Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Paul Millner)
2. 12:42 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (B Tomm)
3. 01:20 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Justin Jones)
4. 05:45 AM - Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (user9253)
5. 07:31 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:39 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:39 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design ()
9. 08:09 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (H. Marvin Haught)
10. 08:19 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Kelly McMullen)
11. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Ken Ryan)
12. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Dj Merrill)
13. 09:01 AM - Re: B&C alternator question (Paul Millner)
14. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Jeff Luckey)
15. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank (Dj Merrill)
16. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:17 PM - brown-out protection from automotive world (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
18. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design (Jeff Luckey)
19. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design ()
20. 02:25 PM - Re: brown out on start (Eric M. Jones)
21. 04:23 PM - LED (John)
22. 04:44 PM - Brown-out resets at engine start (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 04:55 PM - Re: LED (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 05:23 PM - Re: LED (John)
25. 05:48 PM - Re: LED (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 07:01 PM - Re: LED (John)
27. 07:36 PM - Re: LED (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 08:09 PM - Re: LED (Andy)
29. 08:25 PM - EAB IFR Certification (Owen Baker)
30. 08:25 PM - Re: LED (John)
31. 09:55 PM - Re: B&C alternator question (Justin Jones)
32. 11:53 PM - Re: B&C alternator question (Jeff Luckey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
>> Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a generic ford voltage
regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator controller?
Justin,
If you try to use an automotive Ford regulator, my experience shows you'll find
that an attempt to shutdown that alternator in the conventional method, by switching
off the field power to the regulator, will instead result in a voltage
runaway, with the regulator powering itself from the alternator directly with
NO regulation of voltage. Once that happens, turning the field power back on
does NOT result in voltage control... Overvoltage continues. The only way to restore
normal regulation is powering down the alternator, which usually means
engine shutdown... Not handy.
Paul
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | B&C alternator question |
Justin,
Are you sure that your CONTINUOUS Ebus load is greater than 10amps?
Momentary loads over 10 amps will source the excess from the battery, and
then recharge as the peak load drops off. If you can, measure your actual
loads. Measured loads will likely be less than what's published by the
manufacturer as those are likely maximums. Kind of like rounding up. If
you add a bunch of rounded up numbers together, you get a much higher number
than actual.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin
Jones
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C alternator question
--> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the standby
alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a
generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator
controller? I would connect it to the system in the same place (battery
side of the battery contractor). In the event of a primary alternator
failure, I require 12A (worst case scenario) to continue to run necessary
systems without discharging the battery. The SD-8 doesn't seem up to the
task, not to mention the BC410-H is a less expensive option.
Thanks!
Justin
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
I am sure the continuous required load will be greater than 10A. I live in Alaska
and I am including the Pitot heat into the equation. The aircraft that I
am building is all electric (instruments and engine). I will be flying quite
a bit at night and MVFR with the potential of IFR flights. Conditions conducive
to Pitot Tube icing exist often up here. With the ECUs, Ignition Coils, Fuel
Pumps, EFIS, GPS, Engine Monitor, Pitot Heat and required lights, I am over
10A. My goal is to have an electrical contingent based on my worst case scenario.
This would be a marginal weather flight, at night over remote stretches
of wilderness or water. I will not be doing these types of flights often, but
the majority of flying that I will do with this airplane will be off-airport
operations. I would like to have the option to use the devices that I may need
without the concern of discharging the battery. I would be more comfortable
on these more dangerous, higher risk flights if I knew that my back-up alternator
system was capable of handling a primary alternator failure without having
to decide what items to shut off in order to shed a load. I am designing the
limiting factor in the system to be fuel remaining. It is also a perk that
the larger alternator is less expensive.
Justin
On Oct 26, 2014, at 11:42 PM, B Tomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
> Are you sure that your CONTINUOUS Ebus load is greater than 10amps?
> Momentary loads over 10 amps will source the excess from the battery, and
> then recharge as the peak load drops off. If you can, measure your actual
> loads. Measured loads will likely be less than what's published by the
> manufacturer as those are likely maximums. Kind of like rounding up. If
> you add a bunch of rounded up numbers together, you get a much higher number
> than actual.
>
> Bevan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin
> Jones
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:32 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C alternator question
>
> --> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>
> In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the standby
> alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a
> generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator
> controller? I would connect it to the system in the same place (battery
> side of the battery contractor). In the event of a primary alternator
> failure, I require 12A (worst case scenario) to continue to run necessary
> systems without discharging the battery. The SD-8 doesn't seem up to the
> task, not to mention the BC410-H is a less expensive option.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Justin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
For many of us (if not most), experimental airplanes are toys. There are other
modes of transportation that are less expensive and safer. And some of these
aircraft have expensive avionics (more toys). Pilots want their avionics to
work without the annoyance of rebooting during engine start. It is not a matter
of what is needed or what is practical. We want to play with our toys without
being annoyed with brownouts. I would like to see this discussion deal with
a solution that is inexpensive, lightweight and uncomplicated. Topics could
include Eric's deslumpifier (capacitors), backup batteries, and DC to DC converters.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432340#432340
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
At 00:32 2014-10-27, you wrote:
><jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>
>In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the
>standby alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H
>20A and use a generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to
>use a B&C alternator controller? I would connect it to the system
>in the same place (battery side of the battery contractor). In the
>event of a primary alternator failure, I require 12A (worst case
>scenario) to continue to run necessary systems without discharging
>the battery. The SD-8 doesn't seem up to the task, not to mention
>the BC410-H is a less expensive option.
