Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) (Charlie England)
2. 06:26 AM - Dual Alternator Question (Jerald Folkerts)
3. 07:37 AM - Re: Electrical redundancy (GLEN MATEJCEK)
4. 09:43 AM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:46 AM - Re: Dual Alternator Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:02 AM - Re: Toroid beads (D L Josephson)
8. 12:11 PM - Re: brown out on start (Eric M. Jones)
9. 12:54 PM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Dj Merrill)
10. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (Bill Allen)
11. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (Bob-tcw)
12. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (j. davis)
13. 05:22 PM - Re: Dual Alternator Question (RV7ASask)
14. 06:25 PM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 10:34 PM - B&C alternator question (Justin Jones)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, |
1 battery)
I don't have an EFII, but I am working with an automotive injection system.
I'd 2d Justin's comments, and add that unless you plumb in a check valve
that can bypass the dual EFII pumps, it is quite likely that the mechanical
pump will be unable to pump fuel with both electric pumps off or dead. All
the 'inline' style automotive injection pumps I've been able to find are
positive displacement pumps. They won't pass fuel unless the pump mechanism
is actually turning. See the EFII 'boost' pump for comparison; the skinny
cylinder next to the actual pump contains a check valve to pass fuel sucked
by the mechanical pump in a traditional Bendix style injection system.
I'd also ask about the operating pressure of the EFII system. Virtually all
current automotive systems operate in the 40-60 psi range; a standard Lyc
pump achieves barely half that. If he's using standard automotive
injectors, the engine would likely go so lean on just the mechanical pump
that it would quit.
We could be wrong, but if either or both of us are right, you could have
serious problems.
Charlie
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>
> I also have the EFII system with redundant ecus.
>
> Make sure you talk with Robert about the mechanical fuel pump in the EFII
> system. The issue I see with placing a mechanical fuel pump in the system
> would be pressurizing it with an electric fuel pump. The head pressure put
> out by the EFII pump module can damage the mechanical pump diaphragms. If
> one or both diaphragms begin to leak, you will loose fuel pressure to your
> injectors and they will fail to inject fuel into the cylinders, resulting
> in engine failure.
>
> If you MUST have the mechanical pump in the system, I would suggest that
> the fuel from the tanks run thru the mechanical fuel pump first, then thru
> the EFII electrical fuel pump module. More plumbing but much safer. I'm
> sure Robert Paisley will have an opinion as well.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Justin
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 2014, at 07:54, carrollcw <carrollswa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> carrollswa@gmail.com>
> >
> > For now, I just want to get it in the air for day/vfr/acro only.
> However, I will later make it fully night IFR.
> >
> > I am running the dual EFII ignition and fuel injection. Although I will
> have a mechanical pump, at least one electric pump must be running to
> sepply sufficient pressure.
> >
> > EI does not have its own power backup. After speaking with Robert at
> EFII, I am planning on wiring the 2 ECU's, 2 Ignitions, and 2 Fuel pumps to
> the always hot battery bus with switches for each of them, although I was
> planning on wiring the fuel pumps with a single dual pole switch.
> >
> > Basic architecture staying the same. Breakers for e-bus, fuses for
> everything else.
> >
> > Thanks for the help!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432174#432174
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Dual Alternator Question |
I'm planning on the Z-12 dual alternator single battery installation. I
have a VMC-1000 engine monitor and believe it only displays one alternator
output. Can I use a simple switch to add the B&C 20 Amp Vacuum Pad
alternator so I can check it periodically or should I add another ammeter?
Would the switch create enough resistance to throw off the readings on the
display?
Thanks,
Jerry Folkerts
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Electrical redundancy |
Justin- The Schottkey I'm using is from Eric's Perihelion site.
Peter- Eric's device did not exist when I designed my system, plus my long
term plans include some longer flights and perhaps some over water. Making
fuel in the tanks the limiting factor for my endurance was a fundamental
goal, as was the ease of mx affofrded by using two identical, inexpensive
batteries.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
We've had this discussion on the list many times over the past
few years. We can spend days pointing fingers back and forth blaming
the manufacturer or whomever as to why the radio/efis/panel-goodie
resets when cranking the engine, but the simple reality is that we do
have equipment that resets, and going back to the manufacturer and
pointing at DO-160 likely isn't going to get us anywhere in the short
term. One could argue that continually pestering the manufacturer
about the issue might get us somewhere in the long term, but in the
meantime we aren't likely to return our $12,000+ EFIS system because
of it, and we need to move forward.
Agreed. But question asked and never answered (if
it was, I missed it and beg forgiveness) is where
is it written that starting an engine before lighting
up the electro-whizzies is a high-risk activity
that flirts with $missery$ in the engine shop?
Okay, you bought a $12K EFIS system, what do the
manufacturers say about their design decision to
be intolerant of starter-inrush brown-out events?
We were taught to "Observe thy oil pressure during
start up lest thy wings curl up and propeller fall
off" but what is the foundation in physics for the
modern engine asserting that KNOWING rpm and
oil pressure within the first 30 seconds of start
up is necessary for low risk utility of that engine?
