---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/23/14: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 09:33 AM - Just A Few Days Left... (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:02 AM - Re: Re: Wiring schematic question (Ryan) 2. 03:08 AM - Re: Re: Wiring schematic question (Peter Pengilly) 3. 08:09 AM - Re: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:29 AM - Re: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps (DeWitt Whittington) 5. 09:11 AM - Voltage regulator recommendation? (Joe Dubner) 6. 11:15 AM - Re: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps (Eric M. Jones) 7. 06:27 PM - Re: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 06:47 PM - Re: Voltage regulator recommendation? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:26 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Just A Few Days Left... Dear Listers, There are just a few days left for this year's List Fund Raiser. If you've been putting off making a Contribution until the last minute, well, this is it! The last minute, that is... :-) There are some GREAT new gift selections to choose from this year. I personally want at least three of them! There's probably something you can't live without too! And, best of all it supports your Lists! Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions during this Fund Raiser. Let's make this a "Black Friday" for the Lists! Please make a Contribution today! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:15 AM PST US From: Ryan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring schematic question Thanks Bob=2C The whole system is reasonably low load although I do have an EFIS and engi ne sensors (approx. 600mA total)=2C Trig radio (approx. 3.2A) and transpond er (approx. 1.5A)=2C these are the only things running continuously. Also h ave starter and smoke pump (approx. 3-4A for 8-10min max)=2C no electric fu el pump (wobble only)=2C no lights. Battery is a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 LiFe (18Ah Pb 270CCA equiv. supposedly). "As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF=2C you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter con tactor adjacent to the battery too." This is how I was likely to do the wiring=2C I could just go for a reasonab ly low current relay as a master contactor in this situation given my relat ively low overall requirement. No MOV's then but will use starter contactor with diode close to battery? Cheers=2C Ryan Date: Tue=2C 18 Nov 2014 14:31:58 -0600 From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring schematic question =0A =0A At 03:41 2014-11-17=2C you wrote: =0A Hi Bob=2C =0A I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few=0A things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak=0A with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website=2C it =0A was made mention that you drew it up. =0A Drawing number 420-506 =0A =0A http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf =0A =0A http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf =0A I had a couple of questions=2C hopefully you can assist a little. =0A =0A =0A My apologies=2C I didn't 'scope out the rest of the diagram.=0A No=2C that general architecture was not suggested by me but=0A the diagram does have some features borrowed from the z-figures=0A of that era. For one thing=2C the MOV's as transient suppressors=0A was NOT a good idea. We abandoned that recommendation in=0A the AeroElectic Connection . . . oh . . .I forget. But a long=0A time ago. =0A =0A =0A With an SD-8=2C one is indeed strapped for 'surplus energy'=0A so elimination of the battery contactor is a useful thing=0A from the energy management perspective. Do you KNOW what=0A your ship's running loads are? How big is your battery?=0A What kind of strobe system . . . and current draw? =0A =0A =0A As long as your battery is in good condition and fully=0A charged at engine start=2C the probability of a contactor=0A sticking is very low. It's the tentative closures when=0A a soggy battery is trying to grunt the starter that=0A gets you a stuck contactor. At the same time=2C the=0A modern intermittent duty starter contactors are much=0A more resistant to sticking under all conditions . . . again=0A assuming that you 'drive 'em hard' . . . 20AWG wire=0A to the 5A coil is a good idea. =0A =0A As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking=0A 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches=0A OFF=2C you COULD use a battery master relay that did not=0A carry starter current while locating the external=0A starter contactor adjacent to the battery too. =0A =0A =0A However=2C your risks are low using the diagram as published.=0A The only changes I would recommend are using diodes=0A across the contactor coils . . . and the starter=0A contactor that B*C sells already has one installed.=0A Ditch the MOVs. Does this cover 'the rest of the=0A story?'=0A =0A Bob . . . =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:38 AM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring schematic question Why is a master contactor required - just use a switch? The only load that will be switch by the master switch is the engine monitor - that is assuming the radio (normal current 500mA or less - only 3A on tx), txpdr & smoke pump are switch separately. 