Suggest go with Z-12 and use ANY of the larger,
B&C pad-driven alternators.
The generic Ford regulators are 'okay' . . .
they perform as advertised but they are
not adjustable. Z-12 was orignially crafed
to accommodate an 'auto switching' mode
for the stand-by alternator (like those
systems installed on many, many TC aircraft.
The standby system is ON all the time with
a voltage regulator set for 1.0 volts below
the normal system voltage set-point. If the
main alternator goes south, bus voltage drops,
the s/b regulator tells the little alternator
to go to work. If you're using the B&C SB-1
controller, it will light an annunciator to
tell you that the alternator is on-line.
If in an overloaded state, the light will
flash. You then reduce loads until the light
is on steady indicating that the loads are
now within the alternator's capabilities.
If you don't want/need the auto-switched feature,
use the generic Ford regulator if you wish.
Leave s/b alternator OFF until advised that
it is needed by a low-volts warning whereupon
you bring the s/b alternator on line and
then adjust loads to keep the bus voltage
at the regulator's set-point or some value
at or below 100% of alternator's output as
displayed on a loadmeter.
KISS . . . Z-12 is recommended. I used to
have a Figure Z-13/20 that proved to be
rather in-elegant and I removed it.
Wire your "Ford" regulator thusly . . .
Emacs!
. . . as depicted in Figure Z-11.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
At 01:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>
> >> Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a
> generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C
> alternator controller?
>
>Justin,
>
>If you try to use an automotive Ford regulator, my experience shows
>you'll find that an attempt to shutdown that alternator in the
>conventional method, by switching off the field power to the
>regulator, will instead result in a voltage runaway, with the
>regulator powering itself from the alternator directly with NO
>regulation of voltage. Once that happens, turning the field power
>back on does NOT result in voltage control... Overvoltage continues.
>The only way to restore normal regulation is powering down the
>alternator, which usually means engine shutdown... Not handy.
This is a condition limited to the Cessna's which
do not tie "A" and "S" terminals together . . . a
condition that's okay for the legacy electro-mechanical
regulators and their solid-state clones.
The commercial off-the shelf replacement regulators
are sometimes wired a little differently within . . .
which does not affect their performance in cars
where alternators are not controlled. These not-
quite-a-clone variants will indeed produce the
behavior your describe . . . been there, done that.
But when wired as depicted in Z-11 and others, the
generic COTS regulators of all stripe are well
behaved performers.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
At 03:19 2014-10-27, you wrote:
<jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
I am sure the continuous required load will be greater than 10A. I
live in Alaska and I am including the Pitot heat into the
equation. The aircraft that I am building is all electric
(instruments and engine). I will be flying quite a bit at night and
MVFR with the potential of IFR flights. Conditions conducive to
Pitot Tube icing exist often up here. With the ECUs, Ignition Coils,
Fuel Pumps, EFIS, GPS, Engine Monitor, Pitot Heat and required
lights, I am over 10A. My goal is to have an electrical contingent
based on my worst case scenario. This would be a marginal weather
flight, at night over remote stretches of wilderness or water. I
will not be doing these types of flights often, but the majority of
flying that I will do with this airplane will be off-airport
operations. I would like to have the option to use the devices that
I may need without the concern of discharging the battery. I would
be more comfortable on these more dangerous, higher risk flights if I
knew that my back-up alternator system was capable of handling a
primary alternator failure without having to decide what items to
shut off in order to shed a load. I am designing the limiting factor
in the system to be fuel remaining. It is also a perk that the
larger alternator is less expensive.
Justin
Have you done a load analysis? These are non-
quantified assertions that are easily converted
to conditions of KNOWN significance with a little
pencil pushing . . .
Define "worst case" scenario and put a number on it . . .
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design |
Thanks! Very helpful discussion. Yes, the ferrites are for future COM
antennas being imbedded in composite structure where size does matter.
The below brings up a different question I have about a retrofit VOR/GS
antenna I need to install as well: A traditional 'T' shaped (with a slight
angle in the two radials) VOR antenna can not be utilized given the physical
constraints of the area it must be installed. There are really no other
options for mounting given the aircraft's shape and construction materials.
The two radials for the antenna will be in-line, no angle, horizontal and
mounted in a newly formed conduit drilled into the leading edge foam of a
small airfoil skinned with fiberglass. The radials will likely be solid
conductor wire or copper foil attached to a small wooden dowel for rigidity
during installation and soldered to the coax. I plan to construct a balun
out of coax as described below. This part is all rather straightforward.
The issue is: There is insufficient depth (fore/aft) in the area to run the
feed line coax sway from the radials to form the bottom of the 'T' so the
feed line coax must run parallel to and in close proximity of the (shield
connected) "lower" radial at least it's full length before being able to
re-direct away. Imagine a fully built "antenna of a stick" set being
inserted into a horizontal 5/8"dia conduit hole, then capping off the hole
with only the feed coax sticking out, then running to the radio. The end of
the "lower" radial can be right at the end of the conduit hole, or it can be
installed deeper into the structure if different design parameters dictate.
