---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/28/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:06 AM - Re: Stator (Eric M. Jones) 2. 07:43 AM - Re: Batteries. (user9253) 3. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Stator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:26 AM - Re: Stator (Eric M. Jones) 5. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Batteries. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:49 AM - Re: alternator knocked off line when strobes turned on (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Batteries. (H. Marvin Haught) 8. 10:27 AM - Re: Stator (user9253) 9. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Batteries. (H. Marvin Haught) 10. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Batteries. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Batteries. (H. Marvin Haught) 12. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Batteries. (Jan) 13. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Batteries. (H. Marvin Haught) 14. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: Batteries. (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com) 15. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Batteries. (Jan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stator From: "Eric M. Jones" > I've also seen multiple layers (like 10 or so) of the Teflon > thread tape as an insulation between wires and laminations. Bob N. Bob, That's probably true, but that doesn't make it right. Don't use it. As for rewinding things, I've rewound a few motors and transformers in my salad days. I've even had to rewind the same Volvo wiper motor twice...it's a learning process. I even used an old record player to wind 10,000 turns of hair-thin wire on an early audio transformer. You can do well at this with the right materials and advice. And I wouldn't be surprised if you find someone to do it for you for short money. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431199#431199 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. From: "user9253" http://www.amazon.com/VMAX600-Motorcycle-Battery-Davidson-Kawasaki/dp/B00896WRHQ The VMAX600 weighs 2.4 pounds less than the PC680. If manufacturers' claims can not be depended on, weight could be an indicator of amp-hour capacity. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431200#431200 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stator At 09:02 2014-09-28, you wrote: > I've also seen multiple layers (like 10 or so) of the Teflon > thread tape as an insulation between wires and laminations. Bob N. Bob, That's probably true, but that doesn't make it right. Don't use it. Can you elaborate? As for rewinding things, I've rewound a few motors and transformers in my salad days. I've even had to rewind the same Volvo wiper motor twice...it's a learning process. I even used an old record player to wind 10,000 turns of hair-thin wire on an early audio transformer. You can do well at this with the right materials and advice. And I wouldn't be surprised if you find someone to do it for you for short money. To be sure, education was never cheap in terms of time and expense . . . but we're free . . . at least for now to choose what topics in which we wish to invest our educational budget. The List is an opportunity to share lessons learned and to sift alternatives. The teacher's imperative "Don't use it" is of little value unless the underlying foundations are offered as to why. Until he mentioned what appears to be a bi-fillar winding, the task was relatively low risk. Now, if we are to serve the questioner well, we need to make sure that WE and ultimately HE understands the significance of two wires laid down together. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stator From: "Eric M. Jones" Dear Bob N.: We hashed this out years ago on http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368877 Except for a very few uses, don't use Teflon...especially in winding stators, motors, and transformers. I used to design medical devices. in 1975 there were teflon parts everywhere. By 2001 all that was left was a FDA teflon injection paste and a couple o-rings that didn't matter much. Nothing else. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431206#431206 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote: > >http://www.amazon.com/VMAX600-Motorcycle-Battery-Davidson-Kawasaki/dp/B00896WRHQ >The VMAX600 weighs 2.4 pounds less than the PC680. If >manufacturers' claims can not be depended on, weight could be an >indicator of amp-hour capacity. >Joe Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were in a larger class of product than reality revealed. Emacs! I've still got a couple of these I keep for various tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20. One of the first things we noted about these critters was their light weight. The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to 6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle. The more conservative offerors of these cells seem to encourage longer life by rating them at much less than the chemistry's max capacity. So once again, weight of the cell is a strong first marker in potential performance with recommended performance being something more reserved. The next article will discuss my discoveries. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator knocked off line when strobes turned on Steve, I ran your ov relay carcass over the bench. While labeled to trip at 16.0 volts, this one wouldn't trip at 30 volts. Just why it WAS tripping under stimulus from your strobes remains a mystery . . . but this critter was toast. Bob . . . -------------------------------- At 22:25 2014-09-21, you wrote: >I will send it to the address on your website. > >Steve > > >Sent from my iPad > > > On Sep 21, 2014, at 2:23 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > wrote: > > > > At 13:11 2014-09-21, you wrote: > >> Here is a link to the schematic for the InterAv > alternator/regulator/OV relay combo. > http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4575&d=1355847096 > >> > >> I changed out the OV relay yesterday and everything returned to > the normal behavior experience before the failure. We will see how > long that lasts. > >> > >> Thanks again for all your help. > > > > Do you still have the old relay? I'd like to have > > it if you have no other plans for it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:20 AM PST US From: "H. Marvin Haught" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. Here is the type of battery I have been using for the last 20 years in my airplane. Generally, the battery will last around 5 to 6 years. I've only had one fail in that length of time as I generally replace them in year 5, letting them serve out their time as "jumper" batteries on in my lawnmower. And the one that failed was abused terribly as I left the master switch on and ran down completely in sub-zero