AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Thu 11/13/14


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 08:58 AM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 09:09 AM - Re: lithium facts (argoldman@aol.com)
     3. 10:03 AM - Re: lithium facts (John Tipton)
     4. 10:15 AM - Re: lithium facts (argoldman@aol.com)
     5. 10:31 AM - Re: lithium facts (Lyle Peterson)
     6. 10:34 AM - Re: lithium facts (John Tipton)
     7. 10:41 AM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 11:00 AM - Re: sore finger (Deems Herring)
     9. 11:09 AM - Re: lithium facts (Ken Ryan)
    10. 11:51 AM - Re: lithium facts (B Tomm)
    11. 12:22 PM - Re: lithium facts (j. davis)
    12. 12:47 PM - Re: lithium facts (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    13. 02:23 PM - Re: lithium facts (A R Goldman)
    14. 02:53 PM - Re: lithium facts (Rene)
    15. 07:30 PM - Re: lithium facts (Jeff Luckey)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 08:58:13 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or batteries) of EQUAL weight. Okay, consider the PC680 which claims to offer 45 minutes endurance when loaded to 15.6 amps for an energy delivery value of 130 Watt-hours. Emacs! Okay, let's do a back-of-the-envelope . . . (actually, restaurant napkins are my favorite these days - don't carry much mail around with me. Best yet, I've discovered a ball-point pen that writes on grade Z napkins without tearing them. I hand them out to my cohorts in brainstorming at lunch!) . . . back of the napkin sanity check on a DIY replacement for a PC-680: Referring to the specs for an A123, 25560 cell, * lifepo4 CHEMISTRY * Nominal voltage: 3.3V * Nominal capacity: 2.3Ah * Core cell weight: 70 grams * 65mm tall, 26mm diameter (same diameter as a C battery) * Internal impedance: (1kHz AC) 8 m typical * Typical fast charge current: 10A to 3.6V CCCV * 70A continuous discharge * 120A, 10 sec pulse discharge * Cycle life at 10C discharge, 100% DOD: over 1,000 cycles . . . they will allow very high discharge currents with a relatively flat discharge curve so we can calculate each cell to contain about 7.5 watt-hours of energy. To approximate the energy content of the PC680, we would need 130/7.5 or 17 cells. We are obliged to configure these cells in series strings of four so a 4 x 4 array of 16 cells gets us 120 watt-hours. Okay, right in the ballpark. Further, the 70A continuous discharge rating says the 4 parallel strings would grunt a 280A cranking current without breathing hard. Higher momentary loads are obviously not out of the question. Okay, the 4 x 4 x 26650 array would weigh in at about 1200gm plus another 400 for a case, which gives us 1600gm (3.5 pounds with no battery management system). Okay, I just put the EarthX ETX36 . . . Model: ETX36D Nominal Operational Voltage . . 13.3 V Ah (Lead-acid equivalent) . . . 36 Ah (actual) . . . . . . . . . . 12 (.5C rate) . . . Reserve Capacity . . . . . . . 27 min. Pulse Crank Amps (PCA) . . . . 680A (3 sec @ 25 =B0C, voltage >9V) Cold Crank Amps (CCA) . . . . . 405A (modified SAE, 3 sec@ 0=B0F, voltage >7.2V) Continuous Discharge Amps . . . 100A Standard Charge Voltage . . . . 13.9 - 14.6 V Maximum Charge Voltage . . . . 15 V Recommended Charge Amps . . . . 1 - 15A Max Charge Amps . . . . . . . . 60A (from vehicle charging system) Life (Charge cycles, 80% deep of discharge) 4000 cycles @ 1C discharge rate, 25=B0C 2000 cycles @10C discharge rate, 25=B0C Life (Years) . . . . . . . . . 8 Years Weight . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.9 lb. (1.8Kg) Dimensions ETX36D . . . . . . . 6.9 x 3.4 x 6.1 inches Environmental Ratings Resistance to water intrusion . IP 66 (Hi Pressure wash) Operating Temperature . . . . 30 =B0C to +60 =B0C Storage Temperature . . . . . .-40 =B0C to +70 =B0C . . . on a 15A discharge with a data acquisition system attached . . . let's see what we get. Emacs! This product has a built-in BMS that disconnects the output if the terminal voltage drops below a safe value for the battery . . . in this case, 10.6 volts. There was a 10x multiplier in the load current so the readings across the bottom should be multiplied by 10. This particular test cycle terminated at 142 watt-hours . . . right in the same ball-park as PC-680 published data and our back-of-the-napkin DIY analysis for a 4 x 4 array of 26650 cells. = So from the perspective of evaluating available energy, it appears that the ETX-36 series batteries are a drop-in replacement for the PC-680. Both batteries demonstrate performance in the 12AH class with a 15A load. You get a weight differential of 14.8 - 3.9 = 10.9 pounds and a price differential of 350 - 110 = $240. In the TC aircraft world, most manufacturer's would be delighted to pay $24/lb for empty weight reduction. In the OBAM aircraft world, that 10 pounds is not so 'valuable' . . . how many flights have you re-configured because you were 10# "over gross". Now, if the lithium battery could demonstrate a service life of say 3x that of the SVLA, then cost per operating hour is a wash and the weight savings are 'free'. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:09:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: argoldman@aol.com
    Greetings Rick, and all,=0A=0AMy builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, and I too am to laz y to do the math.=0A=0AIn terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the different types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with that,also. My understandi ng of electronics (gleaned through reading stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is that it takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm stil l trying to figure out watts that all about.=0A=0AI do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored p ower in a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my g izmos willl stop gizzing and give my owner either a big "X " across the screen or false readings, or worse yet, my he art will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt var ious liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at which that would occur.=0A=0AI remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid Devi ces 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This dev ice was actually quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and attempt to correct that with ailero n input. fortunately I discovered this on the ground in init ial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted time) dete rmined that to be the problem. In the air, with alternators alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternat ed state, I would probably still be up there flying in inc reasingly tighter circles.=0A=0AI believe his new plane will ope rate properly until much lower voltage (assuming enough amps).=0A =0AIf we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to this, we can get some so rt of data that would indicate a more meaningful comparison between the two chemistries.=0A=0AThe reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous post was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 batteri es could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs.=0A=0AThe flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I may not know watt I am talking about.=0A=0A=0A =0ABravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and pe rhaps great-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batter ies certainly had advantages, specifically with respect to the weight.=0A=0AYour battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than aircraft usage as you, as you know, sta rt out with a relatively fully charged battery group (at lea st at the start of the day) and in effect deep cycle the pack routinely.