Comparing to a 172 owner isn't really relevant since we are primarily
talking about experimental avionics going into OBAM aircraft, and
they'll never see the inside of a 172 without highly unlikely and
significant regulatory changes.
Oh contraire . . . nobody can afford to bring a
product to market that targets only new production
aircraft. The C172 was an extreme example but certainly
thousands of existing airplanes in the A36/C210/PA46 class
are juicy targets for any new development. My MOST
successful design in terms of cash flow to my boss
was a field retrofit that far outpaced the production
line rates.
So how do they handle this conundrum in either a
current production -OR- an after-market retrofit?
It would seem the more efficient means of addressing this is to
design it into the architecture from the start (pun intended),
reducing battery and parts count, and making the overall system as
simple as possible, and only as complex as it needs to be and no more.
I suggest the cart has run down the hill in
front of the horse. How many people in the OBAM
aviation community are candidates for incorporating
these new electro-whizzies . . . I would judge that
the after-market potential is on a par with new
completions.
So the question still remains . . . just how important
is it that the screens be all lit up and stable during
engine start? If achievement of low risk comfort amongst
all aviators is critical . . . how do the heavy
iron guys do it. What, if any, modifications to
electrical system architecture were made to accommodate
these new products? What are the recommendations of
those who offer the products in the first place?
I'm not convinced that our que of requirements
ducks are yet all lined up . . .
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator Question |
At 08:25 2014-10-26, you wrote:
>I'm planning on the Z-12 dual alternator single battery
>installation. I have a VMC-1000 engine monitor and believe it only
>displays one alternator output. Can I use a simple switch to add
>the B&C 20 Amp Vacuum Pad alternator so I can check it periodically
>or should I add another ammeter? Would the switch create enough
>resistance to throw off the readings on the display?
If the VM1000 uses a hall-effect transducer, run BOTH
B-leads through the same transducer. The display will
show alternator load for the device presently in service.
However, since the SD-20 is a stand-by alternator fitted
with a dedicated hall-effect load sensing and indication
system, bringing alternator load numbers to the panel
offers no in formation of use to the pilot while in
flight.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, |
1 battery)
>
>We could be wrong, but if either or both of us are right, you could
>have serious problems.
I recall reading somewhere that the EFII fuel
pressures are more like 15 psi . . . much lower
than the legacy automotive systems. But I'd
still make sure that the mechanical pump performs
on a par with the electric standby pump.
MEASURE and then talk to EFII.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Toroid beads |
The constellation of materials used to make ferrites is referred to as
the "mix." Most common of the ferrites used in RF transformers and
chokes at VHF is type 43, which is mostly nickel and zinc. It's useful
over the whole com/nav/GS range, particularly if you are looking for
loss as we are, rather than high-Q inductance. There is good information
on the Palomar Engineers page referred to by Tom Gauthier. If you don't
recognize the joke in the Palomar author's pseudonym (sadly, the man
behind the name died at 90 last year after many excellent articles over
the years), you haven't been around antennas long enough...
Many engineers who use ferrites don't really understand what's going on.
Note that many manufacturers now specify the result of putting a core on
a wire in terms of impedance rather than inductance. It is not as simple
as a lumped inductance caused by increased permeability; if it were, the
effect would not be so broadband. Refer to several papers by Jim Brown
(and one by him and me, using a lot of H-P, W-J and Anritsu test
equipment) on ferrites at www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm ... Jim
and I started doing a lot of work analyzing the behavior of ferrites for
rfi reduction in audio equipment and learned a lot of surprising stuff.
The core mentioned in my previous post (the URL got mangled, go to
mouser.com and enter 2643625202) adds about 350 ohms of impedance,
mostly resistive, to a single wire at 100 MHz.
I agree, there's no reason to use ferrites on a receiving antenna. As I
mentioned, you use them only on a com antenna coax, where it attaches to
the antenna, when the VSWR is too high. If your radio works without
ferrites on the coax, leave them off, they are a band-aid to fix
compromised antenna design. They will never make a bad antenna better,
only allow a radio to work with a bad antenna when it might not
otherwise. The heat generated in the ferrite is the power you would have
radiated if the antenna had been properly matched. You want an actual
balun such as a Pawsey stub or a hybrid transformer for a VOR antenna
not to reduce VSWR, but to keep the pattern symmetrical. Not nice to
receive a VOR when you're heading east and have it disappear when you
turn west (I have had this experience while I was developing antennas on
my Mooney, and it was fixed by using a balun.) And some of us do use
VORs still.
David Josephson
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: brown out on start |
Thanks Peter,
The whole subject can be found at:
De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight
Eric M. Jones
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
> On Oct 26, 2014, at 12:42 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>
>
> Agreed. But question asked and never answered (if
> it was, I missed it and beg forgiveness) is where
> is it written that starting an engine before lighting
> up the electro-whizzies is a high-risk activity
> that flirts with $missery$ in the engine shop?
