Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:50 AM - Re: lithium facts (Henador Titzoff)
2. 04:53 AM - John Deer PM Alternator (Justin Jones)
3. 05:25 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (rayj)
4. 05:49 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Cherie&Ken)
5. 06:57 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Justin Jones)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:40 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 04:52 PM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 05:27 PM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Cherie&Ken)
11. 08:26 PM - Re: Ammeter going haywire (Bill Bradburry)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: lithium facts |
Charlie,
I've read on this list of others having problems like what you describe below and
have even seen the very same problem on two other lists, non-Matt related.
If it works for many and not for a few, then it has to be related to those few,
including me. When Bob wrote me back, it confirmed exactly what you describe
below - something is wrong on my end of the pipe. I'm actively checking it
out and in fact, this email is a test email to see if a "fix" solves the problem.
Yes, IT works on weekends, cause I have them on the Essential bus. :)
do not archive
Henador Titzoff
>________________________________
> From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2014 9:45 PM
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts
>
>
>
>I would 2nd Raymond's observations.
>
>Over the last 6 or 8 months, I've sent numerous emails to various
>unrelated lists (not all Matt's) that never appeared as an email from
>the list back to me, but have seen others' replies to those emails. When
>checking the archives, the original email appears there.
>
>If you're saying that you didn't get your own email but saw a reply to
>it on the list, then it obviously went to the rest of the list, but
>wasn't returned to you by the (automated) list. Or, according to some
>googling, it might be related to your own ISP or email provider.
>
>FWIW,
>
>Charlie
>
>
>On 11/8/2014 4:34 PM, rayj wrote:
>>
>> Greetings Mr. Titzoff,
>>
>> I have been on this list for a number of years and have seen several
>> glitches that resulted in my and other's emails not showing up.
>> Sometimes it was something that the sender changed, sometimes it was a
>> change made by the sender's ISP, and sometimes it was something Matt
>> D. did. I don't really have any helpful suggestions, just wanted to
>> mention all the possible places where things can go awry. If I can be
>> of assistance in helping sort this out, please let me know.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> Raymond Julian
>> Kettle River, MN
>>
>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness,
>> honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in
>> our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed,
>> acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of
>> success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the
>> produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate
>> (1902-1968)
>>
>> On 11/08/2014 02:48 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>>>
>>> At 11:03 2014-11-08, you wrote:
>>>> This is rather unusual, Bob, that you responded to my email to the AE
>>>> list, yet my two previous emails have not made it to the list. If you
>>>> are filtering my emails to the list, then it's okay with me, but
>>>> you've never told me why you are filtering them. If you want me off
>>>> your list, why not simply take me off the email roster?
>>>>
>>>> Henador Titzoff
>>>
>>> I have no ability nor inclination to 'filter' anyone.
>>> I've had to ask several individuals to quit the list
>>> over the years but I've not advocated for any form
>>> of 'firewall' against anyone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | John Deer PM Alternator |
Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found
that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the
cost is around $110 usd.
Part numbers:
SE501843
2500A
2500B
APM0005
AM877557
10939
and many more
Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use.
Justin
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they
were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty,
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system.
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness,
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)
On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>
> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found
that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the
cost is around $110 usd.
>
> Part numbers:
>
> SE501843
> 2500A
> 2500B
> APM0005
> AM877557
> 10939
>
> and many more
>
> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use.
>
> Justin
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with
the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt
pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my
setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry when I
happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe they are
popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well.
Ken
On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote:
>
> When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they
> were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
>
> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness,
> honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in
> our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed,
> acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of
> success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the
> produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate
> (1902-1968)
>
> On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I
>> have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It
>> weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd.
>>
>> Part numbers:
>>
>> SE501843
>> 2500A
>> 2500B
>> APM0005
>> AM877557
>> 10939
>>
>> and many more
>>
>> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
Ken,
Are you running it on the front of a lycoming? I would like to find a way to drive
it from the rear vacuum pad. The b&c alternators are pricey in comparison.
> On Nov 9, 2014, at 16:47, Cherie&Ken <yellowduckduo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with the
matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt pulley which was
a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my setup. I replaced one of
the ball bearings that seemed dry when I happened to have the unit off at around
500 hours. I believe they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters
as well.
