Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:04 AM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Ken Ryan)
2. 10:12 AM - Re: downloadable notes that go with the "Z" diagrams... (user9253)
3. 01:20 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Jeff Luckey)
4. 02:29 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Ken Ryan)
5. 02:58 PM - Re: Alternator Disconnect Z17 vs Z20... (user9253)
6. 03:37 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Charlie England)
7. 08:59 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Jim Kale)
8. 09:43 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? |
Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to
blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging
circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it
> gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the
> breaker) if that becomes necessary.
>
> A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are:
> 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over
> voltage module)
> 2. a failed over-voltage module
> 3. testing purposes
>
> A breaker is simply more practical in this situation.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must
> only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the
> chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the
> question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a
> fuse c) either is okay ?
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: downloadable notes that go with the "Z" diagrams... |
The notes are in appendix Z of this document:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
Not only that, but you get the whole book FREE!
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435649#435649
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| Subject: | Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? |
Ken,
To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an OVM. It will
just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you a convenient way
to turn-off the alternator ).
However, I'm not sure I'm following you...
The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is to turn-off
its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp, so you will
commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker feeding the regulator.
Like this:
The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create a short
circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus popping it and
shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator.
In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the alternator
because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is controlled by the
regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies the beauty of this system:
no big breaker required and no big wires running to that breaker in the panel.)
So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use the bigger
breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?"
Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z drawings?
Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about? (a schematic is
worth a thousand words)
-Jeff
On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to blow
a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to
accomplish a manual shutdown?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it gives
the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the breaker) if
that becomes necessary.
>
>A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are:
>1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over voltage
module)
>2. a failed over-voltage module
>3. testing purposes
>
>A breaker is simply more practical in this situation.
>
>
>On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must only
be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the chapter
on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the question is,
should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a fuse c) either
is okay ?
>
>
>_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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| Subject: | Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? |
Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics, but
have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two engine
driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional alternator with
the internal regulator, and the other a permanent magnet affair with an
external regulator that the Z diagrams like to refer to as a "Dynamo."
I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently) wired
for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator it cuts the
field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator.
But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need for a
breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at the Z
drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator wire is
marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called a "fuse like
device called a current limiter."
How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why is
it preferable to a fuse or breaker?
Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current wire
from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible link. The
"dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link up to the task?
Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a fuse or a breaker?
Ken
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an OVM.
> It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you a
> convenient way to turn-off the alternator ).
>
> However, I'm not sure I'm following you...
>
> The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is
> to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp, so
> you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker feeding
> the regulator. Like this:
>
>
> The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create a
> short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus
> popping it and shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator.
>
> In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the
> alternator because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is
> controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies the
> beauty of this system: no big breaker required and no big wires running to
> that breaker in the panel.)
>
> So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use
> the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?"
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z
> drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about? (a
> schematic is worth a thousand words)
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to
> blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging
> circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it
> gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the
> breaker) if that becomes necessary.
>
> A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are:
> 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over
> voltage module)
> 2. a failed over-voltage module
> 3. testing purposes
>
> A breaker is simply more practical in this situation.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must
> only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the
> chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the
> question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a
> fuse c) either is okay ?
>
>
> *
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com>
> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
> ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com <http://www.mypilotstore.com>
> ank">www.mrrace.com <http://www.mrrace.com>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Disconnect Z17 vs Z20... |
The Z-17 and Z-20 diagrams that I have both show the relay between the regulator
and the battery side of the starter contactor. Z-16 has the relay between the
dynamo and the regulator, thus switching the AC current. Either way will work.
The 20,000 microfarad capacitor helps to smooth out the pulsing DC from the single phase dynamo. Even if it is not required (but probably is), installing it will not hurt anything. Z-17 and Z-20 have voltage regulators which also rectify the AC into DC. I found this article: http://www.pra.org/publicdl/engines/477%20electrical%20output.pdf
I think that a voltage regulator should be installed rather than just a bridge
rectifier.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435658#435658
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? |
I'm not Jeff, but,
A very short length (4"-6") of wire will carry much more current than
its 'rated' capacity (which is for much longer lengths), and that's the
basis on which the fusible link idea arises.
Fusible links are common in cars these days for wire runs that have a
very low likelihood of overcurrent due to their load, but still need to
be protected from catastrophic faults (like pinched insulation causing a
short to ground). You can buy silicone-protected fusible link wire in
bulk on line in various sizes for protecting heavier wire. Common
practice is to make the link smaller by 4 numbers than the wire it
protects (a 16ga link protects a 12ga wire). Like a fuse or breaker, it
should be placed on the current source end of the wire. Properly
installed, they are much less prone to defect-induced failure than
circuit breakers or fuses (and much, much cheaper than a/c circuit
breakers). Somewhere in 'the book' you should find a reference to making
your own fusible link. It basically amounts to sliding a woven
fiberglass sleeve over the smaller gauge wire link and the joint between
link & wire. Download the book in digital form & use Acrobat Reader's
search function to find the references. If that isn't clear, just ask
for more detail.