So, antenna gurus, the questions become: Will this sub-optimal antenna
config perform acceptably as a receive only antenna? Is there something
else I can do to make it more efficient given the space constraints, or is
there even a different antenna design more applicable to this install?
You input is appreciated.
-James
-----Original Message-----
From: D L Josephson
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 1:01 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toroid beads
I agree, there's no reason to use ferrites on a receiving antenna. As I
mentioned, you use them only on a com antenna coax, where it attaches to
the antenna, when the VSWR is too high. If your radio works without
ferrites on the coax, leave them off, they are a band-aid to fix
compromised antenna design. They will never make a bad antenna better,
only allow a radio to work with a bad antenna when it might not
otherwise. The heat generated in the ferrite is the power you would have
radiated if the antenna had been properly matched. You want an actual
balun such as a Pawsey stub or a hybrid transformer for a VOR antenna
not to reduce VSWR, but to keep the pattern symmetrical. Not nice to
receive a VOR when you're heading east and have it disappear when you
turn west (I have had this experience while I was developing antennas on
my Mooney, and it was fixed by using a balun.) And some of us do use
VORs still.
David Josephson
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
What is your opinion on the Zeftonici regulators? I had nothing but
trouble with regulators when I got my Pacer, and then heard about
Zeftronics. They got an STC for the Pacer PA20, and I put one on. It
has been absolutely trouble free for 20+ years, and I don't remember it
being very expensive.
M. Haught
On Oct 27, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 00:32 2014-10-27, you wrote:
<jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>>
>> In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the
standby alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A
and use a generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a
B&C alternator controller? I would connect it to the system in the same
place (battery side of the battery contractor). In the event of a
primary alternator failure, I require 12A (worst case scenario) to
continue to run necessary systems without discharging the battery. The
SD-8 doesn=92t seem up to the task, not to mention the BC410-H is a less
expensive option.
>
> Suggest go with Z-12 and use ANY of the larger,
> B&C pad-driven alternators.
>
> The generic Ford regulators are 'okay' . . .
> they perform as advertised but they are
> not adjustable. Z-12 was orignially crafed
> to accommodate an 'auto switching' mode
> for the stand-by alternator (like those
> systems installed on many, many TC aircraft.
>
> The standby system is ON all the time with
> a voltage regulator set for 1.0 volts below
> the normal system voltage set-point. If the
> main alternator goes south, bus voltage drops,
> the s/b regulator tells the little alternator
> to go to work. If you're using the B&C SB-1
> controller, it will light an annunciator to
> tell you that the alternator is on-line.
> If in an overloaded state, the light will
> flash. You then reduce loads until the light
> is on steady indicating that the loads are
> now within the alternator's capabilities.
>
> If you don't want/need the auto-switched feature,
> use the generic Ford regulator if you wish.
> Leave s/b alternator OFF until advised that
> it is needed by a low-volts warning whereupon
> you bring the s/b alternator on line and
> then adjust loads to keep the bus voltage
> at the regulator's set-point or some value
> at or below 100% of alternator's output as
> displayed on a loadmeter.
>
> KISS . . . Z-12 is recommended. I used to
> have a Figure Z-13/20 that proved to be
> rather in-elegant and I removed it.
>
> Wire your "Ford" regulator thusly . . .
>
> <21fe9360.jpg>
>
> . . . as depicted in Figure Z-11.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
Is there any concern with the vacuum pump pad driven alternators of the
coupling to the engine gears failing?
I assume they have some sort of shear or slip connection to protect the
engine from a bearing seizure.
Does the electrical load imposed have any effect on that coupling?
On 10/27/2014 7:29 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 00:32 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>>
>> In the Z-13/8 Diagram, it specifies the use of an SD-8 PM as the
>> standby alternator. Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H
>> 20A and use a generic ford voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to
>> use a B&C alternator controller? I would connect it to the system in
>> the same place (battery side of the battery contractor). In the
>> event of a primary alternator failure, I require 12A (worst case
>> scenario) to continue to run necessary systems without discharging
>> the battery. The SD-8 doesnt seem up to the task, not to mention the
>> BC410-H is a less expensive option.
>
> Suggest go with Z-12 and use ANY of the larger,
> B&C pad-driven alternators.
>
> The generic Ford regulators are 'okay' . . .
> they perform as advertised but they are
> not adjustable. Z-12 was orignially crafed
> to accommodate an 'auto switching' mode
> for the stand-by alternator (like those
> systems installed on many, many TC aircraft.
>
> The standby system is ON all the time with
> a voltage regulator set for 1.0 volts below
> the normal system voltage set-point. If the
> main alternator goes south, bus voltage drops,
> the s/b regulator tells the little alternator
> to go to work. If you're using the B&C SB-1
> controller, it will light an annunciator to
> tell you that the alternator is on-line.
> If in an overloaded state, the light will
> flash. You then reduce loads until the light
> is on steady indicating that the loads are
> now within the alternator's capabilities.
>
> If you don't want/need the auto-switched feature,
> use the generic Ford regulator if you wish.
> Leave s/b alternator OFF until advised that
> it is needed by a low-volts warning whereupon
> you bring the s/b alternator on line and
> then adjust loads to keep the bus voltage
> at the regulator's set-point or some value
> at or below 100% of alternator's output as
> displayed on a loadmeter.
>
> KISS . . . Z-12 is recommended. I used to
> have a Figure Z-13/20 that proved to be
> rather in-elegant and I removed it.
