Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:16 AM - Engine restart while airborne . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 12:21 PM - My Sandia Transponder interferes with my Com Radio. (Todd Bristol)
3. 12:45 PM - Re: Battery Cable Fitting (Bill Settle)
4. 03:17 PM - Re: Battery Cable Fitting (Jeff Luckey)
5. 05:37 PM - Re: Engine restart while airborne . . . (Richard Girard)
6. 07:51 PM - Sandia Transponder interferes with Com Radio. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:02 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
8. 11:05 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
9. 11:19 PM - Re: Re: RV10-List: Shunt - Location (Jeff Luckey)
Message 1
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Subject: | Engine restart while airborne . . . |
At 10:15 AM 9/1/2014, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I read your book through and I think have understood the basics. It
gave me a super know how boost, thanks. Right now I am on the
electric schema for a Zenith STOL 750 with Rotax 912 ULS 2.
One thing I do not understand: In no Z-Drawing is the Ignition Switch
/ Start Button connected to the endurance bus? In case of a failure
of the master relay or master switch it is not possible to restart
the engine in this configuration as far as I understood the different
drawings. Although it might rarely occur that at the same time in
flight you need to restart the engine and the main bus is not
available (would mean there is a kind of a big problem). But it would
surely help to have the security to be able to turn the engine; or
may the windmill effect make my need redundant?
Does the 912 engine windmill on a STOL750? I don't know
but the people who are building and flying these airplanes
SHOULD know . . . and this information is best acquired from
the factory.
So is there any reason not to connect the ignition/engine start
switch to the endurance bus?
If the main bus is down, this means the battery master
contactor is open. So being able to put power on the starter
contactor is not very useful whene there is no power for
the contactor to control.
Sorry for the question you probably already answered many times but I
could not access the FAQ Part on your page.
No problem. I'll look into that FAQ link. But in any case,
the legacy failure mode effects analysis for light aircraft
does not stack multiple failures. The vast majority of
engines stop because of fuel starvation. Your pondering
of "Plan-B" alternatives would do well to consider all the
ways that mechanical failure in the fuel delivery system
can be managed . . . the kit folks have probably done
this already but you need to understand it. In other words,
the elegant answer to your question is: "Minimize or eliminate
the reasons that your engine might quit in flight so that you
don't find yourself short on the Main Bus power as well!
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | My Sandia Transponder interferes with my Com Radio. |
I have an Icon A-22 wired (no battery) into my Titan Tornado with a Sandia STX-165.
The antennas are as far apart as I can get them at about 4'. When the transponder
is interrogated and "replys", it causes a popping in the radio that
affects both the reception and transmission. ATC can't understand my voice unless
I turn the transponder to "stby".
I tried using an external 12V battery for the Icom Radio and it worked MUCH Better.
Any Thoughts out there ????
TJ
On Monday, September 1, 2014 11:44 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 10:15 AM 9/1/2014, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I read your book through and I think have understood the basics. It gave
me a super know how boost, thanks. Right now I am on the electric schema
for a Zenith STOL 750 with Rotax 912 ULS 2.
One thing I do not understand: In no Z-Drawing is the Ignition Switch /
Start Button connected to the endurance bus? In case of a failure of the
master relay or master switch it is not possible to restart the engine in
this configuration as far as I understood the different drawings.
Although it might rarely occur that at the same time in flight you need
to restart the engine and the main bus is not available (would mean there
is a kind of a big problem). But it would surely help to have the
security to be able to turn the engine; or may the windmill effect make
my need redundant?
Does the 912 engine windmill on a STOL750? I don't know
but the people who are building and flying these airplanes
SHOULD know . . . and this information is best acquired from
the factory.
So is there any reason not to connect the ignition/engine start switch to
the endurance bus?
If the main bus is down, this means the battery master
contactor is open. So being able to put power on the starter
contactor is not very useful whene there is no power for
the contactor to control.
Sorry for the question you probably already answered many times but
I could not access the FAQ Part on your page.