=0A=0AIn aircraft, because in most cases the b attery, after recovering from the start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing.=0A=0AI f I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dua l alternators now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I would like to know if my EFI, Ele cronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no engine driven pump) a nd a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function for a while (and how long that while might be).=0A=0Athanks for your reply=0A=0AAerocanard 948RG=0A=0Arich=0A=0A =0A=0A-----Original Mes sage-----=0AFrom: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu>=0ATo: aeroelectric -list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3: 31 pm=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts=0A=0A=0A--> Ae roElectric-List message posted by: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.ed u>=0A=0AOn 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote:=0A> So le ts take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compa re a=0A> lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or=0A> batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I la st with each before the=0A> energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just=0A> buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals=0A> I a m going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic=0A> settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that=0A> system.=0AEqual weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. =0AHere's an ane cdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was =0Aconve rted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They =0Aweighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles.=0A=0AI replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only =0Aweighing 347 pounds. The truck w ill go about 50 miles and it does it in =0Aa much more spritely manner.=0A=0AThere are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that =0Avoltage of lead-acid batteries decre ases linearly with state of charge =0A(SOC). From roughly 12.6 5 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely =0Aempty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start =0Ato behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you =0Adon't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts.=0A=0ALiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together =0Awill be at roughly 13.2 volt s full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly =0Adropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that =0A drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery wil l look full =0Afor the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity =0Aof the battery.=0A=0A--Rick=0A=0A =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:03:09 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Hi Guys Who is now getting bored with this thread John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings Rick, and all, > > My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, and I too am to lazy to do the math. > > In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the diff erent types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with that,also. My understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is that it takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying to figure out watts that all about. > > I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored power i n a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl stop gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false readings, or w orse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt variou s liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at which that would occur. > > I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid Device s 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was actually q uite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and attempt to c orrect that with aileron input. fortunately I discovered this on the ground i n initial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted time) determined t hat to be the problem. In the air, with alternators alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighter circles. > > I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage (as suming enough amps). > > If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to thi s, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful compar ison between the two chemistries. > > The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous pos t was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 batter ies could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs. > > The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but onl y if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I may n ot know watt I am talking about. > > > > Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps great-grand children thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certainly had advantages, specifically with respect to the weight. > > Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than a ircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in effect deep cycle t he pack routinely. > > In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from the s tart, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the important t hing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This is a one ti me semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. > > If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternators now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I wou ld like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no engin e driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function for a w hile (and how long that while might be). > > thanks for your reply > > Aerocanard 948RG > > rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > u> > > On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a > > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or > > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the > > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just > > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals > > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic > > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that > > system. > Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. > Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was > converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They > weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. > > I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only > weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in > a much more spritely manner. > > There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that > voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge > (SOC). =46rom roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely > empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start > to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you > don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. > > LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together > will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly > dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that > drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full > for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity = ========================== (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > lectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www. buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========================= ==roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? AeroElec======================= ====; http://forums.================ ========================== > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:15:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: argoldman@aol.com
