---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/26/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) (Charlie England) 2. 06:26 AM - Dual Alternator Question (Jerald Folkerts) 3. 07:37 AM - Re: Electrical redundancy (GLEN MATEJCEK) 4. 09:43 AM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:46 AM - Re: Dual Alternator Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:02 AM - Re: Toroid beads (D L Josephson) 8. 12:11 PM - Re: brown out on start (Eric M. Jones) 9. 12:54 PM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Dj Merrill) 10. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (Bill Allen) 11. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (Bob-tcw) 12. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: brown out on start (j. davis) 13. 05:22 PM - Re: Dual Alternator Question (RV7ASask) 14. 06:25 PM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 10:34 PM - B&C alternator question (Justin Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) From: Charlie England I don't have an EFII, but I am working with an automotive injection system. I'd 2d Justin's comments, and add that unless you plumb in a check valve that can bypass the dual EFII pumps, it is quite likely that the mechanical pump will be unable to pump fuel with both electric pumps off or dead. All the 'inline' style automotive injection pumps I've been able to find are positive displacement pumps. They won't pass fuel unless the pump mechanism is actually turning. See the EFII 'boost' pump for comparison; the skinny cylinder next to the actual pump contains a check valve to pass fuel sucked by the mechanical pump in a traditional Bendix style injection system. I'd also ask about the operating pressure of the EFII system. Virtually all current automotive systems operate in the 40-60 psi range; a standard Lyc pump achieves barely half that. If he's using standard automotive injectors, the engine would likely go so lean on just the mechanical pump that it would quit. We could be wrong, but if either or both of us are right, you could have serious problems. Charlie On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Justin Jones wrote: > jmjones2000@mindspring.com> > > I also have the EFII system with redundant ecus. > > Make sure you talk with Robert about the mechanical fuel pump in the EFII > system. The issue I see with placing a mechanical fuel pump in the system > would be pressurizing it with an electric fuel pump. The head pressure put > out by the EFII pump module can damage the mechanical pump diaphragms. If > one or both diaphragms begin to leak, you will loose fuel pressure to your > injectors and they will fail to inject fuel into the cylinders, resulting > in engine failure. > > If you MUST have the mechanical pump in the system, I would suggest that > the fuel from the tanks run thru the mechanical fuel pump first, then thru > the EFII electrical fuel pump module. More plumbing but much safer. I'm > sure Robert Paisley will have an opinion as well. > > Hope this helps > > Justin > > > > On Oct 23, 2014, at 07:54, carrollcw wrote: > > > carrollswa@gmail.com> > > > > For now, I just want to get it in the air for day/vfr/acro only. > However, I will later make it fully night IFR. > > > > I am running the dual EFII ignition and fuel injection. Although I will > have a mechanical pump, at least one electric pump must be running to > sepply sufficient pressure. > > > > EI does not have its own power backup. After speaking with Robert at > EFII, I am planning on wiring the 2 ECU's, 2 Ignitions, and 2 Fuel pumps to > the always hot battery bus with switches for each of them, although I was > planning on wiring the fuel pumps with a single dual pole switch. > > > > Basic architecture staying the same. Breakers for e-bus, fuses for > everything else. > > > > Thanks for the help! > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432174#432174 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:52 AM PST US From: "Jerald Folkerts" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator Question I'm planning on the Z-12 dual alternator single battery installation. I have a VMC-1000 engine monitor and believe it only displays one alternator output. Can I use a simple switch to add the B&C 20 Amp Vacuum Pad alternator so I can check it periodically or should I add another ammeter? Would the switch create enough resistance to throw off the readings on the display? Thanks, Jerry Folkerts ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical redundancy From: GLEN MATEJCEK Justin- The Schottkey I'm using is from Eric's Perihelion site. Peter- Eric's device did not exist when I designed my system, plus my long term plans include some longer flights and perhaps some over water. Making fuel in the tanks the limiting factor for my endurance was a fundamental goal, as was the ease of mx affofrded by using two identical, inexpensive batteries. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank We've had this discussion on the list many times over the past few years. We can spend days pointing fingers back and forth blaming the manufacturer or whomever as to why the radio/efis/panel-goodie resets when cranking the engine, but the simple reality is that we do have equipment that resets, and going back to the manufacturer and pointing at DO-160 likely isn't going to get us anywhere in the short term. One could argue that continually pestering the manufacturer about the issue might get us somewhere in the long term, but in the meantime we aren't likely to return our $12,000+ EFIS system because of it, and we need to move forward. Agreed. But question asked and never answered (if it was, I missed it and beg forgiveness) is where is it written that starting an engine before lighting up the electro-whizzies is a high-risk activity that flirts with $missery$ in the engine shop? Okay, you bought a $12K EFIS system, what do the manufacturers say about their design decision to be intolerant of starter-inrush brown-out events? We were taught to "Observe thy oil pressure during start up lest thy wings curl up and propeller fall off" but what is the foundation in physics for the modern engine asserting that KNOWING rpm and oil pressure within the first 30 seconds of start up is necessary for low risk utility of that engine? Comparing to a 172 owner isn't really relevant since we are primarily talking about