No problem. I'll look into that FAQ link. But in any case,
the legacy failure mode effects analysis for light aircraft
does not stack multiple failures. The vast majority of
engines stop because of fuel starvation. Your pondering
of "Plan-B" alternatives would do well to consider all the
ways that mechanical failure in the fuel delivery system
can be managed . . . the kit folks have probably done
this already but you need to understand it. In other words,
the elegant answer to your question is: "Minimize or eliminate
the reasons that your engine might quit in flight so that you
don't find yourself short on the Main Bus power as well!
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Battery Cable Fitting |
Bob,
As always, Thanks!
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:17 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 04:03 PM 8/31/2014, you wrote:
>
>I am building an RV-8 with the battery installed in the forward
>baggage compartment. The battery contactor is mounted about 4" from
>the positive terminal. The simplest and shortest route for the
>cable would be a straight 4" length between the two. Is this
>acceptable, or should I take a somewhat indirect route to the
>contactor so that the cable has a bit of a loop in it?
Use a ~8" length of 4AWG welding cable
with sufficient wire dress to avoid putting
any stress on terminals on either end
of the jumper wire.
Use heavy-wall heat-shrink to provide
vibration support at the terminals but
let the stuff in the middle wave in the
breeze.
http://tinyurl.com/kfqjphg
The above article illustrates M22759 'fat wire'
but if it were my airplane, welding cable is
the material of first choice.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Battery Cable Fitting |
I second Bob's suggestion. Welding Cable is really great stuff. It's tough-as-nails,
very flexible, and easy to work with.
-Jeff
On Monday, September 1, 2014 12:54 PM, Bill Settle <billsettle@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Bob,
As always, Thanks!
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:17 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 04:03 PM 8/31/2014, you wrote:
>
>I am building an RV-8 with the battery installed in the forward
>baggage compartment. The battery contactor is mounted about 4" from
>the positive terminal. The simplest and shortest route for the
>cable would be a straight 4" length between the two. Is
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Engine restart while airborne . . . |
Bob, Nope, a Rotax is a geared engine and when the engine stops so does the
prop. Even the two strokes with relatively low compression compared to the
10.5 to 1 of the 912S series engines bring the prop to a stop PDQ when the
engine stops running.
Learned this the hard way when the engine on my Kolb quit on a downwind
departure. Fortunately I was able to glide back to the runway and miss the
idiot in the Baron who was taking off downwind so it ended well. Some new
Hanes and a fuel filter and I was good as new.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:15 AM 9/1/2014, you wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> I read your book through and I think have understood the basics. It gave
> me a super know how boost, thanks. Right now I am on the electric schema
> for a Zenith STOL 750 with Rotax 912 ULS 2.
>
> One thing I do not understand: In no Z-Drawing is the Ignition Switch /
> Start Button connected to the endurance bus? In case of a failure of the
> master relay or master switch it is not possible to restart the engine in
> this configuration as far as I understood the different drawings. Although
> it might rarely occur that at the same time in flight you need to restart
> the engine and the main bus is not available (would mean there is a kind of
> a big problem). But it would surely help to have the security to be able to
> turn the engine; or may the windmill effect make my need redundant?
>
> Does the 912 engine windmill on a STOL750? I don't know
> but the people who are building and flying these airplanes
> SHOULD know . . . and this information is best acquired from
> the factory.
>
> So is there any reason not to connect the ignition/engine start switch to
> the endurance bus?
>
> If the main bus is down, this means the battery master contactor is
> open. So being able to put power on the starter contactor is not very
> useful whene there is no power for the contactor to control. Sorry for
> the question you probably already answered many times but I could not
> access the FAQ Part on your page.
> No problem. I'll look into that FAQ link. But in any case, the legacy
> failure mode effects analysis for light aircraft does not stack multiple
> failures. The vast majority of engines stop because of fuel starvation.
> Your pondering of "Plan-B" alternatives would do well to consider all the ways
> that mechanical failure in the fuel delivery system can be managed . . .
> the kit folks have probably done this already but you need to understand
> it. In other words, the elegant answer to your question is: "Minimize or
> eliminate the reasons that your engine might quit in flight so that you don't
> find yourself short on the Main Bus power as well!
