---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/21/14: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:14 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Ed meyer) 2. 09:03 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:11 AM - KX165 transmit light stuck (Radioflyer) 4. 09:26 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: KX165 transmit light stuck (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 11:30 AM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) 7. 01:14 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 01:53 PM - Re: Z-19 Function (Justin Jones) 9. 03:27 PM - Re: KX165 transmit light stuck (Radioflyer) 10. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: KX165 transmit light stuck (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:55 AM PST US From: "Ed meyer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function I have been following this discussion with great interest since I am strongly considering using the EFII system on my project. I had also pretty much zeroed in on the Z13/8 electrical system. The one thing that the EFII Bus Manager has that I think would be desirable is the automatic fuel pump switching if the primary pump fails. I imagine that function would not be too difficult to add to Z13/8 with some sort of a pressure switch but I am not smart enough to know what switch and the most =98elegant=99 way to wire it. Ed ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 11:17 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: > >Hardly load shedding with a full EFIS system/GPS/mapping/engine >moniter and electronic ignition system burning way less than 8 amps >from the SD8 as long as there is gas in the tanks....If it comes to that... Very good. 20 years ago the idea of running a full-up panel, electronic ignition and fuel injection on a 110 watt energy budget would probably have produced snickers from the peanut gallery . . . but guess what? You're there. Z-13/8 offers a 3-layered architecture that will (1) run everything plus the kitchen sink if the main alternator is up, (2) run everything you'd like to have on the SD-8 if the big guy takes a vacation and with proper battery sizing and maintenance (3) run everything NECESSARY to terminate the flight comfortably battery only . . . not under emergency conditions that dictate the lights will go out in 30 minutes. This happy situation did not arise from the directed efforts of any one activity . . . in fact, the musings and experiments here on the List contributed little to the advancement of our art. The List is an aggregator of ideas . . . a kind of kitchen where chefs sifting through an ever changing supermarket of ingredients searching out the most pleasing recipe for success. Those ingredients come from EVERYWHERE . . . The earliest efforts of Lightspeed and Unison ignition products might today seem amusing to individuals who do not know their history their stories . . . products that were birthed by individuals with an idea and willingness to take a risk . . . one bombed . . . the other has matured greatly. Complexity has gone down, robustness is up, energy is down, cost of ownership is down, weight is down. Along comes EFII . . . with perhaps the next generation of product evolution with still better numbers particularly in the arena of ENERGY. The rate of evolution for good recipes is retarded first by the distance over which the ingredients are dispersed and then by suppression of opportunity for experimentation in the development of new recipes. Check out the biography of a pencil by Leonard Read http://tinyurl.com/me3q3hj This fun little story speaks to the MILLIONS of individuals, few of whom know each other, who contribute to the crafting of a simple pencil. It's this same spontaneous organization of millions of experimenters and suppliers offering their own ingredients to our 'kitchens' where we strive to produce the best-we-know-how-to-do in airplanes. Bob . . . The universe runs on PHYSICS. All of mankind's endeavors in any venue distills to but two studies: properties of materials and management of energy. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX165 transmit light stuck From: "Radioflyer" I've been troubleshooting my intercom system and radio operation and eventually found one of the mic jacks had tangs that were bent and touching. After unbending the tangs, the intercom system worked, but the radio seems to be stuck on transmit. I pulled the radio out of the plane, isolated from all associated devices, powered it up and the "T" light is constantly on. So, it's a radio problem. The radio is actually putting out a weak signal, but no voice. However, if I activate the PTT switch, it will transmit clearly. Nevertheless, can't receive because the T stays on. Could the shorted mic input have caused this fault? Can anyone give some advise on how to remedy, besides going straight to the avionics shop? --Jose Ps-I've pulled the manuals Bob N. No clues, yet. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429003#429003 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 10:13 AM 8/21/2014, you wrote: I have been following this discussion with great interest since I am strongly considering using the EFII system on my project. I had also pretty much zeroed in on the Z13/8 electrical system. The one thing that the EFII Bus Manager has that I think would be desirable is the automatic fuel pump switching if the primary pump fails. I imagine that function would not be too difficult to add to Z13/8 with some sort of a pressure switch but I am not smart enough to know what switch and the most =98elegant=99 way to wire it. Ed Why automatic? Describe the flight configuration under which such a system would benefit you as a pilot. Just about every airplane I've flown has two fuel pumps. For the most part, BOTH are ON for take-off and approach to landing. Above some altitude that offers plenty of time for recognition and response to failure of the main pump, the secondary pump is turned OFF and held in reserve. 