>
> Wire your "Ford" regulator thusly . . .
>
> Emacs!
>
> . . . as depicted in Figure Z-11.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
If you have two batteries wired so that one is for starting, doesn't that
solve the problem?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 4:43 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For many of us (if not most), experimental airplanes are toys. There are
> other modes of transportation that are less expensive and safer. And some
> of these aircraft have expensive avionics (more toys). Pilots want their
> avionics to work without the annoyance of rebooting during engine start.
> It is not a matter of what is needed or what is practical. We want to play
> with our toys without being annoyed with brownouts. I would like to see
> this discussion deal with a solution that is inexpensive, lightweight and
> uncomplicated. Topics could include Eric's deslumpifier (capacitors),
> backup batteries, and DC to DC converters.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432340#432340
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
Yes, potentially if it is wired correctly.
The point I was trying to subtly make was that we don't yet have a Z
figure that incorporates brownout protection (that I am aware of, please
correct me if this is incorrect), and many people keep asking about this.
-Dj
On 10/27/2014 11:29 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> If you have two batteries wired so that one is for starting, doesn't
> that solve the problem?
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 4:43 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com
> <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>
> For many of us (if not most), experimental airplanes are toys.
> There are other modes of transportation that are less expensive and
> safer. And some of these aircraft have expensive avionics (more
> toys). Pilots want their avionics to work without the annoyance of
> rebooting during engine start. It is not a matter of what is needed
> or what is practical. We want to play with our toys without being
> annoyed with brownouts. I would like to see this discussion deal
> with a solution that is inexpensive, lightweight and uncomplicated.
> Topics could include Eric's deslumpifier (capacitors), backup
> batteries, and DC to DC converters.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 13
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| Subject: | B&C alternator question |
Thanks, Bob, for including the diagram; I wasn't aware that tying A & S
together solved the runaway problem, as I'm not sure exactly how the
currently available automotive regulators are wired to *cause* the runaway
problem in the first place. But I can tell you from personal experience that
an uncontrollable alternator runaway is *very* unpleasant for the
pilot-in-command, especially if he's also the one that writes checks to keep
the airplane airworthy. :)
Seems like this might be a good workaround for legacy aircraft as well?
Paul
>> This is a condition limited to the Cessna's which
do not tie "A" and "S" terminals together . . . a
condition that's okay for the legacy electro-mechanical
regulators and their solid-state clones.
The commercial off-the shelf replacement regulators
are sometimes wired a little differently within . . .
which does not affect their performance in cars
where alternators are not controlled. These not-
quite-a-clone variants will indeed produce the
behavior your describe . . . been there, done that.
But when wired as depicted in Z-11 and others, the
generic COTS regulators of all stripe are well
behaved performers.
Wire your "Ford" regulator thusly . . .
. . . as depicted in Figure Z-11.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
No Z drawing but, as you & I have discussed DJ, brown-out protection is one of
the design criteria behind my UPS-style design.
[evangelize mode: On]
Brown-out protection is baked-in to the design. It is not an afterthought. And
one of its advantages is its simplicity. It does not require voltage-sensing
modules, multiple busses, relays, DC-to-DC converters, mega-capacitors, etc.
(I know you are aware of this but other members may not be).
[evangelize mode: Off]
-Jeff
On Monday, October 27, 2014 8:54 AM, Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net> wrote:
Yes, potentially if it is wired correctly.
The point I was trying to subtly make was that we don't yet have a Z
figure that incorporates brownout protection (that I am aware of, please
correct me if this is incorrect), and many people keep asking about this.
-Dj
On 10/27/2014 11:29 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> If you have two batteries wired so that one is for starting, doesn't
> that solve the problem?
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 4:43 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com
> <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>
> For many of us (if not most), experimental airplanes are toys.
> There are other modes of transportation that are less expensive and
> safer. And some of these aircraft have expensive avionics (more
> toys). Pilots want their avionics to work without the annoyance of
> rebooting during engine start. It is not a matter of what is needed
> or what is practical. We want to play with our toys without being
> annoyed with brownouts. I would like to see this discussion deal
> with a solution that is inexpensive, lightweight and uncomplicated.
> Topics could include Eric's deslumpifier (capacitors), backup
> batteries, and DC to DC converters.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: was RV-14, now brownouts/resets at engine crank |
On 10/27/2014 12:12 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> No Z drawing but, as you & I have discussed DJ, brown-out protection is
> one of the design criteria behind my UPS-style design.
Yes, I know. I am trying to gently nudge Bob to include a Z drawing
with brownout protection in the Aeroelectric Connection since so many
people are repeatedly asking about it.
My own version incorporating the KISS principle:
http://deej.net/glastar/pics/electrical/Electrical-Rev-3.jpg
Please forgive the rough drawing. I've been flying with this for a few
months now and am happy with it.
I haven't updated the drawing, but changes that I've made are:
1) The GRT Mini-X only has one power input, so it is wired only to the
Essential buss.
2) The GPS, COM and NAV radios are on the Essential buss.
The Essential Buss diode is the 221-201 sold by B&C:
http://www.bandc.biz/essentialbusdiodew15wattheatsink.aspx
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design |
At 09:47 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>
>Thanks! Very helpful discussion. Yes, the ferrites are for future
>COM antennas being imbedded in composite structure where size does matter.