600mA should be tolerable for just about any switch, and even 8 or 10A occasionally for any reasonable quality switch. Wobble pumps seem popular, but to my mind are only useful for starting. A friend with a Laser ended up in a field when his mech pump failed and he couldn't wobble enough to keep airborne. An electric pump will at least get you home. Peter On 23/11/2014 09:01, Ryan wrote: > Thanks Bob, > > The whole system is reasonably low load although I do have an EFIS and > engine sensors (approx. 600mA total), Trig radio (approx. 3.2A) and > transponder (approx. 1.5A), these are the only things running > continuously. Also have starter and smoke pump (approx. 3-4A > for 8-10min max), no electric fuel pump (wobble only), no lights. > > Battery is a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 LiFe (18Ah Pb 270CCA equiv. supposedly). > > "As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking > 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches > OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not > carry starter current while locating the external > starter contactor adjacent to the battery too." > This is how I was likely to do the wiring, I could just go for a > reasonably low current relay as a master contactor in this situation > given my relatively low overall requirement. > > No MOV's then but will use starter contactor with diode close to battery? > > Cheers, > > Ryan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:31:58 -0600 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring schematic question > > At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few > things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak > with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, > it was made mention that you drew it up. > Drawing number 420-506 > > http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf > http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf > > I had a couple of > questions, hopefully you can assist a little. > * > > * > > * > My apologies, I didn't 'scope out the rest of the diagram. > No, that general architecture was not suggested by me but > the diagram does have some features borrowed from the z-figures > of that era. For one thing, the MOV's as transient suppressors > was NOT a good idea. We abandoned that recommendation in > the AeroElectic Connection . . . oh . . .I forget. But a long > time ago. > > With an SD-8, one is indeed strapped for 'surplus energy' > so elimination of the battery contactor is a useful thing > from the energy management perspective. Do you KNOW what > your ship's running loads are? How big is your battery? > What kind of strobe system . . . and current draw? > > As long as your battery is in good condition and fully > charged at engine start, the probability of a contactor > sticking is very low. It's the tentative closures when > a soggy battery is trying to grunt the starter that > gets you a stuck contactor. At the same time, the > modern intermittent duty starter contactors are much > more resistant to sticking under all conditions . . . again > assuming that you 'drive 'em hard' . . . 20AWG wire > to the 5A coil is a good idea. > As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking > 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches > OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not > carry starter current while locating the external > starter contactor adjacent to the battery too. > > However, your risks are low using the diagram as published. > The only changes I would recommend are using diodes > across the contactor coils . . . and the starter > contactor that B*C sells already has one installed. * > *Ditch the MOVs. Does this cover 'the rest of the story?'* > > Bob . . . > * > > ========== > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com > ank">www.mrrace.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps At 11:39 AM 11/22/2014, you wrote: We installed the very first Duckworks HID light kit sold for a Sportsman. We had to modify the kit and make our own lens since Duckworks had never sold a kit for a Sportsman so we were told. We installed the largest bulbs available, I think 75w. We've turned them on several times, but since we are still not flying don't know how they will work for takeoff and landing. They are really, really bright. However, since we have a super-loaded 3-screen panel with all sorts of other electrical goodies for our electrically dependent Subaru engine, we are thinking we should have waited much longer to install landing light and chosen LED so the current draw woud be much lower. Landing lights, in every era of aviation, have significant influence on issues of POWER (breaker, switch and wire sizing) but very little influence on ENERGY (alternator, battery sizing). They're an intermittent load really useful for mere seconds of every flight cycle. Have you done a load analysis on your project? One of my partners is worried that the Duckworks HIDs will give super light for take-off and landing, but maybe not for taxiing. We'll see. MOST of the HID after-market targets were