weather, and it sat that way for 6 weeks or more. I have had excellent service from them, and no longer had to repair the battery box every 3 or 4 months. http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html M. Haught On Sep 28, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/VMAX600-Motorcycle-Battery-Davidson-Kawasaki/dp/B008 96WRHQ >> The VMAX600 weighs 2.4 pounds less than the PC680. If manufacturers' claims can not be depended on, weight could be an indicator of amp-hour capacity. >> Joe > > Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in > chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years > ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were > in a larger class of product than reality revealed. > > <4756e2d.jpg> > > > I've still got a couple of these I keep for various > tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20. > One of the first things we noted about these critters > was their light weight. > > The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation > of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes > on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells > off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to > 6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's > life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the > chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle. > > The more conservative offerors of these cells > seem to encourage longer life by rating them > at much less than the chemistry's max capacity. > So once again, weight of the cell is a strong > first marker in potential performance with > recommended performance being something more > reserved. > > The next article will discuss my discoveries. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:22 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stator From: "user9253" Quote from page 5 of Wind Turbine Stator Design http://tinyurl.com/Wind-Turbine-Stator-Design "The reason two wires are required for the 12V coils is due to the difficulty of winding very thick wire. The wire must be thick to handle the current, but this makes it difficult to bend so two thinner cables in parallel are used. This gives the same cross sectional area but is much easier to work with." Not saying this is the purpose of two wires in the Sonex stator but is a good possibility. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431214#431214 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:06 AM PST US From: "H. Marvin Haught" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. M. Haught On Sep 28, 2014, at 12:14 PM, H. Marvin Haught wrote: > Here is the type of battery I have been using for the last 20 years in my airplane. Generally, the battery will last around 5 to 6 years. I've only had one fail in that length of time as I generally replace them in year 5, letting them serve out their time as "jumper" batteries on in my lawnmower. And the one that failed was abused terribly as I left the master switch on and ran down completely in sub-zero weather, and it sat that way for 6 weeks or more. I have had excellent service from them, and no longer had to repair the battery box every 3 or 4 months. http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html > > M. Haught > > On Sep 28, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote: >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/VMAX600-Motorcycle-Battery-Davidson-Kawasaki/dp/B008 96WRHQ >>> The VMAX600 weighs 2.4 pounds less than the PC680. If manufacturers' claims can not be depended on, weight could be an indicator of amp-hour capacity. >>> Joe >> >> Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in >> chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years >> ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were >> in a larger class of product than reality revealed. >> >> <4756e2d.jpg> >> >> >> I've still got a couple of these I keep for various >> tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20. >> One of the first things we noted about these critters >> was their light weight. >> >> The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation >> of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes >> on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells >> off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to >> 6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's >> life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the >> chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle. >> >> The more conservative offerors of these cells >> seem to encourage longer life by rating them >> at much less than the chemistry's max capacity. >> So once again, weight of the cell is a strong >> first marker in potential performance with >> recommended performance being something more >> reserved. >> >> The next article will discuss my discoveries. >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: >Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium >batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? What size engine. What kind of starter? How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story my friend! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. From: "H. Marvin Haught" The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so. The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D. Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know! M. Haught On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: >> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. > > Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? > What size engine. What kind of starter? > > How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ > control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story > my friend! > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. From: Jan When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ? Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ? Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... . The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ... :-) All the best Jan > On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" wrote: > > > The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so. > > The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D. > > Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know! > > M. Haught >> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: >>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. >> >> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? >> What size engine. What kind of starter? >> >> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ >> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story >> my friend! >> >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. From: "H. Marvin Haught" It definitely does not perform well below freezing - most use has been camping in the 70's to 90's. It was just a rip off, for $352. The pack has 12 round batteries in a plastic shrink pack. Now, even at room temps at home, it won't run the CPAP more than 3 or 4 hours. I've been thinking of taking it to Battery Outfitters and see if they can rebuild it with better performing batteries that can use the original plugs and charger. They rebuilt all my drill batteries a year or so ago and they have been infinitely better than the OEM batteries.....hold a charge longer and it has already been 2 years since I had them rebuilt. I used my truck battery at Oshkosh this year, and it worked fine. On my new airplane project, I am going to just put in a second lighter weight battery that the electrical system will charge, and use it for my CPAP. Jeeping in the outback, we take a second battery and charge it as we drive during the day. M. Haught On Sep 28, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Jan wrote: > > When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ? > > Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ? > > Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... . > > The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ... :-) > > All the best > > Jan > >> On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" wrote: >> >> >> The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so. >> >> The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D. >> >> Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know! >> >> M. Haught >>> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> >>> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: >>>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. >>> >>> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? >>> What size engine. What kind of starter? >>> >>> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ >>> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story >>> my friend! >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:34 PM PST US From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. There is also an old saying that goes something like, when all fails, read the instructions. My reading of the LiFePo batteries documentation from several sources says that when very cold, the initial start attemp will warm the battery after which the engine will start normally. Rich In a message dated 9/28/2014 6:38:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jan@CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ? Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ? Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... . The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ... :-) All the best Jan > On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" wrote: > > > The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so. > > The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D. > > Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know! > > M. Haught >> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: >>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results. >> >> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? >> What size engine. What kind of starter? >> >> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ >> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story >> my friend! >> >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Batteries. From: Jan You are correct .. Using the battery will heat it up (wasted energy) ... Pro blem can be that the battery now have to be oversized to allow you to start i n the first place ... Or you have to put small load on it ... Gradually incr eased that load so the cell temp reaches the spec as per the supplier info S o that you now can pull the big load you require.. By then your pack might b e flat .. If it is to small ..and it is to cold to start with... All the best Jan > On Sep 29, 2014, at 9:57, wrote: > > There is also an old saying that goes something like, when all fails, read the instructions. My reading of the LiFePo batteries documentation from sev eral sources says that when very cold, the initial start attemp will warm th e battery after which the engine will start normally. > > Rich > > In a message dated 9/28/2014 6:38:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jan@CLAVE R.DEMON.CO.UK writes: > > When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room tempera ture ? > > Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ? > > Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of t he pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or co balt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... E ach type has its advantages and disadvantages ... . > > The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is sti ll very true ... Especially with Li-ion ... :-) > > All the best > > Jan > > > On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" wrote: > > disoncounty.net> > > > > The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so oft en, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPA P. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $35 2, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Cha rged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I t hought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I c harged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I u sed the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've ha ve tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is al l the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so. > > > > The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new o wner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. A t that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely dis charged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we g ot to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being c harged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Ze ftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D. > > > > Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is t he most of which I think I know! > > > > M. Haught > >> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> kolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > >> > >> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote: > >>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've t ried a couple with very disappointing results. > >> > >> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator? > >> What size engine. What kind of starter? > >> > >> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/ > >> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story > >> my friend! > >> > >> > >> > >> Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================== = Use utilities Day ================== ========================== ==== - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ========= ========================== ============= - List Contribution Web S ite sp; =============== ========================== ========= > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.