>
>The below brings up a different question I have about a retrofit
>VOR/GS antenna I need to install as well: A traditional 'T' shaped
>(with a slight angle in the two radials) VOR antenna can not be
>utilized given the physical constraints of the area it must be
>installed. There are really no other options for mounting given the
>aircraft's shape and construction materials. The two radials for the
>antenna will be in-line, no angle, horizontal and mounted in a newly
>formed conduit drilled into the leading edge foam of a small airfoil
>skinned with fiberglass. The radials will likely be solid
>conductor wire or copper foil attached to a small wooden dowel for
>rigidity during installation and soldered to the coax. I plan to
>construct a balun out of coax as described below. This part is all
>rather straightforward.
Any 'morphing' of geometry from the center-fed
dipole driven with coax at right angles will
result in a degradation of performance in terms
of pattern and impedance matching. The closest
anyone has come to an elegant end-fed dipole in
the airplanes was the Miracle Antenna brand
"air-whip", end-feed dipole antenna with the
toroidal common mode choke we discussed earlier
this past week.
Emacs!
Emacs!
You could string this style antenna out under a
leading edge but you still have to deal with the common-
mode choke 'lump' . . .
I note that Miracle Antennas seems to have
closed the doors. Aircraft Spruce doesn't offer
the antennas any more and the website is black.
They were in business for a lot of years and ejoyed
some good reviews by their ham-radio clients.
It seems that their demise is based more on business
issues than product performance issues.
The big problem with development of the
lead edge vor antenna is the inconvenient
packaging process that involves cut-n-try
experiments on a device buried under
layers of Fiberglas.
It follows that what ever lies underneath that
layer of glass and epoxy should be a low-risk
configuration . . . it's damned hard to change
if you don't like it.
This seems like an ideal application for an active
antenna. This is a relatively short (on the order of
6 to 12 inches long attached to a very compact
amplifier right at the end of the coax feedline.
It takes a little fussing to get dc voltage out
to the amplifier on the coax but this could well
be a VERY compact solution to a receive-only antenna
for VOR that eliminates the geometry issues that
arise when you try to put a center fed dipole into
a leading edge.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | brown-out protection from automotive world |
6 years ago I invested <$100 in a 90W 12V/5V DC-DC regulator from
Carnetix normally used to power car PCs and advertised to =93survive
engine cranking under full load over entire temperature range=94. The
actual specs say it will maintain 12VDC output =B15% from 7.5-18V input
from -10=B0C to 70=B0C
I use the 12V output mainly to power my MGL EFIS and the 5V output for
my fuel flow sensor and for a panel USB port. Main reason was to get
cleaner power, not for brownout protection, but it does both. Was
unsure of its reliability, so I wired it with a bypass to the main buss,
knowing I would lose the USB and fuel flow readout if I had to bypass.
Comes in an aluminum case with an internal fan you can barely hear with
the engine off.
So far, in 6 years of mountain operations where it gets very hot and
very cold under the panel, it has never hiccoughed and has never let
anything shut down, even during extended engine cranking at temps near
-20=B0C when I nearly went through both PC-680s!
I don=92t work for or have any interest in Carnetix. Checked the web
site
www.carnetix.com, and the same power supply, CNX-1290, is still
available for <$100! They also have 140W and 185W (250W@24V in)
versions which also offer PC-type 18-20VDC outputs if you need such.
FWIW,
Andy
------------------------
Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568
N601GE/Z601XLb/TD/Corvair
630 hrs since 11/08
<http://servi-aero.com/n601ge/4sale/> Web Site Link
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design |
You may already be aware but thought I would mention it - Have you read Bob Archer's
stuff on antennas? I think is company is called Sportcraft Antennas. A
quick google should find his website.
FYI,
-Jeff
On Monday, October 27, 2014 12:37 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 09:47 2014-10-27, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: <berkut13@berkut13.com>
>
>Thanks! Very helpful discussion. Yes, the ferrites are for
future COM antennas being imbedded in composite structure where size does
matter.
>
>The below brings up a different question I have about a retrofit VOR/GS
antenna I need to install as well: A traditional 'T' shaped
(with a slight angle in the two radials) VOR antenna can not be utilized
given the physical constraints of the area it must be installed.
There are really no other options for mounting given the aircraft's shape
and construction materials. The two radials for the antenna will be
in-line, no angle, horizontal and mounted in a newly formed conduit
drilled into the leading edge foam of a small airfoil skinned with
fiberglass. The radials will likely be solid conductor wire
or copper foil attached to a small wooden dowel for rigidity during
installation and soldered to the coax. I plan to construct a balun
out of coax as described below. This part is all rather
straightforward.
Any 'morphing' of geometry from the center-fed
dipole driven with coax at right angles will
result in a degradation of performance in terms
of pattern and impedance matching. The closest
anyone has come to an elegant end-fed dipole in
the airplanes was the Miracle Antenna brand
"air-whip", end-feed dipole antenna with the
toroidal common mode choke we discussed earlier
this past week.
You could string this style antenna out under a
leading edge but you still have to deal with the
common-
mode choke 'lump' . . .
I note that Miracle Antennas seems to have
closed the doors. Aircraft Spruce doesn't offer
the antennas any more and the website is black.
They were in business for a lot of years and ejoyed
some good reviews by their ham-radio clients.