99.9% of all failures of an engine to produce power is caused by fuel starvation. The engine generally doesn't stop cold. From the first time you sense a change in engine operation until the time that the secondary pump switch can be thrown is a few seconds at most. There have been dozens of designs offered for automatic switching of backup hardware in aviation over the years. Some worked pretty good. The vast majority would not be asked to do their task even once over the lifetime of the airplane. Yet all such systems adds to weight, cost and complexity . . . with reliability ramifications of their own. My cursory examination of the EFII installation suggest that two switches for two pumps. One from the battery bus, the other from the main bus. This offers reliability with simplicity that will not get 'better' with any form of automation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KX165 transmit light stuck At 11:10 AM 8/21/2014, you wrote: I've been troubleshooting my intercom system and radio operation and eventually found one of the mic jacks had tangs that were bent and touching. After unbending the tangs, the intercom system worked, but the radio seems to be stuck on transmit. I pulled the radio out of the plane, isolated from all associated devices, powered it up and the "T" light is constantly on. So, it's a radio problem. The radio is actually putting out a weak signal, but no voice. However, if I activate the PTT switch, it will transmit clearly. Nevertheless, can't receive because the T stays on. Could the shorted mic input have caused this fault? Can anyone give some advise on how to remedy, besides going straight to the avionics shop? --Jose Ps-I've pulled the manuals Bob N. No clues, yet. Doesn't sound good. In the service manual, Figure 6-8 sheet 5 of 11 we find this excerpt of the PTT input circuit . . . Emacs! It seems likely that your difficulty lies in or somewhere close to either side of this bit of circuitry. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Justin Jones Bob, I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the 12v system. Here is what he said. The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea. The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents occur for only a few milliseconds. The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running). Does this help? Thank you! Justin On Aug 20, 2014, at 19:29, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote: >> >> I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7. > > Were you offered any more documentation than the > down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been > praying over? > > >> I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus. > > Yup . . . that works. > > I'd probably put 1/2 the equipment on the > battery bus and the other half on the main bus. > During alternator-out operations, you load-shed > half of the engine support . . .which is readily > available by simply turning the master switch back > on. The only time this would be necessary is if > you suffered DUAL failures of pretty good hardware > in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly > unlikely. > >> I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . . > > Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way > into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched > up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere > along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of > a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted > to set the older iterations aside. As new figures > are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11. > > But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the > TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in > the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR > architectures to the airplane/mission. > >> I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8. > > You guys (or at least your predecessors) on > the List played major roles in the development > of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous > order in the free market exchange of value." > Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions, > I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability > that equals or exceeds that offered to many > pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction > of the cost and complexity. > > What we've accomplished here is something for > which the OBAM aviation community can be proud. > Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by > the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but > by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's > endorsement is a validation of that idea. > Thank you sir! > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function At 01:28 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the >12v system. Here is what he said. > >The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea. >The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have >much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents >occur for only a few milliseconds. >The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running). > >Does this help? Very close. Is he sending you a ship's wiring diagram for a dual ECU system? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Function From: Justin Jones That's all he sent me. The pictures in the installation diagram list all of the connections made to the efii system and these numbers show the amount of current the system draws. He does suggest using his "bus manager" which has a diagram on how to hook it up to a ship's system. On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:13, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 01:28 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote: >> >> Bob, >> >> I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the 12v system. Here is what he said. >> >> The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea. >> The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents occur for only a few milliseconds. >> The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running). >> >> Does this help? > > Very close. Is he sending you a ship's wiring > diagram for a dual ECU system? > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: KX165 transmit light stuck From: "Radioflyer" Hmmm. I was about to look more deeply into the circuitry when frustration truly hit (the radio). Hit it with a bigger hammer, as they say. Well thinking there might be a relay somewhere in the unit, I gave it a sharp tap and the the T went away! Now, I can receive. The T does come back on only when the mic is keyed, as it should. Have to still test for actual voice transmission, but so far all looks good. Funny, though that the mic key circuit has no relays, though. --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429036#429036 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: KX165 transmit light stuck At 05:26 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote: > >Hmmm. I was about to look more deeply into the circuitry when >frustration truly hit (the radio). Hit it with a bigger hammer, as >they say. Well thinking there might be a relay somewhere in the >unit, I gave it a sharp tap and the the T went away! Now, I can >receive. The T does come back on only when the mic is keyed, as it >should. Have to still test for actual voice transmission, but so far >all looks good. Funny, though that the mic key circuit has no relays, though. >--Jose Yup, that went all solid state a few years back. It's a whole new ball game . . . 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