IMHO, when the engine is running, your eyes need to be outside the airplane,
not fiddling with the fancy avionics setting up your flight plan, etc. All
the fiddling should be done and things ready to go by the time you are read
y to push the start button. As others have mentioned in the past, some of t
he systems do not retain the flight information or other flight info after a
reboot.
I see it as a safety issue, not related to engine gauges, etc. Others do ha
ve the concern about the engine instruments, and this is important to them.
> Oh contraire . . . nobody can afford to bring a
> product to market that targets only new production
> aircraft.
I was trying say the stuff we are installing is targeted at experimental air
craft, not certified.
Your point about retrofits into flying aircraft, even experimental, is well t
aken (an exercise I just went through earlier this year), but adding brownou
t protection to the electrical system is no more difficult than the panel re
trofit, and I anticipated it as part of the overall upgrade project.
> I'm not convinced that our que of requirements
> ducks are yet all lined up . .
I know. There are many of us on this list that are convinced that brownout p
rotection is important, though, and are trying to gently guide you in that d
irection... :-)
-Dj
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: brown out on start |
Hi Eric,
Do you sell the "de-slumpifier" ?
regards,
Bill Allen
LongEz160 N99BA FD51
CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ
On 26 October 2014 20:10, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
> emjones@charter.net>
>
> Thanks Peter,
>
> The whole subject can be found at:
>
> De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight
>
> Eric M. Jones
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311
>
>
--
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: brown out on start |
I know that this form generally has been about rolling your own version
of electrical systems, but this topic is straight on point with products
we sell that address starting brown outs and back-up sources of power.
Our IPS series of products provides brown out protection with a true
dc-dc converter that operates all the way down to 5 volts of input
voltage. The connected equipment is provided with stable 12 volt
power as the input voltage fluctuates. We have a 4 amp and an 8 amp
version for use in 14 volts systems and a 5 amp version for 28 volt
systems.
We also sell our series of IBBS products. These integrated back-up
battery systems contain a rechargeable battery, automatic switching
logic and smart charging system all in one convenient package, and
ranging from 2 amp-hrs up to 6 amp-hrs in capacity. We have been
specified for use with the Garmin G3x product line as well as the
Advanced Flight System product line.
For all the details and the installation manuals please visit our web
site. www.tcwtech.com
Thanks,
Bob Newman
RV-10, N541RV
TCW Technologies, LLC.
From: Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start
Hi Eric,
Do you sell the "de-slumpifier" ?
regards,
Bill Allen
LongEz160 N99BA FD51
CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ
On 26 October 2014 20:10, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
<emjones@charter.net>
Thanks Peter,
The whole subject can be found at:
De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=
0&postorder=asc&highlight
Eric M. Jones
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: brown out on start |
Eric... are you making your slumpifier available as a kit? Or the circuit
board? Thanks!
On 26 October 2014 15:10, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
> emjones@charter.net>
>
> Thanks Peter,
>
> The whole subject can be found at:
>
> De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight
>
> Eric M. Jones
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311
>
>
--
Regards, J.
-----------------------------
J. Davis,
- Zenith STOL CH750 C-FJNJ: Jab 3300, Whilrwind GA prop, AeroCarb
- Sonex #325 (ex)C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder
- see these and more at http://cleco.ca
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator Question |
I am operating a Z12 electrical system in my RV7A and have been very pleased, 200+
hours. The aircraft has recently been certified IFR. It has a Dynon Skyview
and a simple switch on the panel to show volts and amps of the alternator selected.
Lights on the panel indicate the status of the two alternators.
David Lamb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432325#432325
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine |
crank
>
>I know. There are many of us on this list that are convinced that
>brownout protection is important, though, and are trying to gently
>guide you in that direction... :-)
A tried and proven technique has been around for about
12 years. ANY time a dedicated power source is
indicated for the protection of any electro-whizzy's
vulnerabilities to brown-out a simple
battery manager works just fine. This product was
sold out of our shops for many years
http://tinyurl.com/owut7o8
it's being replaced by a more modern version in a
nicer package and will be offered as the AEC9024,
4-function module.
The battery can be sized to run all the brown-out
vulnerable devices on their own battery until
after engine-start and the alternator is on
line (bus rises above 13.0 volts). In most
cases, this could probably be a 2 a.h. or
so SVLA.
Originally crafted to offer a 'protected' battery
for the #2 LightSpeed ignition battery . . . but
it would just as happily protect a small power
source from starter-inrush brownout without making
any other changes to system architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Subject: | B&C alternator question |
In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the standby alternator.
Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a generic ford
voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator controller?
I would connect it to the system in the same place (battery side of the battery
contractor). In the event of a primary alternator failure, I require 12A (worst
case scenario) to continue to run necessary systems without discharging the
battery. The SD-8 doesnt seem up to the task, not to mention the BC410-H is
a less expensive option.
Thanks!
Justin
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