---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/09/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:50 AM - Re: lithium facts (Henador Titzoff) 2. 04:53 AM - John Deer PM Alternator (Justin Jones) 3. 05:25 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (rayj) 4. 05:49 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Cherie&Ken) 5. 06:57 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Justin Jones) 6. 08:31 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:40 AM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:06 AM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 04:52 PM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:27 PM - Re: John Deer PM Alternator (Cherie&Ken) 11. 08:26 PM - Re: Ammeter going haywire (Bill Bradburry) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:07 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts Charlie, I've read on this list of others having problems like what you describe below and have even seen the very same problem on two other lists, non-Matt related. If it works for many and not for a few, then it has to be related to those few, including me. When Bob wrote me back, it confirmed exactly what you describe below - something is wrong on my end of the pipe. I'm actively checking it out and in fact, this email is a test email to see if a "fix" solves the problem. Yes, IT works on weekends, cause I have them on the Essential bus. :) do not archive Henador Titzoff >________________________________ > From: Charlie England >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2014 9:45 PM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > > >I would 2nd Raymond's observations. > >Over the last 6 or 8 months, I've sent numerous emails to various >unrelated lists (not all Matt's) that never appeared as an email from >the list back to me, but have seen others' replies to those emails. When >checking the archives, the original email appears there. > >If you're saying that you didn't get your own email but saw a reply to >it on the list, then it obviously went to the rest of the list, but >wasn't returned to you by the (automated) list. Or, according to some >googling, it might be related to your own ISP or email provider. > >FWIW, > >Charlie > > >On 11/8/2014 4:34 PM, rayj wrote: >> >> Greetings Mr. Titzoff, >> >> I have been on this list for a number of years and have seen several >> glitches that resulted in my and other's emails not showing up. >> Sometimes it was something that the sender changed, sometimes it was a >> change made by the sender's ISP, and sometimes it was something Matt >> D. did. I don't really have any helpful suggestions, just wanted to >> mention all the possible places where things can go awry. If I can be >> of assistance in helping sort this out, please let me know. >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, >> honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in >> our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, >> acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of >> success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the >> produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate >> (1902-1968) >> >> On 11/08/2014 02:48 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> >>> At 11:03 2014-11-08, you wrote: >>>> This is rather unusual, Bob, that you responded to my email to the AE >>>> list, yet my two previous emails have not made it to the list. If you >>>> are filtering my emails to the list, then it's okay with me, but >>>> you've never told me why you are filtering them. If you want me off >>>> your list, why not simply take me off the email roster? >>>> >>>> Henador Titzoff >>> >>> I have no ability nor inclination to 'filter' anyone. >>> I've had to ask several individuals to quit the list >>> over the years but I've not advocated for any form >>> of 'firewall' against anyone. >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:16 AM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. Part numbers: SE501843 2500A 2500B APM0005 AM877557 10939 and many more Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use. Justin ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:10 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote: > > Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. > > Part numbers: > > SE501843 > 2500A > 2500B > APM0005 > AM877557 > 10939 > > and many more > > Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use. > > Justin > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:45 AM PST US From: Cherie&Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry when I happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well. Ken On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote: > > When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they > were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, > honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in > our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, > acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of > success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the > produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate > (1902-1968) > > On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote: >> >> >> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I >> have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It >> weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. >> >> Part