> Ken
>
>> On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote:
>>
>> When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they were using
the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also.
>>
>> Raymond Julian
>> Kettle River, MN
>>
>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding
and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those
traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest
are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the
first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel
laureate (1902-1968)
>>
>>> On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found
that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and
the cost is around $110 usd.
>>>
>>> Part numbers:
>>>
>>> SE501843
>>> 2500A
>>> 2500B
>>> APM0005
>>> AM877557
>>> 10939
>>>
>>> and many more
>>>
>>> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use.
>>>
>>> Justin
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
At 07:47 2014-11-09, you wrote:
>
>I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup
>with the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v
>belt pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm
>on my setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry
>when I happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe
>they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well.
Depending on the regulator technology, running a PM alternator
at very high speeds elevates risk to the electronics. Unlike
the wound-field machines where actual output votlage is limited
by the regulator, a PM alternator's output is proportional to
driving RPM. So running a PM alternator as much greater speeds
than they operate in their other-life on garden tractors
MIGHT prove challenging to the PM regulator.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
At 06:52 2014-11-09, you wrote:
><jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>
>Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I
>have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It
>weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd.
I think they have some 3-phase models that run
upwards of 30A.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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At 01:16 2014-11-08, you wrote:
I have been studying lithium batteries for several years, when and where I
can find information. I am not a chemist, or electrical battery engineer.
Just a guy who uses lots of lithium batteries. I use them to power large
radio control models aircraft. Common RC models these days use batteries
similar to the type you would use in a homebuilt airplane. The RC models I
fly typically use 4 cell, 14.4 nominal volt batteries. They are discharged
at the rate of about 30 to 150 amps and get totally drained in about 10
minutes. Us modelers have also found that stopping the discharge at about
20 to 30 percent capacity remaining helps keep the cells cool and increases
their life substantially.
An excellent narrative illustrating a substantial difference
in the way the aviation community uses batteries.
Unlike ALL motive power applications, the engine-crank/standby
applications use about 4% of the battery's capacity during
a few seconds per flight cycle . . . recharging is not expected
to complete in less than 30 minutes. But most important . . .
there are NO conditions under which our batteries are expected/
permitted to experience substantial temperature rise.
I suggest that the only 'connection' between the motive
power applications (from model airplanes up to plug-n-drive
forklifts and cars) and virtually all crank-and-sit applications
(most cars, trucks, and airplanes) is the word 'lithium'.
I have seen some lithium batteries catch fire in flight and the RC model
(normally fairly expensive - a few hundred dollars and normally built from
wood or plastic) goes down in flames.
I'm pretty sure these were not lithium-iron phosphate cells.
However, it is certain that they were HIGHLY stressed
compared to aviation expectations/design goals.
All of the multi cell lithium batteries I use are charged with each cell in
the battery pack getting charged individually from a very special charger
normally called a balancing charger. If any individual cell, or its
automatic charge circuitry goes
bad, the whole battery may fail in a mild manor (just quits working)
or catastrophic manor (fire).
All of this automatic cell monitoring is very expensive. Failures may be
dangerous, or just very expensive.
To be sure, the battery management systems (BMS) included
as part of the qualified True Blue products adds significant cost
to the battery. But be aware that "BMS" can mean anything
from a simple poly-fuse built into the end-cap of a cell
all the way up to a Cray-sized byte thrasher that monitors
cell voltage, input-output currents, temperatures, local
barometric pressure and phases of the moon.
The bottom line is if you want to switch to lithium batteries, you should
have your charge system designed by some highly qualified folks. Just
buying and installing a lithium battery can be very expensive at best, or
very dangerous at worst. Let the home builder beware. You can bet Boeing
spent some very large sums of money for that lithium battery that caught
fire in their 787 Dreamliner. Catastrophic failure is always possible no
matter how much you spend for hardware.
The Boeing experience has few more parallels to our design and
risk reduction goals than motive power applications but they're
not terribly germane. We can draw more on the lessons-learned by
Cessna and True-Blue than upon anything that happened in a 787
The manner in which we will use lithium will not stress the cells
hard at all. We're only going to charge to 50-60% of the
chemistry's potential. We only discharge to the tune of 4-5%
per flight cycle at most . . . the give 30 minutes to replace
that trivial taxation of store energy. Ideally, we NEVER deeply
discharge the battery. A totally different world than what is
expected of most lithium products in service today.
