AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 11/14/14


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:44 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle)
     1. 07:57 AM - Re: lithium facts (Jan de Jong)
     2. 08:43 AM - Re: lithium facts (Jeff Luckey)
     3. 08:59 AM - Lithium facts (Ronald Cox)
     4. 08:59 AM - Lithium facts (Ronald Cox)
     5. 12:02 PM - Re: lithium facts (Jan de Jong)
     6. 12:35 PM - Re: lithium facts (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     7. 01:34 PM - Re: lithium facts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 05:08 PM - Re: lithium facts (argoldman@aol.com)
     9. 10:23 PM - Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (Bill Reining)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 12:44:54 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists...
    Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 07:57:26 AM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    On 11/14/2014 4:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Suggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery > box to contain a lipo fire. > Is this a little pessimistic? Some old LiFePO4 on youtube, for those who have not looked there yet - vandalism committed upon a Headway 38120 10Ah LiFePO4 cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapfB0Imo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52h8IK0IdqI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJM8MZkFKU Are the results valid for A123 ANR26650M1-B cells? - on the one hand the Headway cell has a lower maximum discharge rate (10C vs. 30C) - and is slightly (8% or so) heavier per Ah - on the other hand the state of charge ranges from fully charged to very much overcharged It does not appear as if a fire must be expected in the course of reasonable or even unreasonable use. Jan de Jong


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:43:05 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    Jan, I don't think I'm being pessimistic; cautious is a better word. I have witnessed several lipo fires or their aftermath in R/C aircraft. I even remember a Toyota Corolla that burned to the tires because of a Lipo that was being charged in the back seat. In addition, we all know about the Boeing issues. How many dollars did they spend on R&D? I think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility of a Lipo fire. Based on my experience over the past 10 years with Lipos, I would not even consider flying behind one - it is simply not worth it to me to save a few pounds. Having said that - Lipos are great for driving around in your Tesla - if there's problem, you can get out and walk - but I don't want to be at 7500 ft when that happens. -Jeff On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:08 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote: On 11/14/2014 4:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: Suggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery box to contain a lipo fire. > > Is this a little pessimistic? Some old LiFePO4 on youtube, for those who have not looked there yet - vandalism committed upon a Headway 38120 10Ah LiFePO4 cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapfB0Imo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52h8IK0IdqI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJM8MZkFKU Are the results valid for A123 ANR26650M1-B cells? - on the one hand the Headway cell has a lower maximum discharge rate (10C vs. 30C) - and is slightly (8% or so) heavier per Ah - on the other hand the state of charge ranges from fully charged to very much overcharged It does not appear as if a fire must be expected in the course of reasonable or even unreasonable use. Jan de Jong


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:59:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Lithium facts
    From: Ronald Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com>
    I, for one, haven't seen a boring thread here in a loooong time. I'm learning a lot, and I think the activity indicates the same from others. Doesn't have a direct application at the moment, but this is how NW ideas get developed within our community, and I hope no one is intimidated into killing off the discussion. I'd suggest the complainer switch to the Digest, and then he can easily scroll to whatever he is interested in. Ron


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:59:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Lithium facts
    From: Ronald Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com>
    I, for one, haven't seen a boring thread here in a loooong time. I'm learning a lot, and I think the activity indicates the same from others. Doesn't have a direct application at the moment, but this is how NW ideas get developed within our community, and I hope no one is intimidated into killing off the discussion. I'd suggest the complainer switch to the Digest, and then he can easily scroll to whatever he is interested in. Ron


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:02:44 PM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    LiFePO4 or LFP, not Lipo (= LiCoO2 or LCO ). There is a big difference in safety: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion Jan de Jong On 11/14/2014 5:41 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Jan, > > I don't think I'm being pessimistic; cautious is a better word. > > I have witnessed several lipo fires or their aftermath in R/C > aircraft. I even remember a Toyota Corolla that burned to the tires > because of a Lipo that was being charged in the back seat. > > In addition, we all know about the Boeing issues. How many dollars did > they spend on R&D? > > I think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility of a Lipo fire. > > Based on my experience over the past 10 years with Lipos, I would not > even consider flying behind one - it is simply not worth it to me to > save a few pounds. > > Having said that - Lipos are great for driving around in your Tesla - > if there's problem, you can get out and walk - but I don't want to be > at 7500 ft when that happens. > > > -Jeff > > > On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:08 AM, Jan de Jong > <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote: > > > On 11/14/2014 4:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: >> Suggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery >> box to contain a lipo fire. >> > > Is this a little pessimistic? > > Some old LiFePO4 on youtube, for those who have not looked there yet - > vandalism committed upon a Headway 38120 10Ah LiFePO4 cell: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapfB0Imo > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52h8IK0IdqI > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJM8MZkFKU > > Are the results valid for A123 ANR26650M1-B cells? > > - on the one hand the Headway cell has a lower maximum discharge rate > (10C vs. 30C) > - and is slightly (8% or so) heavier per Ah > > - on the other hand the state of charge ranges from fully charged to > very much overcharged > > It does not appear as if a fire must be expected in the course of > reasonable or even unreasonable use. > > Jan de Jong > * > > > * > > > * > > > *


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:35:49 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    Good Afternoon Jeff, And, if we stopped talking about lithium batteries, where would you post your reservations? Personally. I think the more written about them, the better. You will notice that Boeing is still using the units as are most cell phones and other small electronic devices. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/14/2014 2:26:19 P.M. Central Standard Time, jluckey@pacbell.net writes: Jan, I don't think I'm being pessimistic; cautious is a better word. I have witnessed several lipo fires or their aftermath in R/C aircraft. I even remember a Toyota Corolla that burned to the tires because of a Lipo that was being charged in the back seat. In addition, we all know about the Boeing issues. How many dollars did they spend on R&D? I think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility of a Lipo fire. Based on my experience over the past 10 years with Lipos, I would not even consider flying behind one - it is simply not worth it to me to save a few pounds. Having said that - Lipos are great for driving around in your Tesla - if there's problem, you can get out and walk - but I don't want to be at 7500 ft when that happens. -Jeff