focused on down-the-road visibility, not much interest in seeing around corners, therefore, tightly beamed. A further thought suggesets that very little light is needed to avoid taxiing onto the grass . . . but even if the 'scatter' from your landing light is sufficient to the task, the thing could make you unpopular on the airport. We were taught at Mid Continent to minimize the use of any lights on the GA ramps and taxiways . . . having a bond-fide retina-burner for a landing/taxi light could draw some unkindly words from others out and about in their airplanes after dark. Is the Sportsman a tail dragger? Is the Duckworths installation dual . . . one on each wing? You may find that it's quite sufficient to leave one side fitted with HID and replace the other side's lamp with an LED flood for taxi. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps From: DeWitt Whittington Thanks for the comments, Bob. We have a tri-gear Sportsman and dual just-inside-the-wingtips Duckworks HID lights. We have discussed the possibility of installing a basic 100w halogen light in the cowl to use for taxiing, but we were going to defer that decision until we test our installation when we move to the airport from the 3-car garage where we are building. I'm sure you are right about current draw problems since we'll not be using the HID lights when we have the pitot heat on which is our heaviest single draw. And yes, we have done a basic load analysis which is what showed us we were indeed loading the system to at least within 20% of the full 75amp output of the alternator at times. We have dual Odyssey 680 batteries to support our 3.6L Subaru. And we have the Vertical Power VP-200 system to control most of our electrical system except the direct powering of the ECU to the Subaru to make sure even with a total VP-200 failure the engine would continue to operate. Dee DeWitt (Dee) Whittington Richmond, VA 804-677-4849 iPhone 804-358-4333 Home On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > At 11:39 AM 11/22/2014, you wrote: > We installed the very first Duckworks HID light kit sold for a Sportsman. > We had to modify the kit and make our own lens since Duckworks had never > sold a kit for a Sportsman so we were told. We installed the largest bulbs > available, I think 75w. We've turned them on several times, but since we > are still not flying don't know how they will work for takeoff and landing. > They are really, really bright. However, since we have a super-loaded > 3-screen panel with all sorts of other electrical goodies for our > electrically dependent Subaru engine, we are thinking we should have waited > much longer to install landing light and chosen LED so the current draw > woud be much lower. > > Landing lights, in every era of aviation, have > significant influence on issues of POWER (breaker, > switch and wire sizing) but very little influence > on ENERGY (alternator, battery sizing). > > They're an intermittent load really useful for > mere seconds of every flight cycle. Have you > done a load analysis on your project? > > > One of my partners is worried that the Duckworks HIDs will give super > light for take-off and landing, but maybe not for taxiing. We'll see. > > MOST of the HID after-market targets were > focused on down-the-road visibility, > not much interest in seeing around corners, > therefore, tightly beamed. A further thought > suggesets that very little light is needed to avoid > taxiing onto the grass . . . but even if the > 'scatter' from your landing light is sufficient > to the task, the thing could make you unpopular > on the airport. We were taught at Mid Continent > to minimize the use of any lights on the GA > ramps and taxiways . . . having a bond-fide > retina-burner for a landing/taxi light could > draw some unkindly words from others out and > about in their airplanes after dark. > > Is the Sportsman a tail dragger? Is the Duckworths > installation dual . . . one on each wing? You may > find that it's quite sufficient to leave one > side fitted with HID and replace the other side's > lamp with an LED flood for taxi. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:16 AM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage regulator recommendation? I'm in the market for a new "Ford-type VR166" voltage regulator. My existing one produces occasional "switching noise" that's audible in my intercom. Worse yet, with the onset of cooler weather the charging voltage has been creeping upward (15.0 volts after start settling down to 14.7 in a few minutes). There are no adjustments so I'd like to replace it with one of proven quality. Can anyone give me a first-hand recommendation for a voltage regulator that they're happy with and doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg? Not a "just Google VR166 regulator" or look on eBay please. Thanks, Joe Independence, OR ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:49 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps From: "Eric M. Jones" I built medical lighting systems for decades. These included halogens, HIDs, xenon arcs, flashing xenon gas tubes, even flashing short-arcs, HP Sodiums and some other esoteric systems such as mercury arc UV systems. I am also a giant proponent of LEDs. But I could easily make the case for HIDs being the premier light source as far as optics go, because they have the highest source luminance of any possible (okay, non-nuclear) light source. This is to say, they are very small and very brilliant, which makes possible the design of optics sending the most light down range most effectively. So why doesn't the whole world use HIDs? Two reasons: 1) It's because they require power supplies (ballasts + starters) that are specifically designed for them. These power supplies used to be relatively expensive, but not so now. Although HIDs have remarkably long lifetimes (5000 hours is typical), the power supplies have shorter lifetimes than that, especially if they are abused. 