I work as a flight training systems instructor for a USAF squadron that
flies helicopters. For the past 50 years or so, the military forces used
Nickel Cadmium batteries in their aircraft. These batteries costs about 8
times as much as lead acid batteries, and required many man hours of service
and tests every 4 months. Recently we switched to sealed lead acid
batteries (Gel Cells). Now we pay about 5 times less than the NICADs costs,
and they don't need any regular maintenance. We just use them till they
don't come up to standards, and replace them. Much like you maintain your
car. A giant leap backwards, and we save lots of money and get better
reliability and performance, not to mention improved safety (those NICADs
had a tendency to melt down every now and then.) It doesn't get much better
than that. Of course, the quality and performance of sealed lead acid
batteries has improved by leaps and bounds over the last 50 years.
Exactly. Your story has been repeated many times over
the years. Skip Koss at Concorde can recite a number
of instances were Concorde SVLA products have successfully
replaced Ni-Cad in military and air-transport applications
for much improved cost of ownership benefits.
The sealed lead-acid battery took cost of
ownership a quantum jump in the right direction. However,
my own limited studies into the lithium opportunities
suggest that 'going-lithium' just to save weight while
giving up performance and risk benefits of SVLA may not
be justifiable in every owner-operator's play-book.
Watch this space . . .
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: lithium facts |
>Interesting.
>
>It remains difficult to know when generic "Li-ion" data applies and
>when specific data is needed for one of the cathode chemistries:
>"LCO", "LMO", "LFP", "NMC", "NCA", "LTO"
>see
>http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
>http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries
I note that in BU-204, the chart cites an LFP
charge limit of 3.6 volts . . . which is contrary
to the claims and practices of the market place
offerings of LFP cells . . . and not in agreement
with my tests either.
>What I am guessing at the moment:
>
>- the aging mechanisms and lifetime statistics are similar
> but some are more robust than others
agreed
>- the maximum cell voltage (4.2V) applies to all
agreed . . . I've not seen any literature that
argues with this with the exception noted above.
>- charging method and charging phases are similar
> but they have different capacity vs. final charging voltage curves
> charging LFP beyond 3.6V doesn't add much
How do you arrive at this? The cells that I'm
testing demonstrate a doubling of stored energy
by extending the charge beyond 3.6 volts. The
fact remains that incorporating an array of 4-cell
strings into lead-acid optimized power systems
will indeed limit charge voltage to something on
the order of 3.7 volts . . . and even if we COULD
charge the cell to 100%, it seems unlikely we can
always exploit that energy due to its elevated
delivery voltage.
> charging LCO beyond 3.8V to 4.2V adds most of the charge
> see http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-ion-charge-voltage.htm
>(the average force required to get an ion into a crystal location is
>different)
May well be. Don't have any of those cells to test and
besides, we really NEED the LPF characteristic that
tolerates heave discharge values along with the
lower levels of risk.
>- they have different (slow) discharge voltage curves (LFP flat at
>about 3.2V, LCO steadily decreasing from 3.9V)
Not sure that 'flatness' of discharge has any big
significance in our applications. The battery-only
loads in aircraft are functional from 15 down to 11
volts (which is right at the recommended limit for
discharging lithium in a 4-cell string).
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: John Deer PM Alternator |
Well no I'm running it with a dedicated 3-V belt on a Subaru slowed to
what I consider acceptable. The original single V "pulley" arrangement
is quite small. It is not feasible to drive this thing from a vacuum pad
IMO. It would entail a lot of machining and very likely put the engine
accessory drive at risk from torsional resonances.
Ken
On 09/11/2014 9:54 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> Are you running it on the front of a lycoming? I would like to find a way to
drive it from the rear vacuum pad. The b&c alternators are pricey in comparison.
>
>
>
>> On Nov 9, 2014, at 16:47, Cherie&Ken <yellowduckduo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with the
matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt pulley which was
a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my setup. I replaced one
of the ball bearings that seemed dry when I happened to have the unit off at around
500 hours. I believe they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters
as well.