It seems that their demise is based more on business
issues than product performance issues.
The big problem with development of the
lead edge vor antenna is the inconvenient
packaging process that involves cut-n-try
experiments on a device buried under
layers of Fiberglas.
It follows that what ever lies underneath that
layer of glass and epoxy should be a low-risk
configuration . . . it's damned hard to change
if you don't like it.
This seems like an ideal application for an active
antenna. This is a relatively short (on the order of
6 to 12 inches long attached to a very compact
amplifier right at the end of the coax feedline.
It takes a little fussing to get dc voltage out
to the amplifier on the coax but this could well
be a VERY compact solution to a receive-only antenna
for VOR that eliminates the geometry issues that
arise when you try to put a center fed dipole into
a leading edge.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design |
Bob,
Based on what you have indicated, this type of =9Cair
whip=9D antenna would work very well in this area =93 small
airfoil leading edge D-section (carbon spared, glass skinned canard in
this case). I can feed the antenna portion of the assembly into the
foam conduit and the choke can reside inside the fuselage area, either
just outside the airfoil skin, or I can build a small access box for it.
If an =9Cactive=9D box is required, electrical is readily
available in this area too. All of this can be done without affecting
the external airfoil surface and thus easy to implement and potentially
to remove and service.
Can you point me to some more specific info on how to build this type of
antenna and choke?
Thanks!
-James
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Toroid beads/VOR antenna design
At 09:47 2014-10-27, you wrote:
The below brings up a different question I have about a retrofit
VOR/GS antenna I need to install as well: A traditional 'T' shaped
(with a slight angle in the two radials) VOR antenna can not be utilized
given the physical constraints of the area it must be installed.
"air-whip", end-feed dipole antenna with the
toroidal common mode choke we discussed earlier
this past week.
You could string this style antenna out under a
leading edge but you still have to deal with the common-
mode choke 'lump' . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: brown out on start |
I don't sell the "De-Slumpifier", nor do I sell a kit.
My approach was to show and demonstrate a technique that could be used.
Frankly there are too many variables to build a general-purpose unit for sale.
The parameters I sketched can be extended for many applications.
But hey, that's why this is called "experimental".
Good luck.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432376#432376
Message 21
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Hi
I am trying to use a 12 volt LED for an "Alt Warn" light. The alternator manufacturer
provides a wiring diagram for the warning light and specifies using a
100ma light. The LED specs that I want to use are 12v and 20ma. When I try and
use the LED as is, there is intermittent low intensity flickering of the warning
light while the engine is running. The alternator output is a constant
14.5 volts. The problem is eliminated by using a 100ma incandescent lamp as per
the manufacturer's recommendation. I would suspect that there is a small amount
of current in the warning circuit that is enough to cause intermittent operation
of the LED, albeit very dimly. The LED does go to full intensity when
operating in a warning mode. Can a resister be added to the circuit to make
the LED comparable with the Alt manufacturer's spec of using 100ma lamp. If
so, what size resister and is installed in parallel? It would be nice if I can
use the LED, as it matches the other lights in my annunciation panel.
Thanks,
John C
Message 22
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| Subject: | Brown-out resets at engine start |
At 10:43 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>
>Yes, potentially if it is wired correctly.
>
>The point I was trying to subtly make was that we don't yet have a Z
>figure that incorporates brownout protection (that I am aware of, please
>correct me if this is incorrect), and many people keep asking about this.
It's been discussed and several options offered for
years.
(1) Z-14 where starting is accomplished with one battery . . .
(2) Any Z-figure with an aux battery auto-switched
like the original ABMM concept except the battery services
the e-bus as opposed to ignition systems or . . .
(3) A simple form of auto-switching is illustrated in Z-8
offering an aux battery auto-switched through a relay that
disconnects the battery from the main bus while the starter
is engaged . . . in this configuration, the e-bus alternate
feed switch is closed during engine start. Add one relay,
fuse holder and battery sized to task to any system with
an e-bus.
There are probably a half dozen or more other solutions
that speak to design goals for brown-out protection that
are simply modification to the existing Z-figures. Mods
with no impact on design goals that brought the Z-figure
into existence in the first place.
My current thinking says the dragon to be tamed is not
how to switch the battery into service . . . but battery
selection for minimizing volume, weight and cost of
ownership. As I mentioned earlier, sand-castles built
in the lithium sandbox over the past few weeks have
planted seeds of some ideas.
The battery needs to be capable of say 5A of delivery
at 10+ volts for a period of not more than 0.5
seconds about 50 times a year. It's never depended on
for standby power, hence never expected to be discharged.
It also needs to demonstrate a long, "shelf life"
as a device that spends most of its time open circuit,
50 hours a year attached to a charger, and never asked
to deliver more than 50 Joules per discharge/charge
cycle.
In this case, the elegant solution is driven more
strongly by product selection than by architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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At 18:22 2014-10-27, you wrote:
Hi
I am trying to use a 12 volt LED for an "Alt Warn" light. The
alternator manufacturer provides a wiring diagram for the warning
light and specifies using a 100ma light. The LED specs that I want
to use are 12v and 20ma. When I try and use the LED as is, there is
intermittent low intensity flickering of the warning light while the
engine is running. The alternator output is a constant 14.5
volts. The problem is eliminated by using a 100ma incandescent lamp
as per the manufacturer's recommendation. I would suspect that there
is a small amount of current in the warning circuit that is enough to
cause intermittent operation of the LED, albeit very dimly. The LED
does go to full intensity when operating in a warning mode. Can a
resister be added to the circuit to make the LED comparable with the
Alt manufacturer's spec of using 100ma lamp. If so, what size
resister and is installed in parallel? It would be nice if I can use
the LED, as it matches the other lights in my annunciation panel.