experimental avionics going into OBAM aircraft, and they'll never see the inside of a 172 without highly unlikely and significant regulatory changes. Oh contraire . . . nobody can afford to bring a product to market that targets only new production aircraft. The C172 was an extreme example but certainly thousands of existing airplanes in the A36/C210/PA46 class are juicy targets for any new development. My MOST successful design in terms of cash flow to my boss was a field retrofit that far outpaced the production line rates. So how do they handle this conundrum in either a current production -OR- an after-market retrofit? It would seem the more efficient means of addressing this is to design it into the architecture from the start (pun intended), reducing battery and parts count, and making the overall system as simple as possible, and only as complex as it needs to be and no more. I suggest the cart has run down the hill in front of the horse. How many people in the OBAM aviation community are candidates for incorporating these new electro-whizzies . . . I would judge that the after-market potential is on a par with new completions. So the question still remains . . . just how important is it that the screens be all lit up and stable during engine start? If achievement of low risk comfort amongst all aviators is critical . . . how do the heavy iron guys do it. What, if any, modifications to electrical system architecture were made to accommodate these new products? What are the recommendations of those who offer the products in the first place? I'm not convinced that our que of requirements ducks are yet all lined up . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator Question At 08:25 2014-10-26, you wrote: >I'm planning on the Z-12 dual alternator single battery >installation. I have a VMC-1000 engine monitor and believe it only >displays one alternator output. Can I use a simple switch to add >the B&C 20 Amp Vacuum Pad alternator so I can check it periodically >or should I add another ammeter? Would the switch create enough >resistance to throw off the readings on the display? If the VM1000 uses a hall-effect transducer, run BOTH B-leads through the same transducer. The display will show alternator load for the device presently in service. However, since the SD-20 is a stand-by alternator fitted with a dedicated hall-effect load sensing and indication system, bringing alternator load numbers to the panel offers no in formation of use to the pilot while in flight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring RV7 with Z13 diagram (2 alternators, 1 battery) > >We could be wrong, but if either or both of us are right, you could >have serious problems. I recall reading somewhere that the EFII fuel pressures are more like 15 psi . . . much lower than the legacy automotive systems. But I'd still make sure that the mechanical pump performs on a par with the electric standby pump. MEASURE and then talk to EFII. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:26 AM PST US From: D L Josephson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toroid beads The constellation of materials used to make ferrites is referred to as the "mix." Most common of the ferrites used in RF transformers and chokes at VHF is type 43, which is mostly nickel and zinc. It's useful over the whole com/nav/GS range, particularly if you are looking for loss as we are, rather than high-Q inductance. There is good information on the Palomar Engineers page referred to by Tom Gauthier. If you don't recognize the joke in the Palomar author's pseudonym (sadly, the man behind the name died at 90 last year after many excellent articles over the years), you haven't been around antennas long enough... Many engineers who use ferrites don't really understand what's going on. Note that many manufacturers now specify the result of putting a core on a wire in terms of impedance rather than inductance. It is not as simple as a lumped inductance caused by increased permeability; if it were, the effect would not be so broadband. Refer to several papers by Jim Brown (and one by him and me, using a lot of H-P, W-J and Anritsu test equipment) on ferrites at www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm ... Jim and I started doing a lot of work analyzing the behavior of ferrites for rfi reduction in audio equipment and learned a lot of surprising stuff. The core mentioned in my previous post (the URL got mangled, go to mouser.com and enter 2643625202) adds about 350 ohms of impedance, mostly resistive, to a single wire at 100 MHz. I agree, there's no reason to use ferrites on a receiving antenna. As I mentioned, you use them only on a com antenna coax, where it attaches to the antenna, when the VSWR is too high. If your radio works without ferrites on the coax, leave them off, they are a band-aid to fix compromised antenna design. They will never make a bad antenna better, only allow a radio to work with a bad antenna when it might not otherwise. The heat generated in the ferrite is the power you would have radiated if the antenna had been properly matched. You want an actual balun such as a Pawsey stub or a hybrid transformer for a VOR antenna not to reduce VSWR, but to keep the pattern symmetrical. Not nice to receive a VOR when you're heading east and have it disappear when you turn west (I have had this experience while I was developing antennas on my Mooney, and it was fixed by using a balun.) And some of us do use VORs still. David Josephson ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:30 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start From: "Eric M. Jones" Thanks Peter, The whole subject can be found at: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight Eric M. Jones -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank From: Dj Merrill > On Oct 26, 2014, at 12:42 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > Agreed. But question asked and never answered (if > it was, I missed it and beg forgiveness) is where > is it written that starting an engine before lighting > up the electro-whizzies is a high-risk activity > that flirts with $missery$ in the engine shop? IMHO, when the engine is running, your eyes need to be outside the airplane, not fiddling with the fancy avionics setting up your flight plan, etc. All the fiddling should be done and things ready to go by the time you are read