Charlie
On 12/12/2014 4:27 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics,
> but have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two
> engine driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional
> alternator with the internal regulator, and the other a permanent
> magnet affair with an external regulator that the Z diagrams like to
> refer to as a "Dynamo."
>
> I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently)
> wired for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator
> it cuts the field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator.
>
> But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need
> for a breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at
> the Z drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator
> wire is marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called
> a "fuse like device called a current limiter."
>
> How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why
> is it preferable to a fuse or breaker?
>
> Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current
> wire from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible
> link. The "dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link
> up to the task? Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a
> fuse or a breaker?
>
> Ken
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net
> <mailto:jluckey@pacbell.net>> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/
> an OVM. It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not
> give you a convenient way to turn-off the alternator ).
>
> However, I'm not sure I'm following you...
>
> The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated
> alternator is to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually
> draws less than 1 amp, so you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco
> Series 23 circuit breaker feeding the regulator. Like this:
>
>
> The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to
> create a short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is
> present, thus popping it and shutting-down an errant
> regulator/alternator.
>
> In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of
> the alternator because it's not needed. The output of the
> alternator is controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker.
> (And therein lies the beauty of this system: no big breaker
> required and no big wires running to that breaker in the panel.)
>
> So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay
> to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a
> manual shutdown?"
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's
> Z drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking
> about? (a schematic is worth a thousand words)
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan
> <keninalaska@gmail.com <mailto:keninalaska@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP
> device to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker
> in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net
> <mailto:jluckey@pacbell.net>> wrote:
>
>
> The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker
> is that it gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the
> alternator (by pulling the breaker) if that becomes necessary.
>
> A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are:
> 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't
> have an over voltage module)
> 2. a failed over-voltage module
> 3. testing purposes
>
> A breaker is simply more practical in this situation.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan
> <keninalaska@gmail.com <mailto:keninalaska@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection
> thingy must only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a
> fuse. Yet, I just re-read the chapter on over voltage
> protection and did not see that mentioned. So the question is,
> should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a
> fuse c) either is okay ?
>
> *
> *
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | fuse or breaker for OVP? |
I=99d like to down load =9Cthe book=9D if anyone can
tell me what it is????
Jim Kale
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie England
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP?
I'm not Jeff, but,
A very short length (4"-6") of wire will carry much more current than
its 'rated' capacity (which is for much longer lengths), and that's the
basis on which the fusible link idea arises.
Fusible links are common in cars these days for wire runs that have a
very low likelihood of overcurrent due to their load, but still need to
be protected from catastrophic faults (like pinched insulation causing a
short to ground). You can buy silicone-protected fusible link wire in
bulk on line in various sizes for protecting heavier wire. Common
practice is to make the link smaller by 4 numbers than the wire it
protects (a 16ga link protects a 12ga wire). Like a fuse or breaker, it
should be placed on the current source end of the wire. Properly
installed, they are much less prone to defect-induced failure than
circuit breakers or fuses (and much, much cheaper than a/c circuit
breakers). Somewhere in 'the book' you should find a reference to making
your own fusible link. It basically amounts to sliding a woven
fiberglass sleeve over the smaller gauge wire link and the joint between
link & wire. Download the book in digital form & use Acrobat Reader's
search function to find the references. If that isn't clear, just ask
for more detail.
Charlie
On 12/12/2014 4:27 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics, but
have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two
engine driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional
alternator with the internal regulator, and the other a permanent magnet
affair with an external regulator that the Z diagrams like to refer to
as a "Dynamo."
I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently)
wired for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator it
cuts the field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator.
But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need for
a breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at the Z
drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator wire is
marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called a "fuse
like device called a current limiter."
How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why
is it preferable to a fuse or breaker?
Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current
wire from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible link.
The "dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link up to the
task? Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a fuse or a
breaker?
Ken
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net
<mailto:jluckey@pacbell.net> > wrote:
Ken,
To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an
OVM. It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you
a convenient way to turn-off the alternator ).
However, I'm not sure I'm following you...
The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is
to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp,
so you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker
feeding the regulator. Like this:
The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create
a short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus
popping it and shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator.
In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the
alternator because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is
controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies
the beauty of this system: no big breaker required and no big wires
running to that breaker in the panel.)
So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use
the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual
shutdown?"
Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z
drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about?
(a schematic is worth a thousand words)
-Jeff
On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com
<mailto:keninalaska@gmail.com> > wrote:
Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device
to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the
charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net
<mailto:jluckey@pacbell.net> > wrote:
The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it
gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the
breaker) if that becomes necessary.
A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are:
1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an
over voltage module)
2. a failed over-voltage module
3. testing purposes
A breaker is simply more practical in this situation.
On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com
<mailto:keninalaska@gmail.com> > wrote:
I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must
only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read
the chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned.
So the question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker
b) blow a fuse c) either is okay ?
<http://www.aeroelectric.com>
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
<http://www.mypilotstore.com>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? |
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