numbers: >> >> SE501843 >> 2500A >> 2500B >> APM0005 >> AM877557 >> 10939 >> >> and many more >> >> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use. >> >> Justin >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator From: Justin Jones Ken, Are you running it on the front of a lycoming? I would like to find a way to drive it from the rear vacuum pad. The b&c alternators are pricey in comparison. > On Nov 9, 2014, at 16:47, Cherie&Ken wrote: > > > I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry when I happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well. > Ken > >> On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote: >> >> When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also. >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN >> >> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >> >>> On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote: >>> >>> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. >>> >>> Part numbers: >>> >>> SE501843 >>> 2500A >>> 2500B >>> APM0005 >>> AM877557 >>> 10939 >>> >>> and many more >>> >>> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use. >>> >>> Justin > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator At 07:47 2014-11-09, you wrote: > >I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup >with the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v >belt pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm >on my setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry >when I happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe >they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well. Depending on the regulator technology, running a PM alternator at very high speeds elevates risk to the electronics. Unlike the wound-field machines where actual output votlage is limited by the regulator, a PM alternator's output is proportional to driving RPM. So running a PM alternator as much greater speeds than they operate in their other-life on garden tractors MIGHT prove challenging to the PM regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator At 06:52 2014-11-09, you wrote: > > >Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I >have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It >weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. I think they have some 3-phase models that run upwards of 30A. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts At 01:16 2014-11-08, you wrote: I have been studying lithium batteries for several years, when and where I can find information. I am not a chemist, or electrical battery engineer. Just a guy who uses lots of lithium batteries. I use them to power large radio control models aircraft. Common RC models these days use batteries similar to the type you would use in a homebuilt airplane. The RC models I fly typically use 4 cell, 14.4 nominal volt batteries. They are discharged at the rate of about 30 to 150 amps and get totally drained in about 10 minutes. Us modelers have also found that stopping the discharge at about 20 to 30 percent capacity remaining helps keep the cells cool and increases their life substantially. An excellent narrative illustrating a substantial difference in the way the aviation community uses batteries. Unlike ALL motive power applications, the engine-crank/standby applications use about 4% of the battery's capacity during a few seconds per flight cycle . . . recharging is not expected to complete in less than 30 minutes. But most important . . . there are NO conditions under which our batteries are expected/ permitted to experience substantial temperature rise. I suggest that the only 'connection' between the motive power applications (from model airplanes up to plug-n-drive forklifts and cars) and virtually all crank-and-sit applications (most cars, trucks, and airplanes) is the word 'lithium'. I have seen some lithium batteries catch fire in flight and the RC model (normally fairly expensive - a few hundred dollars and normally built from wood or plastic) goes down in flames. I'm pretty sure these were not lithium-iron phosphate cells. However, it is certain that they were HIGHLY stressed compared to aviation expectations/design goals. All of the multi cell lithium batteries I use are charged with each cell in the battery pack getting charged individually from a very special charger normally called a balancing charger. If any individual cell, or its automatic charge circuitry goes bad, the whole battery may fail in a mild manor (just quits working) or catastrophic manor (fire). All of this automatic cell monitoring is very expensive. Failures may be dangerous, or just very expensive. To be sure, the battery management systems (BMS) included as part of the qualified True Blue products adds significant cost to the battery. But be aware that "BMS" can mean anything from a simple poly-fuse built into the end-cap of a cell all the way up to a Cray-sized byte thrasher that monitors cell voltage, input-output currents, temperatures, local barometric pressure and phases of the moon. The bottom line is if you want to switch to lithium batteries, you should have your charge system designed by some highly qualified folks. Just buying and installing a lithium battery can be very expensive at best, or very dangerous at worst. Let the home builder beware. You can bet Boeing spent some very large sums of money for that lithium battery that caught fire in