    John, with all due respect, If you are bored, don't read i t. Just perhaps the conversation may awaken other thoughts fro m others, not as bored.=0A=0AYou may go back to sleep now.=0A =0ARich=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: J ohn Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list <aeroelect ric-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 12:05 pm=0ASubject : Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts=0A=0A=0A=0AHi Guys=0A=0A=0AWho is now getting bored with this thread=0A=0A=0AJohn=0A=0ASent from my iPad=0A=0A=0A ----x--O--x----=0A=0A=0AOn 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0AGreetings Rick, and all,=0A=0AMy builder is familiar with the concepts and sugges tions in your post, and I too am to lazy to do the mat h.=0A=0AIn terms of the voltage drop during discharge being di fferent for the different types of batteries, my owner is al so quite famaliar with that,also. My understanding of electronic s (gleaned through reading stuff--very difficult without my land ing light lenses attached, is that it takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying to f igure out watts that all about.=0A=0AI do know that at a c ertain time in the deminishment of the stored power in a b attery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl s top gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false readings, or worse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt various liquids ina ppropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at which that would occur.=0A=0AI remember in a sibling tha t my builder also built, he had a Navaid Devices 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was actua lly quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and attempt to correct that with aileron input. fortu nately I discovered this on the ground in initial testing an d after extensive testing (and wasted time) determined that to be the problem. In the air, with alternators alternating, n o problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighte r circles.=0A=0AI believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage (assuming enough amps).=0A=0AIf we defi ne a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to this, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful comparison between the t wo chemistries.=0A=0AThe reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous post was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 batteries could b e "equivalent" for my electrical needs.=0A=0AThe flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircr aft I may not know watt I am talking about.=0A=0A=0A=0ABravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps gre at-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certa inly had advantages, specifically with respect to the weight.=0A =0AYour battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite d ifferent than aircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully charged battery group (at least at t he start of the day) and in effect deep cycle the pack r outinely.=0A=0AIn aircraft, because in most cases the battery, a fter recovering from the start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This is a one t ime semi emergency problem, not a routine thing.=0A=0AIf I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternato rs now which would really change my battery specs to primari ly starting) I would like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ign ition, electric fuel pumps (no engine driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function for a while (and how long that while might be).=0A=0Athanks for your reply =0A=0AAerocanard 948RG=0A=0Arich=0A=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list <aer oelectric-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm=0ASu bject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts=0A=0A=0A--> AeroElectric-L ist message posted by: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu>=0A=0AOn 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote:=0A> So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a=0A> le ad acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or=0A > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the=0A> energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just=0A> buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals=0A> I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic=0A> s ettings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max w ith that=0A> system.=0AEqual weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. =0AHere's an anecdotal ans wer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was =0Aconverted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They =0A weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles .=0A=0AI replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only =0Aweighing 347 pounds. The truck will go abo ut 50 miles and it does it in =0Aa much more spritely ma nner.=0A=0AThere are some interesting considerations for your test . One is that =0Avoltage of lead-acid batteries decreases line arly with state of charge =0A(SOC). From roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely =0Aempty. At what poin t in that slope, though, will your electronics start =0Ato b ehave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you =0Adon't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12 .24 volts.=0A=0ALiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together =0Awill be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly =0Adropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that =0Adrop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will loo k full =0Afor the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity ================ =========== (And Get S ome AWESOME FREE Gifts!)=0Alectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbook s.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A======== ===================roElectric-List" targ et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec======== ===================; http://forums.== =========================== ===============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D -- Please Support Your Lists This Month 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:31:50 AM PST US
    From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap@centurylink.net>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    Hi, I, for one, am most certainly not getting bored with this thread. It just takes some time to separate the wheat from the chaff. -- Lyle Sent from my Gateway E4610D desktop On 11/13/2014 12:09 PM, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > John, with all due respect, If you are bored, don't read it. Just > perhaps the conversation may awaken other thoughts from others, not as > bored. > > You may go back to sleep now. > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > Hi Guys > > Who is now getting bored with this thread > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com > <mailto:argoldman@aol.com> wrote: > >> Greetings Rick, and all, >> >> My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your >> post, and I too am to lazy to do the math. >> >> In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the >> different types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with >> that,also. My understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading >> stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is >> that it takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm >> still