Where does this alternator warn signal come from? Out of
the alternator? Those built-in warning circuits are not
all inclusive for alternator failure. Does your system
include a LOW VOLTS warning light? LOW VOLTS WARN is the PRIMARY
and all-inclusive annunciation for alternator health.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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The signal comes the alternator. The light indicates an "Alternator Out" c
ondition.
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 7:53 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
>
ls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 18:22 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I am trying to use a 12 volt LED for an "Alt Warn" light. The alternator m
anufacturer provides a wiring diagram for the warning light and specifies us
ing a 100ma light. The LED specs that I want to use are 12v and 20ma. When
I try and use the LED as is, there is intermittent low intensity flickering
of the warning light while the engine is running. The alternator output is
a constant 14.5 volts. The problem is eliminated by using a 100ma incandes
cent lamp as per the manufacturer's recommendation. I would suspect that th
ere is a small amount of current in the warning circuit that is enough to ca
use intermittent operation of the LED, albeit very dimly. The LED does go t
o full intensity when operating in a warning mode. Can a resister be added
to the circuit to make the LED comparable with the Alt manufacturer's spec o
f using 100ma lamp. If so, what size resister and is installed in parallel?
It would be nice if I can use the LED, as it matches the other lights in m
y annunciation panel.
>
> Where does this alternator warn signal come from? Out of
> the alternator? Those built-in warning circuits are not
> all inclusive for alternator failure. Does your system
> include a LOW VOLTS warning light? LOW VOLTS WARN is the PRIMARY
> and all-inclusive annunciation for alternator health.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 25
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At 19:22 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>The signal comes the alternator. The light indicates an
>"Alternator Out" condition.
If you leave the lamp disconnected, does the
alternator still operate? Some early internal
regulators were designed to shut down if the
warning lamp burned out. Lots of owners spliced
a reistor around the lamp to make sure it stayed
on line with a dead-bulb.
If it will run without a lamp, then ignore the
wire. If a lamp has to be in place for the
alternator to run, then wire the terminal
to the b-terminal with a 150-ohm, 2w resistor.
I can send you one if you have trouble finding
one.
On the flip side of decision, plan on a low
volts warning system of some type. I can show
you how to build one or order one from a
variety of sources.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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Bob, I appreciate your help with this. The alternator runs without the lamp (the
manufacturer advises that it is optional). The plane has already been wired
for the "Alternator Out" lamp and panel labelled. As such, I am thinking that
I would like to keep it if I can get it to work with the LED. I agree with
you on merits of a low voltage warning and have configured my EIS to alert to
such a condition.
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 8:47 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
>
> At 19:22 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>> The signal comes the alternator. The light indicates an "Alternator Out" condition.
>
> If you leave the lamp disconnected, does the
> alternator still operate? Some early internal
> regulators were designed to shut down if the
> warning lamp burned out. Lots of owners spliced
> a reistor around the lamp to make sure it stayed
> on line with a dead-bulb.
>
> If it will run without a lamp, then ignore the
> wire. If a lamp has to be in place for the
> alternator to run, then wire the terminal
> to the b-terminal with a 150-ohm, 2w resistor.
> I can send you one if you have trouble finding
> one.
>
> On the flip side of decision, plan on a low
> volts warning system of some type. I can show
> you how to build one or order one from a
> variety of sources.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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At 20:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>
>Bob, I appreciate your help with this. The alternator runs without
>the lamp (the manufacturer advises that it is optional). The plane
>has already been wired for the "Alternator Out" lamp and panel
>labelled. As such, I am thinking that I would like to keep it if I
>can get it to work with the LED. I agree with you on merits of a
>low voltage warning and have configured my EIS to alert to such a condition.
Low volts being labeled ALT OUT is not inconsistent.
Use a 150 ohm resistor to 'dummy load' the output
signal. Put 470 in series with LED in parallel with
150 ohm. Adjust 470 ohm resistor upward if too bright.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 28
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Not to hijack this thread, but.....
I have a LED lighting strip under my glare shield for flood lighting that is
controlled by a PWM dimmer. It is too bright for night ops and was wonderin
g if I may be able to use a resistor like in this example to dim it further.
Thanks,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 9:35 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 20:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob, I appreciate your help with this. The alternator runs without the l
amp (the manufacturer advises that it is optional). The plane has already b
een wired for the "Alternator Out" lamp and panel labelled. As such, I am t
hinking that I would like to keep it if I can get it to work with the LED. I
agree with you on merits of a low voltage warning and have configured my EI
S to alert to such a condition.
>
> Low volts being labeled ALT OUT is not inconsistent.
>
> Use a 150 ohm resistor to 'dummy load' the output
> signal. Put 470 in series with LED in parallel with
> 150 ohm. Adjust 470 ohm resistor upward if too bright.
>
> <24974424.jpg>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | EAB IFR Certification |
10/27/2014
Hello David Lamb, You wrote that your EAB (Experimental Amateur Built)
airplane (an RV 7A) =9C....has recently been certified
IFR=9D.