y to push the start button. As others have mentioned in the past, some of t he systems do not retain the flight information or other flight info after a reboot. I see it as a safety issue, not related to engine gauges, etc. Others do ha ve the concern about the engine instruments, and this is important to them. > Oh contraire . . . nobody can afford to bring a > product to market that targets only new production > aircraft. I was trying say the stuff we are installing is targeted at experimental air craft, not certified. Your point about retrofits into flying aircraft, even experimental, is well t aken (an exercise I just went through earlier this year), but adding brownou t protection to the electrical system is no more difficult than the panel re trofit, and I anticipated it as part of the overall upgrade project. > I'm not convinced that our que of requirements > ducks are yet all lined up . . I know. There are many of us on this list that are convinced that brownout p rotection is important, though, and are trying to gently guide you in that d irection... :-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start From: Bill Allen Hi Eric, Do you sell the "de-slumpifier" ? regards, Bill Allen LongEz160 N99BA FD51 CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ On 26 October 2014 20:10, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > Thanks Peter, > > The whole subject can be found at: > > De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight > > Eric M. Jones > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311 > > -- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:51 PM PST US From: "Bob-tcw" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start I know that this form generally has been about rolling your own version of electrical systems, but this topic is straight on point with products we sell that address starting brown outs and back-up sources of power. Our IPS series of products provides brown out protection with a true dc-dc converter that operates all the way down to 5 volts of input voltage. The connected equipment is provided with stable 12 volt power as the input voltage fluctuates. We have a 4 amp and an 8 amp version for use in 14 volts systems and a 5 amp version for 28 volt systems. We also sell our series of IBBS products. These integrated back-up battery systems contain a rechargeable battery, automatic switching logic and smart charging system all in one convenient package, and ranging from 2 amp-hrs up to 6 amp-hrs in capacity. We have been specified for use with the Garmin G3x product line as well as the Advanced Flight System product line. For all the details and the installation manuals please visit our web site. www.tcwtech.com Thanks, Bob Newman RV-10, N541RV TCW Technologies, LLC. From: Bill Allen Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:32 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start Hi Eric, Do you sell the "de-slumpifier" ? regards, Bill Allen LongEz160 N99BA FD51 CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ On 26 October 2014 20:10, Eric M. Jones wrote: Thanks Peter, The whole subject can be found at: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays= 0&postorder=asc&highlight Eric M. Jones -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311 ========== - Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========== FORUMS - _blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: brown out on start From: "j. davis" Eric... are you making your slumpifier available as a kit? Or the circuit board? Thanks! On 26 October 2014 15:10, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > Thanks Peter, > > The whole subject can be found at: > > De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=99555&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight > > Eric M. Jones > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432311#432311 > > -- Regards, J. ----------------------------- J. Davis, - Zenith STOL CH750 C-FJNJ: Jab 3300, Whilrwind GA prop, AeroCarb - Sonex #325 (ex)C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder - see these and more at http://cleco.ca ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator Question From: "RV7ASask" I am operating a Z12 electrical system in my RV7A and have been very pleased, 200+ hours. The aircraft has recently been certified IFR. It has a Dynon Skyview and a simple switch on the panel to show volts and amps of the alternator selected. Lights on the panel indicate the status of the two alternators. David Lamb Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432325#432325 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank > >I know. There are many of us on this list that are convinced that >brownout protection is important, though, and are trying to gently >guide you in that direction... :-) A tried and proven technique has been around for about 12 years. ANY time a dedicated power source is indicated for the protection of any electro-whizzy's vulnerabilities to brown-out a simple battery manager works just fine. This product was sold out of our shops for many years http://tinyurl.com/owut7o8 it's being replaced by a more modern version in a nicer package and will be offered as the AEC9024, 4-function module. The battery can be sized to run all the brown-out vulnerable devices on their own battery until after engine-start and the alternator is on line (bus rises above 13.0 volts). In most cases, this could probably be a 2 a.h. or so SVLA. Originally crafted to offer a 'protected' battery for the #2 LightSpeed ignition battery . . . but it would just as happily protect a small power source from starter-inrush brownout without making any other changes to system architecture. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:00 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C alternator question In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the standby alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator controller? I would connect it to the system in the same place (battery side of the battery contractor). In the event of a primary alternator failure, I require 12A (worst case scenario) to continue to run necessary systems without discharging the battery. The SD-8 doesnt seem up to the task, not to mention the BC410-H is a less expensive option. Thanks! 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