trying to figure out watts that all about. >> >> I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored >> power in a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos >> willl stop gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the >> screen or false readings, or worse yet, my heart will beat >> incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt various liquids >> inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at >> which that would occur. >> >> I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid >> Devices 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device >> was actually quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a >> turn and attempt to correct that with aileron input. fortunately I >> discovered this on the ground in initial testing and after extensive >> testing (and wasted time) determined that to be the problem. In the >> air, with alternators alternating, no problem, however if they went >> into an alternated state, I would probably still be up there flying >> in increasingly tighter circles. >> >> I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower >> voltage (assuming enough amps). >> >> If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know >> what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each >> sample to this, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a >> more meaningful comparison between the two chemistries. >> >> The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my >> previous post was to equal the field from which the appropriate >> weight of LiFePo4 batteries could be "equivalent" for my electrical >> needs. >> >> The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, >> but only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an >> aircraft I may not know watt I am talking about. >> >> >> >> Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps >> great-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries >> certainly had advantages, specifically with respect to the weight. >> >> Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different >> than aircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively >> fully charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in >> effect deep cycle the pack routinely. >> >> In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from >> the start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and >> the important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator >> quits. This is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. >> >> If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual >> alternators now which would really change my battery specs to >> primarily starting) I would like to know if my EFI, Elecronic >> ignition, electric fuel pumps (no engine driven pump) and a com and >> possibly a nav radio, all could function for a while (and how long >> that while might be). >> >> thanks for your reply >> >> Aerocanard 948RG >> >> rich >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu <mailto:richard.beebe@yale.edu>> >> To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>> >> Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts >> >> >> On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM,ARGOLDMAN@aol.com <mailto:ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote: >> > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a >> > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or >> > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the >> > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just >> > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals >> > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic >> > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that >> > system. >> Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. >> Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was >> converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They >> weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. >> >> I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only >> weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in >> a much more spritely manner. >> >> There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that >> voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge >> (SOC). From roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely >> empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start >> to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you >> don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. >> >> LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together >> will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly >> dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that >> drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full >> for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity =========================== (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) >> lectricwww.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ===========================roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec===========================; <http://www.aeroelectric.com>http://forums.========================================== >> >> >> >> <http://forums.matronics.com> >> <http://forums.matronics.com> >> <http://forums.matronics.com> >> <http://forums.matronics.com><http://forums.matronics.com> >> * >> >> >> * <http://forums.matronics.com> > <http://forums.matronics.com> > **www.aeroelec D================================================33D================================================================================================= > > ** > ** > ** > * > * > > > * > *


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:34:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    It's just that my finger is getting sore, with all the deleting Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 13 Nov 2014, at 06:09 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > > John, with all due respect, If you are bored, don't read it. Just perhaps t he conversation may awaken other thoughts from others, not as bored. > > You may go back to sleep now. > > Rich > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > Hi Guys > > Who is now getting bored with this thread > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > >> Greetings Rick, and all, >> >> My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, an d I too am to lazy to do the math. >> >> In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the dif ferent types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with that,also. M y understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading stuff--very difficul t without my landing light lenses attached, is that it takes a combination o f voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying to figure out watts tha t all about. >> >> I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored power i n a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl stop gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false readings, or w orse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt variou s liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at which that would occur. >> >> I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid Devic es 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was actually q uite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and attempt to c orrect that with aileron input. fortunately I discovered this on the ground i n initial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted time) determined t hat to be the problem. In the air, with alternators alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighter circles. >> >> I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage (a ssuming