their 787 Dreamliner. Catastrophic failure is always possible no matter how much you spend for hardware. The Boeing experience has few more parallels to our design and risk reduction goals than motive power applications but they're not terribly germane. We can draw more on the lessons-learned by Cessna and True-Blue than upon anything that happened in a 787 The manner in which we will use lithium will not stress the cells hard at all. We're only going to charge to 50-60% of the chemistry's potential. We only discharge to the tune of 4-5% per flight cycle at most . . . the give 30 minutes to replace that trivial taxation of store energy. Ideally, we NEVER deeply discharge the battery. A totally different world than what is expected of most lithium products in service today. I work as a flight training systems instructor for a USAF squadron that flies helicopters. For the past 50 years or so, the military forces used Nickel Cadmium batteries in their aircraft. These batteries costs about 8 times as much as lead acid batteries, and required many man hours of service and tests every 4 months. Recently we switched to sealed lead acid batteries (Gel Cells). Now we pay about 5 times less than the NICADs costs, and they don't need any regular maintenance. We just use them till they don't come up to standards, and replace them. Much like you maintain your car. A giant leap backwards, and we save lots of money and get better reliability and performance, not to mention improved safety (those NICADs had a tendency to melt down every now and then.) It doesn't get much better than that. Of course, the quality and performance of sealed lead acid batteries has improved by leaps and bounds over the last 50 years. Exactly. Your story has been repeated many times over the years. Skip Koss at Concorde can recite a number of instances were Concorde SVLA products have successfully replaced Ni-Cad in military and air-transport applications for much improved cost of ownership benefits. The sealed lead-acid battery took cost of ownership a quantum jump in the right direction. However, my own limited studies into the lithium opportunities suggest that 'going-lithium' just to save weight while giving up performance and risk benefits of SVLA may not be justifiable in every owner-operator's play-book. Watch this space . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts >Interesting. > >It remains difficult to know when generic "Li-ion" data applies and >when specific data is needed for one of the cathode chemistries: >"LCO", "LMO", "LFP", "NMC", "NCA", "LTO" >see >http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion >http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries I note that in BU-204, the chart cites an LFP charge limit of 3.6 volts . . . which is contrary to the claims and practices of the market place offerings of LFP cells . . . and not in agreement with my tests either. >What I am guessing at the moment: > >- the aging mechanisms and lifetime statistics are similar > but some are more robust than others agreed >- the maximum cell voltage (4.2V) applies to all agreed . . . I've not seen any literature that argues with this with the exception noted above. >- charging method and charging phases are similar > but they have different capacity vs. final charging voltage curves > charging LFP beyond 3.6V doesn't add much How do you arrive at this? The cells that I'm testing demonstrate a doubling of stored energy by extending the charge beyond 3.6 volts. The fact remains that incorporating an array of 4-cell strings into lead-acid optimized power systems will indeed limit charge voltage to something on the order of 3.7 volts . . . and even if we COULD charge the cell to 100%, it seems unlikely we can always exploit that energy due to its elevated delivery voltage. > charging LCO beyond 3.8V to 4.2V adds most of the charge > see http://www.powerstream.com/lithuim-ion-charge-voltage.htm >(the average force required to get an ion into a crystal location is >different) May well be. Don't have any of those cells to test and besides, we really NEED the LPF characteristic that tolerates heave discharge values along with the lower levels of risk. >- they have different (slow) discharge voltage curves (LFP flat at >about 3.2V, LCO steadily decreasing from 3.9V) Not sure that 'flatness' of discharge has any big significance in our applications. The battery-only loads in aircraft are functional from 15 down to 11 volts (which is right at the recommended limit for discharging lithium in a 4-cell string). Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:10 PM PST US From: Cherie&Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: John Deer PM Alternator Well no I'm running it with a dedicated 3-V belt on a Subaru slowed to what I consider acceptable. The original single V "pulley" arrangement is quite small. It is not feasible to drive this thing from a vacuum pad IMO. It would entail a lot of machining and very likely put the engine accessory drive at risk from torsional resonances. Ken On 09/11/2014 9:54 AM, Justin Jones wrote: > > Ken, > > Are you running it on the front of a lycoming? I would like to find a way to drive it from the rear vacuum pad. The b&c alternators are pricey in comparison. > > > >> On Nov 9, 2014, at 16:47, Cherie&Ken wrote: >> >> >> I've got 600 hours on one of those running one side of a Z-14 setup with the matching J-Deere regulator. I did convert it to a multi-v belt pulley which was a bit of a challenge. It Turns 8 to 10,000 rpm on my setup. I replaced one of the ball bearings that seemed dry when I happened to have the unit off at around 500 hours. I believe they are popular with the Corvair and VW converters as well. >> Ken >> >>> On 09/11/2014 8:22 AM, rayj wrote: >>> >>> When I was following the Corvair aircraft engine building lists they were using the JD item on the builds. You may find some info there also. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN >>> >>> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) >>> >>>> On 11/09/2014 06:52 AM, Justin Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> Has anyone used the John deer PM alternator? With some research, I have found that it is 20A and requires an external regulator. It weighs 3.5 lbs and the cost is around $110 usd. >>>> >>>> Part numbers: >>>> >>>> SE501843 >>>> 2500A >>>> 2500B >>>> APM0005 >>>> AM877557 >>>> 10939 >>>> >>>> and many more >>>> >>>> Seems it may be a good lightweight alternator for primary or backup use. >>>> >>>> Justin >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:25 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter going haywire He has a Dynon Skyview in his panel and that is about it. The Skyview captures and records some of his flights which can be seen on SavvyAnalysis. I am putting some links to a few of his flights below. The Skyview gives him a lot of info but if he turns if off he gets nothing. :>( The ammeter shunt is connected between the master contactor/alternator fat wire and the main buss. In this position I think it should be reading the load on the main buss. Below are some savvyanalysis data The amps reversed from 8 amps to 3.5 amps with the old batt on 10/21/14. https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/749440/37e6656c-5f2a-45cf-92c2-6231a494 60c Here is a comparison: 10/27/14 (6 days later). Amps start at 4.0 (start of engine) and drop for the rest of the flight to about 2.7 amps. https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/753443/64b3c6d3-b471-492e-b01d-05124820 887c This is the CRAZY ONE 11/03/14. Starts at 4.0 amps. Stays OK for 20 minutes. Then a steady climb to 8.8 amps.??? This is with a new Batt. Maybe something is wrong with the new battery? https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/759392/46b06ce6-9f83-4758-8b43-a247feb1 306f BUT the next day, On 11/04/14 the NEW batt was acting NORMAL. After 40 minutes, Amp usage was only 4.0 amps. Not like the day before on 11/03/14. https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/760125/2265e909-c367-4f30-9df4-26fd424f d7f1 Todays flight (Thursday) 11/06/14. Amps climb from 3 amps to 4.1 amps over an HOUR of flight. https://www.savvyanalysis.com/flight/760853/ea55436a-65b6-4c60-809e-18240500 a91a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 9:41 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter going haywire At 16:05 2014-11-06, you wrote: Bob, I am pretty sure that it is reading battery charge current. It is too low to be alternator output or load I think. He had been doing some work on the engine and had run the battery down considerably trying to start it. On the next flight the amps jumped up to 8 on start then gradually reduced to about 4 by the end of the flight. The next flight the amps jumped up to 4 on start then came down to about 2.5 by the end of the flight. Somewhere in here his mechanic told him he needed a new battery so he replaced the battery. The next flight with the new battery the amps jumped up to about 4 on start, then dropped to about 2 amps for about 10 minutes then started the gradual climb to 9 amps over the next 40 minutes. The next flight the amps jumped to about 3 on start then dropped to about 2 for 10 minutes then slowly climbed to over 4 amps for the next 40 minutes or so. This now seems to be the standard. Any ideas would be welcomed. Bill Those readings don't make any sense to me. If it's a battery ammeter, then the current right after start . . . ESPECIALLY with a badly depleted battery, would peak at some rather large number . . . perhaps 20A or more immediately after the alternator comes on line and tapers to zero over time. These numbers are too low to be real . . . First, we need to identify just what the ammeter is reading. Does it have a zero centered needle with minus readings to the left and plus readings to the right? If so, sit in the cockpit with engine off and turn EVERYTHING in the airplane ON and tell us what the ammeter reads. If the ammeter has zero at the left and full scale at the right, then it's not a battery ammeter. Again, with the engine not running and EVERYTHING in the airplane turned ON, what does the ammeter read? Finally, with the engine running and everything in the airplane OFF except the alternator, what does the ammeter read? Then turn everything ON and take a reading (you need to do this at about 2000 rpm). Finally, if you turn the alternator OFF while everything else in the airplane is ON, what does the ammeter read. In all three series of tests above, take voltmeter readings at the bus also. Unitl we first determin exactly what this ammeter is attempting to tell us -AND- get some numbers based on behavior, there's not enough data to craft any sort of diagnosis. By the way, what engine, alternator and battery sizes are we talking about? Bob . . . Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.