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 6
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Subject: | Sandia Transponder interferes with Com Radio. |
At 02:20 PM 9/1/2014, you wrote:
>I have an Icon A-22 wired (no battery) into my Titan Tornado with a
>Sandia STX-165. The antennas are as far apart as I can get them at
>about 4'. When the transponder is interrogated and "replys", it
>causes a popping in the radio that affects both the reception and
>transmission. ATC can't understand my voice unless I turn the
>transponder to "stby".
>
>I tried using an external 12V battery for the Icom Radio and it
>worked MUCH Better.
>Any Thoughts out there ????
>
>TJ
I presume the 'pop' you describe is every time the reply
light flashes - is that what YOU hear when listening
to the A-22? The same noise impressed on your transmitted
audio would not reduce your transmitted signal to unintelligible.
Have you heard the noise that ATC complains about?
You need to get a hand-held, stand off a hundred yards
and talk somebody in the cockpit of your airplane.
When you say "much better" . . . does that mean that
all is right with the universe or does the interference
simply go down such that you can be understood . . .
but the noise is still there?
It's very difficult to diagnose . . . much less recommend
remedy for 'noise' without actually hearing it. As a
radio amateur in my early electron-herding career, I learned
to identify source, propagation mode and remedy from simply
hearing the noise . . . all 'noises' have a signature and
a propagation mode . . . with unique remedies.
If the 'noise' is present in both transmit and receive,
it is unlikely that the propagation mode involves
a difficulty with antennas. The fact that things got
better when the com radio was operated on an independent
battery suggests a noise conducted on the DC power
lines. The fact that you're experiencing difficulty
in both transmit and receive also points to a problem
with DC power quality.
Which engine/alternator/rectifier-regulator
are you using? Do you have a schematic of the
power distribution system?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
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Subject: | Re: RV10-List: Shunt - Location |
My comments are in orange (hope they are legible) & a few paragraphs at the bottom.
1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).If you're going to
measure current anywhere, this is the
FIRST choice . . . I will elaborate later . . .
2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but
it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main
buss.)
This is how it was done on cars and some airplanes for decades.
There may be a good reason for that...
Useful ONLY to the individual who KNOWS about
how a battery behaves with a lot of electro-whizzies
wrapped around it. Good diagnostic tool but it requires
attention, memory (monitoring of trends) and an understanding
of battery physics.
I don't think you need a BSEE to understand how to read a battery ammeter. Besides,
if you are going to fly around in an electrically-dependent airplane, it
probably wouldn't hurt to learn a little about batteries & ammeters. As pilots
we do a lot of "trend monitoring".
You won't find an ammeter in series with any bus structure
on a biz jet . . . ammeters monitor generator loads.
Not sure the Biz Jet analogy is apt here. There are lots of differences between
a biz jet & our OBAMs. Biz jets have 2 of lots of things, engines, generators
(maybe 3 w/ APU), pilots, etc. They have more complicated feed/source switching.
The pilots go to recurrent training which includes systems training, etc.
Very little of that applies to OBAMs.
In other words, just 'cause they do it in Gulfstreams doesn't mean we should do
it in our little airplanes.
The PRIMARY electrical system monitor is active notification
of LOW VOLTS. When the light comes on, you look to see if
the alternator is putting out ANYTHING . . . MAYBE it has
popped a diode and is still putting out some energy but
at a reduced rate. You have the option of reducing load
until the light goes out.
You can do load reduction with the Battery Ammeter...
Your NUMBER ONE tool for dealing with electrical system
malfunction is active notification of low voltage. Your
response to that event should be . . . at most . . .
the repositioning of a couple of switches whereupon you
assume Plan-B for getting comfortably on the ground.
Absolutely.
I don't have any of the Z figures in front of me but I have a question.
In the most complicated Z design, how many switches does the pilot have
to flip in a worst case scenario?
If your Plan-B calls for reading displays, flipping
switches, pushing/pulling breakers, fiddling with
fuses and/or WONDERING how long the battery is going
to last . . . then you blew it before your airplane's
first flight.