enough amps). >> >> If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to thi s, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful compar ison between the two chemistries. >> >> The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous po st was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 batte ries could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs. >> >> The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but on ly if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I may n ot know watt I am talking about. >> >> >> >> Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps great-gran dchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certainly had advantages , specifically with respect to the weight. >> >> Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than a ircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in effect deep cycle t he pack routinely. >> >> In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from the start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the importan t thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. >> >> If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternator s now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I wo uld like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no engi ne driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function for a while (and how long that while might be). >> >> thanks for your reply >> >> Aerocanard 948RG >> >> rich >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu> >> To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> >> Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts >> du> >> >> On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: >> > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a >> > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or >> > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the >> > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just >> > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals >> > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic >> > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that >> > system. >> Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. >> Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was >> converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They >> weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. >> >> I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only >> weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in >> a much more spritely manner. >> >> There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that >> voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge >> (SOC). =46rom roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely >> empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start >> to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you >> don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. >> >> LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together >> will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly >> dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that >> drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full >> for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity = ========================== (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) >> lectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www .buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========================= ==roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? AeroElec======================= ====; http://forums.================ ========================== >> >> >> > www.aeroelec D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=33D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:41:06 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    At 10:54 2014-11-13, you wrote: >So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare >a lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or >batteries) of EQUAL weight. I see I blew the original premise . . . EQUAL weight. Okay, stack 4 ETX-36 batteries in for approximately the same weight as a PC-680. At 4x the stored energy of the PC-680 at the 15A load rate you can fly for 3+ hours while supporting the 180W load. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:00:26 AM PST US
    From: Deems Herring <dsleepy47@hotmail.com>
    Subject: RE: sore finger
    Set your email client to automatically delete emails containing "lithium fa cts" or just "lithium" in the subject and you never have to see them again. Deems Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts From: jmtipton@btopenworld.com It's just that my finger is getting sore=2C with all the deleting Sent from my iPad


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:09:58 AM PST US
    From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    Continue lithium discussions. Very interesting. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:32 AM, John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It's just that my finger is getting sore, with all the deleting > > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 06:09 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > > John, with all due respect, If you are bored, don't read it. Just perhaps > the conversation may awaken other thoughts from others, not as bored. > > You may go back to sleep now. > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > Hi Guys > > Who is now getting bored with this thread > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings Rick, and all, > > My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, an d > I too am to lazy to do the math. > > In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the > different types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with > that,also. My understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading > stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is that i t > takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying > to figure out watts that all about. > > I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored power > in a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl stop > gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false > readings, or worse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I > may squirt various liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do n ot > know the level at which that would occur. > > I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid > Devices 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was > actually quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn an d > attempt to correct that with aileron input. fortunately I discovered this > on the ground in initial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted > time) determined that to be the problem. In the air, with alternators > alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I > would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighter circles. > > I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage > (assuming enough amps). > > If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I > am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to > this, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful > comparison between the two chemistries. > > The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous > post was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 > batteries could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs. > > The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but > only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I > may not know watt I am talking about. > > > Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps > great-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certainly h ad > advantages, specifically with respect to the weight. > > Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than > aircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully > charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in effect de ep > cycle the pack routinely. > > In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from the > start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the > important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. Th is > is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. > > If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternator s > now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I > would like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no > engine driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could functio n > for a while (and how long that while might be). > > thanks for your reply > > Aerocanard 948RG > > rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > edu> > > On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a > > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or > > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the > > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just > > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals > > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic > > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that > > system. > Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. > Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was > converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They > weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. > > I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only > weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in > a much more spritely manner. > > There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that > voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge > (SOC). From roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely > empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start > to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you > don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. > > LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together > will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly > dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that > drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full > for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity == (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > lectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www .buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ======================== ===roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?AeroElec===================== ======; <http://www.aeroelectric.com>http://forums.=== ============== > > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > <http://forums.matronics.com> > <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> > > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > <http://forums.matronics.com>*www.aeroelec D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=33D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * > > * > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D > > * > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:51:00 AM PST US
    From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
    Subject: lithium facts
    NOT BORING. Please continue, Lithium may be the future for our battery systems. You may be witnessing discovery, understanding, application, implementation right before your eyes! Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Tipton Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:58 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts Hi Guys Who is now getting bored with this thread John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: Greetings Rick, and all, My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, and I too am to lazy to do the math. In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the different types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with that,also. My understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is that it takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying to figure out watts that all about. I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored power in a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl stop gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false readings, or worse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I may squirt various liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not know the level at which that would occur. I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid Devices 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was actually quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and attempt to correct that with aileron input. fortunately I discovered this on the ground in initial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted time) determined that to be the problem. In the air, with alternators alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighter circles. I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage (assuming enough amps). If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to this, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful comparison between the two chemistries. The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous post was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 batteries could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs. The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I may not know watt I am talking about. Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps great-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certainly had advantages, specifically with respect to the weight. Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than aircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in effect deep cycle the pack routinely. In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from the start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternators now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I would like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no engine driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function for a while (and how long that while might be). thanks for your reply Aerocanard 948RG rich -----Original Message----- From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu> Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that > system. Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in a much more spritely manner. There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge (SOC). From roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity =========================== (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) lectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank" <http://www.aeroelectric.com> >www.buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ===========================roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec================ ==========; http://forums.========================================== <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== =========


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:22:58 PM PST US
    Subject: lithium facts
    From: "j. davis" <jwd3ca@gmail.com>