1) Can you please tell me (and the list) what organization did this
certification?
2) What did the certification process consist of?
3) How does the certificate read (exact wording)?
4) What regulations or published documents provided the standards that
must be met for this certification?
Thank you,
OC
========
Time: 05:22:01 PM PST US
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator Question
From: "RV7ASask" <rv7alamb@sasktel.net>
I am operating a Z12 electrical system in my RV7A and have been very
pleased, 200+
hours. The aircraft has recently been certified IFR. It has a Dynon
Skyview
and a simple switch on the panel to show volts and amps of the
alternator selected.
Lights on the panel indicate the status of the two alternators.
David Lamb
Message 30
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Thanks Bob.
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 10:35 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>
> At 20:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob, I appreciate your help with this. The alternator runs without the l
amp (the manufacturer advises that it is optional). The plane has already b
een wired for the "Alternator Out" lamp and panel labelled. As such, I am t
hinking that I would like to keep it if I can get it to work with the LED. I
agree with you on merits of a low voltage warning and have configured my EI
S to alert to such a condition.
>
> Low volts being labeled ALT OUT is not inconsistent.
>
> Use a 150 ohm resistor to 'dummy load' the output
> signal. Put 470 in series with LED in parallel with
> 150 ohm. Adjust 470 ohm resistor upward if too bright.
>
> <24974424.jpg>
>
>
> Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
Is there a way to wire 2 shunts to a single Ammeter using a selector switch? Looking
at Z13-8, was this diagram designed to go to 2 separate ammeters? I have
an engine monitor and was going to rely on that for my ammeter. Would it be
acceptable to place a single shunt at the battery? This would tell me the amount
of electrons coming and or going to/from the battery, but I am not sure this
information will help me in a 2 alternator situation. Thank you in advance
for your thoughts.
Justin
On Oct 27, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 01:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>>
>> >> Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a generic ford
voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator controller?
>>
>> Justin,
>>
>> If you try to use an automotive Ford regulator, my experience shows you'll find
that an attempt to shutdown that alternator in the conventional method, by
switching off the field power to the regulator, will instead result in a voltage
runaway, with the regulator powering itself from the alternator directly with
NO regulation of voltage. Once that happens, turning the field power back
on does NOT result in voltage control... Overvoltage continues. The only way to
restore normal regulation is powering down the alternator, which usually means
engine shutdown... Not handy.
>
> This is a condition limited to the Cessna's which
> do not tie "A" and "S" terminals together . . . a
> condition that's okay for the legacy electro-mechanical
> regulators and their solid-state clones.
>
> The commercial off-the shelf replacement regulators
> are sometimes wired a little differently within . . .
> which does not affect their performance in cars
> where alternators are not controlled. These not-
> quite-a-clone variants will indeed produce the
> behavior your describe . . . been there, done that.
>
> But when wired as depicted in Z-11 and others, the
> generic COTS regulators of all stripe are well
> behaved performers.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: B&C alternator question |
Is there a way to wire 2 shunts to a single Ammeter using a selector switch?
Yes - you could use a double-pole, double-throw, on-on toggle switch (DPDT, on-on)
to switch between 2 shunts. Keep in mind that both wires coming from
the shunt are hot B+ and need to be protected accordingly.
It is certainly acceptable to put the shunt at the battery, however in that position
one would normally use a zero-center ammeter and you would have to confirm
that your engine monitor could display that info properly.
If you put the shunt at the battery you would only need one to get satisfactory
current monitoring. (I'm assuming you're talking about a single battery system)
-Jeff
On Monday, October 27, 2014 9:53 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Is there a way to wire 2 shunts to a single Ammeter using a selector switch? Looking
at Z13-8, was this diagram designed to go to 2 separate ammeters? I have
an engine monitor and was going to rely on that for my ammeter. Would it be
acceptable to place a single shunt at the battery? This would tell me the amount
of electrons coming and or going to/from the battery, but I am not sure this
information will help me in a 2 alternator situation. Thank you in advance
for your thoughts.
Justin
On Oct 27, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 01:59 2014-10-27, you wrote:
>>
>> >> Is it acceptable to replace it with a BC410-H 20A and use a generic ford
voltage regulator? Or is it necessary to use a B&C alternator controller?
>>
>> Justin,
>>
>> If you try to use an automotive Ford regulator, my experience shows you'll find
that an attempt to shutdown that alternator in the conventional method, by
switching off the field power to the regulator, will instead result in a voltage
runaway, with the regulator powering itself from the alternator directly with
NO regulation of voltage. Once that happens, turning the field power back
on does NOT result in voltage control... Overvoltage continues. The only way to
restore normal regulation is powering down the alternator, which usually means
engine shutdown... Not handy.
>
> This is a condition limited to the Cessna's which
> do not tie "A" and "S" terminals together . . . a
> condition that's okay for the legacy electro-mechanical
> regulators and their solid-state clones.
>
> The commercial off-the shelf replacement regulators
> are sometimes wired a little differently within . . .
> which does not affect their performance in cars
> where alternators are not controlled. These not-
> quite-a-clone variants will indeed produce the
> behavior your describe . . . been there, done that.
>
> But when wired as depicted in Z-11 and others, the
> generic COTS regulators of all stripe are well
> behaved performers.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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