Maybe... but, I didn't hear anyone suggest pushing, pulling, or fiddling, (especially
w/ fuses)... (are those checklist items?:)
For the most part, an ammeter is useful for figuring
things out AFTER you get back on the ground. Not having
one available in flight should NOT be a matter of concern.
OK
Here's what I like about Battery Ammeters:
1. Using a zero-center ammeter provides info on the health of the battery charging
system when everything is
working properly. By learning to watch the charge taper after start-up you can
glean info about the health of your battery & charging system. Learning to watch
trends: "hey, that looked different than it did last time I started-up.
What's up with that?"
2. When the alternator fails, the ammeter automatically becomes a load meter to
aid the pilot in load-shedding, if necessary.
Exactly the info you want, exactly when you need it (without
flipping any switches).
What I don't like about Alternator Load Ammeters:
1. Alternator load is not a very useful piece of information
Do you really care what the alternator is putting out? Will you take any action
if the alternator load is 25 amps or if it is 40 amps - as long as the alternator
is working properly, it's replacing the necessary volume of electrons to
handle the load... automatically. It is either working properly or it isn't.
2. Alternator Load is kind of a muddled number. It is neither buss load nor is
it battery charge current. Those are 2 numbers I care something about but Alternator
Load gives me neither.
I'm unaware of a scenario where I would see some value on the Alternator Ammeter
and say "I better do something about that!" If it is too high, indicating a
full-field condition then I presume the my over-voltage protection system will
kick-in (probably before I even have time to look at the ammeter) and shut-down
the regulator. If the alternator stops making power, my low-volts alarm will
go off and my Alternator Load Ammeter is useless.
-Jeff
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 6:01 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
On Aug 30, 2014, at 6:47, Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com>
wrote:
Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like there
are 3 different electrical locations for it.
1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).
If you're going to measure current anywhere, this is the
FIRST choice . . . I will elaborate later . . .
2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but
it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main
buss.)
This is how it was done on cars and some airplanes for
decades. Useful ONLY to the individual who KNOWS about
how a battery behaves with a lot of electro-whizzies
wrapped around it. Good diagnostic tool but it requires
attention, memory (monitoring of trends) and an understanding
of battery physics. I don't recommend it.
3) Immediately before the main buss. So the ALT and Battery
can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before
they enter the buss as they're consumed. Then I'm getting a
measurement of true load (minus the start).
But you KNOW what that number is . . . right? This is
the FIRST task for crafting an electrical system is to
list everything that needs power, separate to appropriate
bus, tabulate the total bus energy needed under various
flight configurations. It's called a Load Analysis and
EVERY TC aircraft is blessed with one.
You won't find an ammeter in series with any bus structure
on a biz jet . . . ammeters monitor generator loads.
The PRIMARY electrical system monitor is active notification
of LOW VOLTS. When the light comes on, you look to see if
the alternator is putting out ANYTHING . . . MAYBE it has
popped a diode and is still putting out some energy but
at a reduced rate. You have the option of reducing load
until the light goes out.
Are we talking actual SHUNTS or Hall-Effect Current Sensors.
If the latter, one sensor can be used to monitor the output
of both alternators in a dual system like Z-12 or Z-13/8
http://tinyurl.com/kgg8nva
http://tinyurl.com/ag46m2f
Check out any of the architecture figures at
http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7
You will not find an ammeter shunt anywhere except on
the alternator B-leads . . .
Your NUMBER ONE tool for dealing with electrical system
malfunction is active notification of low voltage. Your
response to that event should be . . . at most . . .
the repositioning of a couple of switches whereupon you
assume Plan-B for getting comfortably on the ground.
If your Plan-B calls for reading displays, flipping
switches, pushing/pulling breakers, fiddling with
fuses and/or WONDERING how long the battery is going
to last . . . then you blew it before your airplane's
first flight.
For the most part, an ammeter is useful for figuring
things out AFTER you get back on the ground. Not having
one available in flight should NOT be a matter of concern.
Bob . . .
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