagrams that include a 22,000 uF capicitor, such as Z20L? Can/should we remove installed caps from our systems? Does/can that large cap have *adverse* effects? Thanks, Bob, as always. On 19 August 2014 10:53, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > * The legacy 22,000 uF capacitor installation on PM alternators is of > limited utility for smoothing the output from PM alternator > rectifier/regulators. Peek at the bus with a 'scope and do a > capacitor-connected/disconnected comparison for confirmation. A casual > observation with a 'scope will not produce much confidence that the > capacitor is doing anything useful in the time domain. See: > http://tinyurl.com/n5yd3vw > ======================== I was asked about the significance of the data > cited above . . . and I beg your indulgence . . . it's not immediately > obvious. I've re-posted the data package and encircled the pertinent data > points: RMS and peak-to-peak voltage numbers cited at the edge of the > 'scope screen. These Pk-Pk values speak to the greatest voltage excursions > detected in the displayed plot . . . you can have some pretty high numbers > here if the wave form shows even the shortest of 'spikes' . . . pk-to-pk > numbers are not terribly significant in these plots. RMS speaks to the > ENERGY in the noise. Note that for ALL conditions measured, there are no > gross variations in measured noise configurations of capacitor size and > whether or not a battery is on line. All measured values were well under > those we are told to expect on the legacy 704/160 realm of DC power > systems. Publication of this data is not intended to say that there is no > value for including a capacitor . . . but the published narratives don't > speak to any rationale other than noise mitigation. It may be that some > clever designer perceived an improvement in performance for something other > than noise. If so, I'm unaware of it. Bob . . . * > > * > > > * > > -- Regards, J. ----------------------------- J. Davis, email: jwd3ca at gmail dot com *NIX consulting, Medical Imaging research programming - Zenith STOL CH750 C-FJNJ: Jab 3300, Whilrwind GA prop, AeroCarb - Sonex #325 (ex)C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder - see these and more at http://cleco.ca ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Justin Jones It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad? I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here. Thanks for the help! Justin On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote: >> >> >> I have just the installation instructions at this time. Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it. > > Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical > system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this > thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally > suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two? > If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning > on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration > data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we > don't have energy demands data either. > > How much electrical hardware have you installed already? > What holes have you drilled to mount switches? > > Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this > system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator > installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and > much lower cost of ownership. > > After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand > why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant > solution. > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Charlie England I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but... Is Bob asking for actual schematics of the internals, or just complete wiring diagrams? It's not too surprising that the mfgr is unwilling to share the complete schematics of the devices; I doubt that you'd get them from Garmin, King, etc, either. Charlie On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones wrote: > jmjones2000@mindspring.com> > > It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I > am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of > the engine and one on the vacuum pad? > > I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg > light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. > > I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a > bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary > info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I > still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. > > It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the > way to go here. > > > Thanks for the help! > > Justin > > > On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > > At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote: > jmjones2000@mindspring.com> > >> > >> > >> I have just the installation instructions at this time. Not sure if I > have ever seen a wiring diagram for it. > > > > Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical > > system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this > > thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally > > suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two? > > If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning > > on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration > > data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we > > don't have energy demands data either. > > > > How much electrical hardware have you installed already? > > What holes have you drilled to mount switches? > > > > Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this > > system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator > > installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and > > much lower cost of ownership. > > > > After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand > > why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant > > solution. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:58 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function I also doubt that Garmin, King, etc. would provide a complete airplane wiring diagram. On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Charlie England wrote: > I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but... > Is Bob asking for actual schematics of the internals, or just complete > wiring diagrams? It's not too surprising that the mfgr is unwilling to > share the complete schematics of the devices; I doubt that you'd get them > from Garmin, King, etc, either. > > Charlie > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones > wrote: > >> jmjones2000@mindspring.com> >> >> It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I >> am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of >> the engine and one on the vacuum pad? >> >> I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for >> ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. >> >> I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a >> bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary >> info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I >> still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. >> >> It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the >> way to go here. >> >> >> Thanks for the help! >> >> Justin >> >> >> On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >> > >> > At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote: >> jmjones2000@mindspring.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have just the installation instructions at this time. Not sure if I >> have ever seen a wiring diagram for it. >> > >> > Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical >> > system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this >> > thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally >> > suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two? >> > If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning >> > on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration >> > data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we >> > don't have energy demands data either. >> > >> > How much electrical hardware have you installed already? >> > What holes have you drilled to mount switches? >> > >> > Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this >> > system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator >> > installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and >> > much lower cost of ownership. >> > >> > After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand >> > why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant >> > solution. >> > >> > >> > Bob . . . >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs From: "user9253" > wasn't sure if there was a mode where the light was > expected to flash . . . as opposed to 'flicker' . . . Yes, when an input to the D-180 is out of limits, the D-180 flashes an on-screen warning and also flashes the external LEDs connected to the PWM dimmer pin. However, I asked the RV-12 owner if the LEDs were flashing an alarm or just flickering. He said flickering. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428919#428919 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 03:25 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: > > >It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator >but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on >the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad? That's the usual configuration. Most airplane engine accessory cases are fitted with AND20000 vacuum pump pads . . . that get covered when a vacuum system is not installed. This is the easiest place to install a second alternator. At the moment, the SD-8 (3 pound, 8A) or SD-20 (6-pound, 20A) are the options. We would LIKE to use the SD-8 if it makes sense. >I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches >for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. >I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He >seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is >proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps >total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. Okay, what we need from him is system integration data. There are x-number of power input leads to the system. How many must be powered up at any one time for the engine to run and how much current is drawn by each input? >It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be >the way to go here. Absolutely . . . in fact, it's QUITE practical to consider one battery and one alternator . . . ALL of those decisions are predicated on knowing minimum ENERGY required of the components of the electrically dependent engine combined with ENERGY needed to operated minimal panel equipment for what ever YOU decide is your battery-only endurance target. This is why I've hammered on the notion that doing a load analysis for the proposed system is the #1 task in choosing an architecture and sizing components. There's a good reason why we do this in certified airplanes . . . a reason that is no less valid in an experimental airplane. Sounds like this is a capable system that exploits a lot of lessons learned from the automotive experience with ECFI . . . but no matter how GOOD his equipment is, he has a DUTY to tell the customer everything needed to craft the elegant electrical system and write the logical pilot's operating instructions for both NORMAL and ABNORMAL operations. Don't cut any more holes for switches until we have GOOD data for deciding what those switches are and from whence they get power. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 05:48 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: >I also doubt that Garmin, King, etc. would >provide a complete airplane wiring diagram. No, they don't . . . in fact, they should NOT. Garmin tried it once and it got them a lot of grief . . . But all the big guys deliver hardware to the OEM air-framers the data we're asking for from EFII is no more than Garmin or King would have to offer before they even walked in the door. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon D-180 & flickering LEDs At 07:18 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: > > > > wasn't sure if there was a mode where the light was > > expected to flash . . . as opposed to 'flicker' . . . > >Yes, when an input to the D-180 is out of limits, the D-180 flashes >an on-screen warning and also flashes the external LEDs connected to >the PWM dimmer pin. However, I asked the RV-12 owner if the LEDs >were flashing an alarm or just flickering. He said flickering. Okay, make sure it's not the fixture or power supplied to the fixture. Do the experiment with just a light bulb and 12v battery to see that the D-180 performs as advertised with those to variables controlled. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Andy I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7. I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus. I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection, I'm a novice and didn't even come close. I did try to justify a small backup battery system, than a dual battery system but in the end the end Z13/8 gave way more redundancy, utility, checks and balances, and bang for the buck than the others. Think through every failure scenario of the various electrical systems, in addition think through the preflight checks (how do you know that second battery will power your essential electronics for 30 minutes when you need it?) of the backup systems and maintenance. The choice will be easy. I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 20, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones wrote: > > > It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad? > > I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. > > I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. > > It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here. > > > Thanks for the help! > > Justin > > >> On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: >> >> >> At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have just the installation instructions at this time. Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it. >> >> Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical >> system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this >> thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally >> suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two? >> If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning >> on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration >> data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we >> don't have energy demands data either. >> >> How much electrical hardware have you installed already? >> What holes have you drilled to mount switches? >> >> Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this >> system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator >> installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and >> much lower cost of ownership. >> >> After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand >> why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant >> solution. >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: > >I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been >great so far!) on my RV7. Were you offered any more documentation than the down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been praying over? > I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically > dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems > the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply > hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus. Yup . . . that works. I'd probably put 1/2 the equipment on the battery bus and the other half on the main bus. During alternator-out operations, you load-shed half of the engine support . . .which is readily available by simply turning the master switch back on. The only time this would be necessary is if you suffered DUAL failures of pretty good hardware in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly unlikely. >I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than >the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . . Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted to set the older iterations aside. As new figures are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11. But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR architectures to the airplane/mission. >I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the >electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8. You guys (or at least your predecessors) on the List played major roles in the development of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous order in the free market exchange of value." Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions, I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability that equals or exceeds that offered to many pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction of the cost and complexity. What we've accomplished here is something for which the OBAM aviation community can be proud. Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's endorsement is a validation of that idea. Thank you sir! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Andy > Were you offered any more documentation than the > down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been > praying over? Robert's customer service concerning the ignition system has been more than excellent, I believe the schematics you guys are after are those concerning his "bus manager." I don't know much about it other than what the website states, I found Bob's Z13/8 fit my aircraft better. Hardly load shedding with a full EFIS system/GPS/mapping/engine moniter and electronic ignition system burning way less than 8 amps from the SD8 as long as there is gas in the tanks....If it comes to that... > Thank you sir! > > > Bob . . . No Sir, THANK YOU! Andy Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 20, 2014, at 10:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: >> >> I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7. > > Were you offered any more documentation than the > down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been > praying over? > > >> I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus. > > Yup . . . that works. > > Were you offered any more documentation than the > down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been > praying over? failures of pretty good hardware > in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly > unlikely. > >> I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . . > > Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way > into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched > up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere > along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of > a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted > to set the older iterations aside. As new figures > are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11. > > But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the > TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in > the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR > architectures to the airplane/mission. > >> I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8. > > You guys (or at least your predecessors) on > the List played major roles in the development > of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous > order in the free market exchange of value." > Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions, > I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability > that equals or exceeds that offered to many > pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction > of the cost and complexity. > > What we've accomplished here is something for > which the OBAM aviation community can be proud. > Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by > the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but > by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's > endorsement is a validation of that idea. > Thank you sir! > > > Bob . . . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.