2) They are still relatively new. We have seen small HIDs only since 1990. Even though LEDs will be everywhere, we will still see HIDs where long searchlight beams are required. Xenons will be a player too, mostly where color rendition is critical and cost isn't. My experience has never been that HIDs are noisy. The trick is to keep the electrodes in thermionic emission (hot). A cool electrode makes a noisy lamp. Since I sell wig-wags where people want to use them with HIDs, I offer the following abbreviated advice: --everything I know says not to wig-wag HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by, oh let's say 2500 restarts per hour! ... Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can promise you that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply and starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion. But here is what it takes if you want to do it. Here are the basic issues with HID lamps used with Perihelion Designs Wig-Wags: 1: The high-voltage ignition can feed back through the wiring and destroy solid-state electronics. Everything might be okay, then on some rainy nightka-pow! To prevent this I have added a bidirectional Zener, near the ballast. DO NOT put it between the HV ignitor and the lamp. These parts are P6KE18CA (for 14V systems) which I also sell as SnapJacks. 2: The sudden negative resistance of the lamp induces a large current, which if it comes from the Wig-Wag, will destroy the device. A CL-21 Inrush current limiter will prevent this for HID lamps up to 50 W. For larger HID lamps use CL-11. The current limiters will get hot, as they are supposed to, and should be placed where they dont get air-cooled. So I still love LEDs, but if you really need to see the deer at the other end of the runway, HIDs will do the job. If you want to wig-wag them, expect shorter lamp lifetimes, and shorter ballast lifetimes. ps: Bob, my last (175W) xenon short arc system was so EMC/RFI quiet that the test technician could not tell if it was on or off unless he opened the test chamber door and LOOKED to see if it had light coming out. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=434465#434465 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EMC lab look-see on HID lamps >I'm sure you are right about current draw problems since we'll not >be using the HID lights when we have the pitot heat on which is our >heaviest single draw. And yes, we have done a basic load analysis >which is what showed us we were indeed loading the system to at >least within 20% of the full 75amp output of the alternator at times. I'd like to see that analysis . . . Did an analysis on a full-up IFR outfitted RV some years back and came up with a 27A max continuous load . . . it would be enlightening to see your list of loads. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:47 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage regulator recommendation? At 11:10 2014-11-23, you wrote: I'm in the market for a new "Ford-type VR166" voltage regulator. My existing one produces occasional "switching noise" that's audible in my intercom. Worse yet, with the onset of cooler weather the charging voltage has been creeping upward (15.0 volts after start settling down to 14.7 in a few minutes). There are no adjustments so I'd like to replace it with one of proven quality. Can anyone give me a first-hand recommendation for a voltage regulator that they're happy with and doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg? Not a "just Google VR166 regulator" or look on eBay please. You sound 'cautious' as to your selection of devices. The modern incarnation of that product line is 40+ years old and it seems that everyone still making them should have figured out how to do it. The best recommendation anyone can make is "I got an XXX by YYY and it's not given me any trouble for ZZZ hours." But I'm pretty sure that 99% of what's offered out there would deliver to the same observation. Regulators are not critical for comfortable continuation of flight, therefore, sampling from the range of offerings is a low risk experiment and the odds are very much in your favor. Go to a local auto parts store and get one of their VR166 (or clone) . . . with $20 price point. Here's a few of many possibilities. http://tinyurl.com/puzalge http://tinyurl.com/l9jvymv http://tinyurl.com/l9jvymv The Wells VR749 and Motorcraft GR540 are alternative numbers to cross reference. 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