    Agree with B Tomm. This is important new technology! Ignore this guy and carry on... On 13 Nov 2014 15:07, "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net> wrote: > NOT BORING. Please continue, Lithium may be the future for our battery > systems. You may be witnessing discovery, understanding, application, > implementation right before your eyes! > > Bevan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John Tipton > *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:58 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > Hi Guys > > Who is now getting bored with this thread > > John > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 13 Nov 2014, at 05:04 pm, argoldman@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings Rick, and all, > > My builder is familiar with the concepts and suggestions in your post, and > I too am to lazy to do the math. > > In terms of the voltage drop during discharge being different for the > different types of batteries, my owner is also quite famaliar with > that,also. My understanding of electronics (gleaned through reading > stuff--very difficult without my landing light lenses attached, is that it > takes a combination of voltage and amperage to do a job. I'm still trying > to figure out watts that all about. > > I do know that at a certain time in the deminishment of the stored power > in a battery, no matter what the chemistry, that my gizmos willl stop > gizzing and give my owner either a big "X" across the screen or false > readings, or worse yet, my heart will beat incorrectly, if at all, and I > may squirt various liquids inappropriately and at incorrect times. I do not > know the level at which that would occur. > > I remember in a sibling that my builder also built, he had a Navaid > Devices 1 axis autopilot (company now out of business). This device was > actually quite good, however at about 11V the device would show a turn and > attempt to correct that with aileron input. fortunately I discovered this > on the ground in initial testing and after extensive testing (and wasted > time) determined that to be the problem. In the air, with alternators > alternating, no problem, however if they went into an alternated state, I > would probably still be up there flying in increasingly tighter circles. > > I believe his new plane will operate properly until much lower voltage > (assuming enough amps). > > If we define a specific voltage and wattage (of course I don't know what I > am tak\lking about since I am just an airplane) and test each sample to > this, we can get some sort of data that would indicate a more meaningful > comparison between the two chemistries. > > The reason I specified battery packs of the same weight in my previous > post was to equal the field from which the appropriate weight of LiFePo4 > batteries could be "equivalent" for my electrical needs. > > The flat discharge voltage curve of LI-type is an enticing factor, but > only if enough amps are delivered at that voltage. again as an aircraft I > may not know watt I am talking about. > > > Bravo for going electric with your truck. My lungs and perhaps > great-grandchildren thank you. the conversion to LI batteries certainly had > advantages, specifically with respect to the weight. > > Your battery utilization, for the truck, however is quite different than > aircraft usage as you, as you know, start out with a relatively fully > charged battery group (at least at the start of the day) and in effect deep > cycle the pack routinely. > > In aircraft, because in most cases the battery, after recovering from the > start, is at relatively full charge, it never deep cycles, and the > important thing is how much Juce is available if the alternator quits. This > is a one time semi emergency problem, not a routine thing. > > If I am flying along and loose my alternator (considering dual alternators > now which would really change my battery specs to primarily starting) I > would like to know if my EFI, Elecronic ignition, electric fuel pumps (no > engine driven pump) and a com and possibly a nav radio, all could function > for a while (and how long that while might be). > > thanks for your reply > > Aerocanard 948RG > > rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe@yale.edu> > To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wed, Nov 12, 2014 3:31 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts > > > On 11/12/2014 02:28 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > > So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a > > lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or > > batteries) of EQUAL weight.How long would I last with each before the > > energy (since being an aircraft I don't know volts from amps (I just > > buzz around saying OOOOOOM)) is low enough to start effecting my vitals > > I am going to assume that the charging method is the standard basic > > settings of the aircraft with the battery(s) charged to max with that > > system. > Equal weight? No contest although I'm too lazy to do the math right now. > Here's an anecdotal answer though. I have a Ford Ranger that was > converted to electric. 144 volts with 24 215Ah lead-acid batteries. They > weighed 1600 pounds and would drive the truck about 40 miles. > > I replaced them with 38 100ah lithium cells. Still 144 volts but only > weighing 347 pounds. The truck will go about 50 miles and it does it in > a much more spritely manner. > > There are some interesting considerations for your test. One is that > voltage of lead-acid batteries decreases linearly with state of charge > (SOC). From roughly 12.65 volts fully charged to 11.89 volts completely > empty. At what point in that slope, though, will your electronics start > to behave erratically? I don't know. In general, for long life, you > don't want to discharge more than 50% or down to 12.24 volts. > > LiFePo4 cells have a very flat discharge curve. 4 cells tied together > will be at roughly 13.2 volts full and will drop to 12.6 before suddenly > dropping to 0 as the battery reaches empty. You'd like to avoid that > drop but as far as your plane is concerned the battery will look full > for the entire discharge time which could use up almost all the capacity == (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > lectric www.aeroef="http://www.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.comhttp://ww -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ==roElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElec===========================; <http://www.aeroelectric.com>http://forums.================= > > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > <http://forums.matronics.com> > <http://forums.matronics.com> <http://forums.matronics.com> > > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > * > > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com>"'>www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com> > href='3D"http://www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>"'>www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com> > href='3D"http://www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com>"'>www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com> > href='3D"http://www.mypilotstore.com <http://www.mypilotstore.com>"'>www.mypilotstore.com <http://www.mypilotstore.com> > href='3D"http://www.mrrace.com <http://www.mrrace.com>"'>www.mrrace.com <http://www.mrrace.com> > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> > 3D============================================ > href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>"'>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> > 3D============================================ > > * > > * > > > * > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 12:47:17 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    My Thoughts As Well! We are here to learn. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/13/2014 1:11:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, keninalaska@gmail.com writes: Continue lithium discussions. Very interesting.


