---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/15/14: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - Re: RS422 - RS232 (Peter Pengilly) 2. 03:53 AM - Re: RS422 - RS232 (Peter Pengilly) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (user9253) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: RS422 - RS232 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:06 AM - Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:43 AM - Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (David Lloyd) 7. 09:14 AM - Re: RS422 - RS232 (Pete) 8. 11:49 AM - Re: lithium facts (Jan de Jong) 9. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (David Lloyd) 10. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:26 AM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RS422 - RS232 So the important question is what data format does the Becker require? One aspect is the protocol (in this case RS422), but equally important is what that input data represents. If it requires NMEA sentences you are probably in luck as the 430 almost certainly will output most of the common sentences, such as RMC and RMB (both required for full extended squitter). If some other data format is required it will probably get all too difficult. Look carefully at the 6401 specification as somewhere it will state the required input data format. Peter On 13/11/2014 00:28, James Bean wrote: > > > This seems to have generated some interest so I will expand. > > I presently have a Becker atc4401 Mode A/C thansponder and a Garmin > 430W gps/com/nav. > Don't know where 432W came from, sorry for the confusion. > The Becker bxp6401 Mode S ia a slide in replacement with an extra > connector for the Mode S connection. > It is not in a rack so "slide in" means the same pin-outs on the main > connector. > There is also a dongle that is programmed to provide the Mode S address. > It definitely has extended squitter. It also does Mode A and C. > Accord in to Garmin the 430W will operate with any capable Mode S > transponder. > So this seems to be a viable solution, particularly if one already has > the Becker Mode A/C. > > Jim Bean > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 07:09 PM, James Bean wrote: > > In starting to think about ADS-B one way to get out only > would be a Mode-S transponder hooked to the existing Garmin 432W. The > 432 speaks RS232 and the transponder slide in replacement speaks > RS422. There are converters available for under 20 bucks. Is it that > simple? > > Jim Bean > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:41 AM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RS422 - RS232 I found the installation manual on the web, http://www.becker-avionics.com/download/Manuals%20and%20Specifications/BXP%206400_Family/BXP6401-X-(XX)%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Issue3-ads-b.pdf The way I read it, a 430 hooked up by 232 will be adequate, interesting that a 430 & 530 are listed as non-certified GPS receivers! There is also a reference to the data interface document. Peter On 15/11/2014 11:27, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > > So the important question is what data format does the Becker require? > One aspect is the protocol (in this case RS422), but equally important > is what that input data represents. If it requires NMEA sentences you > are probably in luck as the 430 almost certainly will output most of > the common sentences, such as RMC and RMB (both required for full > extended squitter). If some other data format is required it will > probably get all too difficult. > > Look carefully at the 6401 specification as somewhere it will state > the required input data format. > > Peter > > > On 13/11/2014 00:28, James Bean wrote: >> >> >> This seems to have generated some interest so I will expand. >> >> I presently have a Becker atc4401 Mode A/C thansponder and a Garmin >> 430W gps/com/nav. >> Don't know where 432W came from, sorry for the confusion. >> The Becker bxp6401 Mode S ia a slide in replacement with an extra >> connector for the Mode S connection. >> It is not in a rack so "slide in" means the same pin-outs on the main >> connector. >> There is also a dongle that is programmed to provide the Mode S address. >> It definitely has extended squitter. It also does Mode A and C. >> Accord in to Garmin the 430W will operate with any capable Mode S >> transponder. >> So this seems to be a viable solution, particularly if one already >> has the Becker Mode A/C. >> >> Jim Bean >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 07:09 PM, James Bean wrote: >> >> In starting to think about ADS-B one way to get out only >> would be a Mode-S transponder hooked to the existing Garmin 432W. The >> 432 speaks RS232 and the transponder slide in replacement speaks >> RS422. There are converters available for under 20 bucks. Is it that >> simple? >> >> Jim Bean >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:43 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot From: "user9253" The vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad connections, either terminals or switch contacts. Check the alternator half of the master switch. For troubleshooting with the engine off, connect a high wattage lamp to the regulator ground and to the BATTERY terminal of the regulator. The lamp should light up. Measure the voltage across the lamp. It should be close to battery voltage. If the lamp does not light up or the voltage across the lamp is low, then use the voltmeter to find where the voltage is being dropped. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433774#433774 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RS422 - RS232 At 05:52 2014-11-15, you wrote: > > >I found the installation manual on the web, > >http://www.becker-avionics.com/download/Manuals%20and%20Specifications/BXP%206400_Family/BXP6401-X-(XX)%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Issue3-ads-b.pdf > Peter, thanks for posting the link. I've added this document to the installation data library on aeroelectric.com . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot At 00:21 2014-11-15, you wrote: > >Cessna 182J with 60A alternator, mechanical regulator, no overvoltage circuit. 