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:34:42 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    At 21:27 2014-11-13, you wrote: >Suggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery >box to contain a lipo fire. > >-Jeff Haven't really prayed over the fire issue much. We know that the True Blue enclosure was designed, tested and qualified to contain the worst that a catastrophic energy release can offer. At same time, we know that to test the enclosure, the BMS has to be bypassed and the battery abused with a 42 volt charger and only after some considerable time do cells begin to fail. Then they exude a mixture of flammable gasses . . . which do not 'burn' for lack of oxygen. The mixture is vented harmlessly over-board while surface temperatures on the battery enclosure remain quite modest. In this case, the energetic mayhem going on within the battery box isn't really a fire but simply an array of cells in self-destruction . . . after one or more cells is abused to failure thus triggering a cascade. This kind of testing is the sort of thing the Navy's Battery labs in Crane, IN used to do. I suspect they still do. Assume the worst even if you have to trigger the event yourself . . . then mitigate the outcome. Obviously, many segments of the battery market are embracing lithium products not the least of which is motorcycles. There are many more lithium batteries in service outside OBAM aviation than inside it. The marketplace is a huge laboratory for testing the general robustness of available products. I've seen anecdotal references to 'fires' with lithium batteries on motorcycles. A couple were attributed failure of a "mechanical" voltage regulator to properly charge the battery. Another spoke a wiring issue (it may have be the battery wires burning . . . not the battery). Given the legacy aviation philosophy for watching bus voltage and automatically reacting to overvoltage conditions - combined design limits that automatically 'soft-charge' to 50% of chemical capacity, it seems that the likelihood of an electrically induced battery event is very low. I think it unlikely that flame-proof battery boxes will ever get a warm reception in light aviation . . . at least not until the "market laboratory" raises perceptions of risk to higher levels of apprehension. The really cool thing is that there are few imperatives for making the lead->lithium switch. Our airplanes will continue to fly as they have for over 100 years. There is both time and increasing opportunity to build a well deserved confidence in the new technology. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:08:42 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: lithium facts
    From: argoldman@aol.com
    Again, remember that there are several types of Li batteries each with it's own safety record. If we are talking safety of Li batteries and are only consideringt LIFePo4 then it is only appropriate that we refer only to the safety record of this type of battery.=0A=0A Except for Cessna and Boeing, both of which, I believe used the cobalt variety, I am una ware of any type other than LiFePo4 as suggested for our a ircraft. What the auto makers and computer/cell phone makers a re using is probably different.=0A=0ARich=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A -----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>=0AT o: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Fri, Nov 14, 2014 2:26 pm=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts=0A =0A=0A=0AJan,=0A=0A=0AI don't think I'm being pessimistic; cautious is a better word. =0A=0A=0A=0AI have witnessed several lipo fires or their aftermath in R/C aircraft. I even remember a Toyota Corolla that burned to the tires because of a Lip o that was being charged in the back seat.=0A=0A=0AIn addition , we all know about the Boeing issues. How many dollars di d they spend on R&D?=0A=0A=0AI think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility of a Lipo fire. =0A=0A=0A=0ABased on my experience over the past 10 years with Lipos, I would n ot even consider flying behind one - it is simply not wort h it to me to save a few pounds.=0A=0A=0AHaving said that - Lipos are great for driving around in your Tesla - if there's problem, you can get out and walk - but I don't want to be at 7500 ft when that happens.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A =0A On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:08 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A =0A On 11/14/201 4 4:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:=0A =0A =0A =0ASuggest updating the weight calculations to include a steel battery box to cont ain a lipo fire. =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Is thi s a little pessimistic?=0A =0A Some old LiFePO4 on youtube, for those who have not looked there yet -=0A vandalism committed upon a Headway 38120 10Ah LiFe PO4 cell:=0A =0A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapf B0Imo=0A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52h8IK0IdqI=0A h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJM8MZkFKU=0A =0A Are t he results valid for A123 ANR26650M1-B cells? =0A =0A - on the one hand the Headway cell has a lower maximum discharge rate (10C vs. 30C)=0A - and is slightly (8% or so) heavier per Ah=0A =0A - on the other hand the state of charge ranges from fully charged to very much overcharged=0A =0A I t does not appear as if a fire must be expected in the course of reasonable or even unreasonable use.=0A =0A Jan de Jong=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =====0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:23:21 PM PST US
    Subject: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot
    From: "Bill Reining" <wreining@gmail.com>
    Cessna 182J with 60A alternator, mechanical regulator, no overvoltage circuit. Alternator quit charging - shop found brushes totally worn, slip rings out of round, and rear bearing noisy. Slip rings trued, brushes replaced, bearing replaced. Bench and flight tested OK. But on subsequent trip from Calif. to OSH, following problem occured: about an hour into each leg static would appear in VHF and ammeter would flicker rapidly between charge and discharge. Turned off the alternator field with the split master switch, waited a few minutes, then turned it back on. System resumed charging normally. Replaced the regulator at OSH with a solid state unit by Zeftronics. On way back to Calif. had similar problem, only this time the system would simply stop charging, as evidenced by an alert on the JPI engine analyzer that the system voltage had fallen into the 12 volt range. As before, I could turn off the field, wait a few minutes and then restore normal operation (13.9 volts) by turning the field back on. It would seem something is overheating. Diodes in alternator? Bad field switch contact? Bad breaker? Bad capacitor? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433767#433767




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