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:23:31 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: A R Goldman <argoldman@aol.com>
    So, bob. Now we are getting somewhere If equal weight gives li batts 4 x the stored energy it follows that you can use 1 li batt for equivalency-- or 2 for redundancy. Canard type aircraft may have more critical w&b battery location situations a nd a batt at 1/4 the weight may be helpful So if you eliminate the possible cost disadvantage and the seemingly now deb unked safety issues what other reasons are there for lithium rejection Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aero electric.com> wrote: > > At 10:54 2014-11-13, you wrote: >> So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a lea d acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or batteries) of EQUAL weight. > > I see I blew the original premise . . . EQUAL weight. > Okay, stack 4 ETX-36 batteries in for approximately > the same weight as a PC-680. At 4x the stored energy > of the PC-680 at the 15A load rate you can fly > for 3+ hours while supporting the 180W load. > > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:53:15 PM PST US
    From: "Rene" <rene@felker.com>
    Subject: lithium facts
    Now, if there was a drop in Li replacement for a 925 that weighted 1/3 the weight I would be all over it. Because of poor decisions I made during construction I am tail heavy and I am always looking for ways to remove weight in the tail. I think my ELT is moving forward on my next condition inspection for that reason. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A R Goldman Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts So, bob. Now we are getting somewhere If equal weight gives li batts 4 x the stored energy it follows that you can use 1 li batt for equivalency-- or 2 for redundancy. Canard type aircraft may have more critical w&b battery location situations and a batt at 1/4 the weight may be helpful So if you eliminate the possible cost disadvantage and the seemingly now debunked safety issues what other reasons are there for lithium rejection Rich Sent from my iPhone On Nov 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: At 10:54 2014-11-13, you wrote: So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or batteries) of EQUAL weight. I see I blew the original premise . . . EQUAL weight. Okay, stack 4 ETX-36 batteries in for approximately the same weight as a PC-680. At 4x the stored energy of the PC-680 at the 15A load rate you can fly for 3+ hours while supporting the 180W load. Bob . . . 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:30:11 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    Suggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery box to contain a lipo fire. -Jeff On Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:12 PM, Rene <rene@felker.com> wrote: Now, if there was a drop in Li replacement for a 925 that weighted 1/3 the weight I would be all over it. Because of poor decisions I made during construction I am tail heavy and I am always looking for ways to remove weight in the tail. I think my ELT is moving forward on my next condition inspection for that reason. Rene' 801-721-6080 From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A R Goldman Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts So, bob. Now we are getting somewhere If equal weight gives li batts 4 x the stored energy it follows that you can use 1 li batt for equivalency-- or 2 for redundancy. Canard type aircraft may have more critical w&b battery location situations and a batt at 1/4 the weight may be helpful So if you eliminate the possible cost disadvantage and the seemingly now debunked safety issues what other reasons are there for lithium rejection Rich Sent from my iPhone On Nov 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: At 10:54 2014-11-13, you wrote: > > >So lets take a non-starting, constant load of say--15A and compare a lead acid battery of a given size and a LIFEPo4 battery (Or batteries) of EQUAL weight. > > I see I blew the original premise . . . EQUAL weight. > Okay, stack 4 ETX-36 batteries in for approximately > the same weight as a PC-680. At 4x the stored energy > of the PC-680 at the 15A load rate you can fly > for 3+ hours while supporting the 180W load. > > > > Bob . . . > > > www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com www.mypilotstore.com www.mrrace.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com




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