1966 straight-tail 14V? Really? I wasn't aware that any Cessna S.E. aircraft were not fitted with ov protection in the field relay excitation lead. >Alternator quit charging - shop found brushes totally worn, slip >rings out of round, and rear bearing noisy. Slip rings trued, >brushes replaced, bearing replaced. Bench and flight tested >OK. But on subsequent trip from Calif. to OSH, following problem >occured: about an hour into each leg static would appear in VHF and >ammeter would flicker rapidly between charge and discharge. Turned >off the alternator field with the split master switch, waited a few >minutes, then turned it back on. System resumed charging normally. This kinda smells like a worn-out switch on the alternator-side of your split rocker. Has that switch ever been replaced that you know of? >Replaced the regulator at OSH with a solid state unit by >Zeftronics. On way back to Calif. had similar problem, only this >time the system would simply stop charging, as evidenced by an alert >on the JPI engine analyzer that the system voltage had fallen into >the 12 volt range. As before, I could turn off the field, wait a >few minutes and then restore normal operation (13.9 volts) by >turning the field back on. It would seem something is >overheating. Diodes in alternator? Bad field switch contact? Bad >breaker? Bad capacitor? Assuming the alternator and regulator are golden, then all you have left are the field breaker, master switch, or intermediate wiring. If the split-rocker has never been replace, I'd put a new one in just on principal. Even if this switch has not been stressed hard electrically, A switch that is nearly 50 years old is a high order suspect. Plus, it's an easy replacement given its location in the airplane. I'm curious as to the absence of o.v. protection. I was working at Cessna Pawnee plant the year that airplane was built and we were just starting to understand this new-kid-on-the-block alternator. It was just about that time that we experienced a rash of mechanical regulator failures that created some rather harsh ov conditions. I did a design for the 'fire-cracker' ov protection module that was added to the field control relay on electro-mechanical regulators. These were not 'stock' until about 1970 but I was under the impression that they go added to older models as a service bulletin. I've got a meeting at Textron next week, I'll get with my favorite archivist and research the history of that mod. In any case, I'd bet the odds are better than 50-50 that the split rocker is the problem. If not, then ALL other wiring and joints are not totally innocent until proven . . . field circuit breaker too. Those were the lowest cost device we could lay our hands on . . . and given that the breaker has probalby not tripped even once in 50 years gives rise to visions of corroded contacts. Just for grins, it might be useful to rig a 'heavy load' of a 20' or so of 20AWG wire. Use this length to dead short that field breaker and cause it to trip a half dozen times or so . . . this might 'burn' off corrosion and set things right in the universe. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:27 AM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot I had a similar alternator problem, however, it was in an RV. . . It would operate fine for a while and then get intermittent or simply quit charging. On cold restart it worked fine. . . When thru many tests and no one could not find the problem. Finally went to another electrical shop an found an older gray haired technician. He too ran the same test as others and could not find the failure. His finally test was to take the alternator apart and visually inspection the rather large gauge wiring of the "stator". He used a magnifying glass and what he found was, where the end of the stator wire was swaged into the case boss, it was cracked. It was a hairline crack that was mostly invisible to the naked eye. It was a manufacturing error during the swaggering step but got thru the system and into an RV chassis. When the alternator got hot from charging and latent engine heat that cracked stator wire would randomly open or stay open while hot. Fix was a new alternator. . . . Dave ______________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Reining" Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 10:21 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot > > > Cessna 182J with 60A alternator, mechanical regulator, no overvoltage > circuit. Alternator quit charging - shop found brushes totally worn, slip > rings out of round, and rear bearing noisy. Slip rings trued, brushes > replaced, bearing replaced. Bench and flight tested OK. But on > subsequent trip from Calif. to OSH, following problem occured: about an > hour into each leg static would appear in VHF and ammeter would flicker > rapidly between charge and discharge. Turned off the alternator field with > the split master switch, waited a few minutes, then turned it back on. > System resumed charging normally. Replaced the regulator at OSH with a > solid state unit by Zeftronics. On way back to Calif. had similar > problem, only this time the system would simply stop charging, as > evidenced by an alert on the JPI engine analyzer that the system voltage > had fallen into the 12 volt range. As before, I could turn off the field, > wait a few minutes and then restore normal operation (13.9 volts! > ) by turning the field back on. It would seem something is overheating. > Diodes in alternator? Bad field switch contact? Bad breaker? Bad > capacitor? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433767#433767 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RS422 - RS232 From: Pete I think that is because you need Waas receivers ( 430W & 530W). Pete On Nov 15, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > I found the installation manual on the web, > > http://www.becker-avionics.com/download/Manuals%20and%20Specifications/BXP%206400_Family/BXP6401-X-(XX)%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Issue3-ads-b.pdf > > The way I read it, a 430 hooked up by 232 will be adequate, interesting that a 430 & 530 are listed as non-certified GPS receivers! > > There is also a reference to the data interface document. > > Peter > > On 15/11/2014 11:27, Peter Pengilly wrote: >> >> So the important question is what data format does the Becker require? One aspect is the protocol (in this case RS422), but equally important is what that input data represents. If it requires NMEA sentences you are probably in luck as the 430 almost certainly will output most of the common sentences, such as RMC and RMB (both required for full extended squitter). If some other data format is required it will probably get all too difficult. >> >> Look carefully at the 6401 specification as somewhere it will state the required input data format. >> >> Peter >> >> >> On 13/11/2014 00:28, James Bean wrote: >>> >>> This seems to have generated some interest so I will expand. >>> >>> I presently have a Becker atc4401 Mode A/C thansponder and a Garmin 430W gps/com/nav. >>> Don't know where 432W came from, sorry for the confusion. >>> The Becker bxp6401 Mode S ia a slide in replacement with an extra connector for the Mode S connection. >>> It is not in a rack so "slide in" means the same pin-outs on the main connector. >>> There is also a dongle that is programmed to provide the Mode S address. >>> It definitely has extended squitter. It also does Mode A and C. >>> Accord in to Garmin the 430W will operate with any capable Mode S transponder. >>> So this seems to be a viable solution, particularly if one already has the Becker Mode A/C. >>> >>> Jim Bean >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 07:09 PM, James Bean wrote: >>> >>> In starting to think about ADS-B one way to get out only would be a Mode-S transponder hooked to the existing Garmin 432W. The 432 speaks RS232 and the transponder slide in replacement speaks RS422. There are converters available for under 20 bucks. Is it that simple? >>> >>> Jim Bean >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:37 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: lithium facts Bob, In case you are starting to consider EarthX for our airplanes..... I had some interaction with Reg Nicoson, lead product engineer at EarthX, a little over a year ago concerning unwanted buit-in OV cut-off which ended with the following last and second-to-last message: " Tricky - there is voltage level, but there is also risetime. Alternator OV relay is slow at say 15.0 V. Battery OV mosfets are fast at say 16.0 V. A fast step from 14.5 to 18 volts would give a 50 ms dropout or so. Which can possibly be covered with a large capacitor across the bus. It does get somewhat involved though. Jan On 10/1/2013 6:58 AM, Sales wrote: You are correct, a BMS is required for safe and reliable operation. The lithium cell high voltage cutoff has to be below 4volt per cell, or 16V for the battery. Our high voltage cutoff is set to 15.5 volt, which is where the mosfets start to turn off, but they don't completely turn off until 16.5V at the battery terminal (15.8volt at the lithium cells). Is it possible to adjust your aircrafts OV protection setting to 15 - 15.5V? If so I believe it would work. Reg " I wonder if you would want to try and induce EartX to make an aviation version of their batteries that don't have the buit-in OV cutoff, replacing it with a stern warning that an external reliable fast OV switch is mandatory. They could even sell one. Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:46 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot The older legacy Cessna's and maybe others used a single push-pull Master switch instead of the more common split masters. The switch contained two contact circuits on one switch. One controlled the field of the charging system. This switch is normally very robust. However, when problems of non-functioning or intermittent problems with the charging system there is an odd problem with this switch that should always be checked. The exterior terminals are riveted thru to the interior contacts. The rivets and screw terminal use different metals. I have found some of these terminals loose under the rivet. They can be rotated slightly when there is a problem. I do not know if the looseness comes from. . .aging, wiring abuse when electrical service work is done under the panel, or electrolysis from the different metals and moisture. If you are having charging problems and use this type of master swt., be sure to check the "tightness" of this riveted joint. Any looseness is a problem. D ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 6:19 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot > > The vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad connections, > either terminals or switch contacts. Check the alternator half of the > master switch. For troubleshooting with the engine off, connect a high > wattage lamp to the regulator ground and to the BATTERY terminal of the > regulator. The lamp should light up. Measure the voltage across the > lamp. It should be close to battery voltage. If the lamp does not light > up or the voltage across the lamp is low, then use the voltmeter to find > where the voltage is being dropped. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433774#433774 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging system problem - please help troubleshoot At 14:26 2014-11-15, you wrote: The older legacy Cessna's and maybe others used a single push-pull Master switch instead of the more common split masters. The switch contained two contact circuits on one switch. One controlled the field of the charging system. Yes, but it was the advent of alternators that birthed the split rocker . . . was a long time ago so I don't recall whether or not any early alternator installations went out with the Cole-Hersy push-pull switches. Bill, is your airplane fitted with a split rocker master switch? I do not know if the looseness comes from. . .aging, wiring abuse when electrical service work is done under the panel, or electrolysis from the different metals and moisture. I think the rivets were set down against phenolic insulator close-out. Not the most dimensionally stable material under pressure. If you are having charging problems and use this type of master swt., be sure to check the "tightness" of this riveted joint. Any looseness is a problem. Agreed . . . 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