>> Ken
>>
>>> On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they were using
the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>> Kettle River, MN
>>>
>>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding
and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those
traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and
self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the
first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel
laureate (1902-1968)
>>>
>>>> On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found
that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and
the cost is around $110 usd.
>>>>
>>>> Part numbers:
>>>>
>>>> SE501843
>>>> 2500A
>>>> 2500B
>>>> APM0005
>>>> AM877557
>>>> 10939
>>>>
>>>> and many more
>>>>
>>>> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use.
>>>>
>>>> Justin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Ammeter going haywire |
He has a Dynon Skyview in his panel and that is about it. The Skyview
captures and records some of his flights which can be seen on SavvyAnalysis.
I am putting some links to a few of his flights below. The Skyview gives
him a lot of info but if he turns if off he gets nothing. :>(
The ammeter shunt is connected between the master contactor/alternator fat
wire and the main buss. In this position I think it should be reading the
load on the main buss.
Below are some savvyanalysis data
The amps reversed from 8 amps to 3.5 amps with the old batt on 10/21/14.
https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/749440/37e6656c-5f2a-45cf-92c2-6231a494
60c
Here is a comparison: 10/27/14 (6 days later). Amps start at 4.0 (start of
engine) and drop for the rest of the flight to about 2.7 amps.
https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/753443/64b3c6d3-b471-492e-b01d-05124820
887c
This is the CRAZY ONE 11/03/14. Starts at 4.0 amps. Stays OK for 20 minutes.
Then a steady climb to 8.8 amps.???
This is with a new Batt. Maybe something is wrong with the new battery?
https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/759392/46b06ce6-9f83-4758-8b43-a247feb1
306f
BUT the next day, On 11/04/14 the NEW batt was acting NORMAL. After 40
minutes, Amp usage was only 4.0 amps. Not like the day before on 11/03/14.
https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/760125/2265e909-c367-4f30-9df4-26fd424f
d7f1
Todays flight (Thursday) 11/06/14. Amps climb from 3 amps to 4.1 amps over
an HOUR of flight.
https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/760853/ea55436a-65b6-4c60-809e-18240500
a91a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter going haywire
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 16:05 2014-11-06, you wrote:
Bob,
I am pretty sure that it is reading battery charge current. It is
too low to be alternator output or load I think.
He had been doing some work on the engine and had run the battery
down considerably trying to start it. On the next flight the amps
jumped up to 8 on start then gradually reduced to about 4 by the end
of the flight. The next flight the amps jumped up to 4 on start then
came down to about 2.5 by the end of the flight.
Somewhere in here his mechanic told him he needed a new battery so he
replaced the battery.
The next flight with the new battery the amps jumped up to about 4 on
start, then dropped to about 2 amps for about 10 minutes then started
the gradual climb to 9 amps over the next 40 minutes.
The next flight the amps jumped to about 3 on start then dropped to
about 2 for 10 minutes then slowly climbed to over 4 amps for the
next 40 minutes or so.
This now seems to be the standard.
Any ideas would be welcomed.
Bill
Those readings don't make any sense to me. If it's a battery
ammeter, then the current right after start . . . ESPECIALLY
with a badly depleted battery, would peak at some rather
large number . . . perhaps 20A or more immediately after
the alternator comes on line and tapers to zero over time.
These numbers are too low to be real . . .
First, we need to identify just what the ammeter is
reading. Does it have a zero centered needle with
minus readings to the left and plus readings to the
right? If so, sit in the cockpit with engine off
and turn EVERYTHING in the airplane ON and tell us
what the ammeter reads.
If the ammeter has zero at the left and full scale
at the right, then it's not a battery ammeter. Again,
with the engine not running and EVERYTHING in the
airplane turned ON, what does the ammeter read?
Finally, with the engine running and everything
in the airplane OFF except the alternator, what
does the ammeter read? Then turn everything ON
and take a reading (you need to do this at about
2000 rpm). Finally, if you turn the alternator
OFF while everything else in the airplane is ON,
what does the ammeter read.
In all three series of tests above, take voltmeter
readings at the bus also.
Unitl we first determin exactly what this ammeter
is attempting to tell us -AND- get some numbers
based on behavior, there's not enough data to
craft any sort of diagnosis.
By the way, what engine, alternator and battery
sizes are we talking about?
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
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