---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/12/14: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:04 AM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Ken Ryan) 2. 10:12 AM - Re: downloadable notes that go with the "Z" diagrams... (user9253) 3. 01:20 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Jeff Luckey) 4. 02:29 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Ken Ryan) 5. 02:58 PM - Re: Alternator Disconnect Z17 vs Z20... (user9253) 6. 03:37 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Charlie England) 7. 08:59 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Jim Kale) 8. 09:43 PM - Re: fuse or breaker for OVP? (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:43 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown? On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > > The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it > gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the > breaker) if that becomes necessary. > > A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are: > 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over > voltage module) > 2. a failed over-voltage module > 3. testing purposes > > A breaker is simply more practical in this situation. > > > On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan > wrote: > > > I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must > only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the > chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the > question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a > fuse c) either is okay ? > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:56 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: downloadable notes that go with the "Z" diagrams... From: "user9253" The notes are in appendix Z of this document: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf Not only that, but you get the whole book FREE! Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435649#435649 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:02 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? Ken, To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an OVM. It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you a convenient way to turn-off the alternator ). However, I'm not sure I'm following you... The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp, so you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker feeding the regulator. Like this: The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create a short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus popping it and shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator. In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the alternator because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies the beauty of this system: no big breaker required and no big wires running to that breaker in the panel.) So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?" Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about? (a schematic is worth a thousand words) -Jeff On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown? On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > >The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the breaker) if that becomes necessary. > >A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are: >1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over voltage module) >2. a failed over-voltage module >3. testing purposes > >A breaker is simply more practical in this situation. > > >On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > > >I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a fuse c) either is okay ? > > >_blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com ank">www.mrrace.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:30 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics, but have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two engine driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional alternator with the internal regulator, and the other a permanent magnet affair with an external regulator that the Z diagrams like to refer to as a "Dynamo." I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently) wired for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator it cuts the field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator. But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need for a breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at the Z drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator wire is marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called a "fuse like device called a current limiter." How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why is it preferable to a fuse or breaker? Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current wire from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible link. The "dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link up to the task? Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a fuse or a breaker? Ken On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Ken, > > To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an OVM. > It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you a > convenient way to turn-off the alternator ). > > However, I'm not sure I'm following you... > > The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is > to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp, so > you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker feeding > the regulator. Like this: > > > The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create a > short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus > popping it and shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator. > > In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the > alternator because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is > controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies the > beauty of this system: no big breaker required and no big wires running to > that breaker in the panel.) > > So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use > the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?" > > Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z > drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about? (a > schematic is worth a thousand words) > > -Jeff > > > On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan > wrote: > > > Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to > blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging > circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown? > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > > The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it > gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the > breaker) if that becomes necessary. > > A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are: > 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over > voltage module) > 2. a failed over-voltage module > 3. testing purposes > > A breaker is simply more practical in this situation. > > > On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan > wrote: > > > I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must > only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the > chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the > question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a > fuse c) either is okay ? > > > * > > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com > ank">www.mrrace.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > > * > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:32 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Disconnect Z17 vs Z20... From: "user9253" The Z-17 and Z-20 diagrams that I have both show the relay between the regulator and the battery side of the starter contactor. Z-16 has the relay between the dynamo and the regulator, thus switching the AC current. Either way will work. The 20,000 microfarad capacitor helps to smooth out the pulsing DC from the single phase dynamo. Even if it is not required (but probably is), installing it will not hurt anything. Z-17 and Z-20 have voltage regulators which also rectify the AC into DC. I found this article: http://www.pra.org/publicdl/engines/477%20electrical%20output.pdf I think that a voltage regulator should be installed rather than just a bridge rectifier. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435658#435658 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:52 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? I'm not Jeff, but, A very short length (4"-6") of wire will carry much more current than its 'rated' capacity (which is for much longer lengths), and that's the basis on which the fusible link idea arises. Fusible links are common in cars these days for wire runs that have a very low likelihood of overcurrent due to their load, but still need to be protected from catastrophic faults (like pinched insulation causing a short to ground). You can buy silicone-protected fusible link wire in bulk on line in various sizes for protecting heavier wire. Common practice is to make the link smaller by 4 numbers than the wire it protects (a 16ga link protects a 12ga wire). Like a fuse or breaker, it should be placed on the current source end of the wire. Properly installed, they are much less prone to defect-induced failure than circuit breakers or fuses (and much, much cheaper than a/c circuit breakers). Somewhere in 'the book' you should find a reference to making your own fusible link. It basically amounts to sliding a woven fiberglass sleeve over the smaller gauge wire link and the joint between link & wire. Download the book in digital form & use Acrobat Reader's search function to find the references. If that isn't clear, just ask for more detail. Charlie On 12/12/2014 4:27 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics, > but have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two > engine driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional > alternator with the internal regulator, and the other a permanent > magnet affair with an external regulator that the Z diagrams like to > refer to as a "Dynamo." > > I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently) > wired for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator > it cuts the field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator. > > But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need > for a breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at > the Z drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator > wire is marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called > a "fuse like device called a current limiter." > > How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why > is it preferable to a fuse or breaker? > > Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current > wire from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible > link. The "dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link > up to the task? Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a > fuse or a breaker? > > Ken > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey > wrote: > > Ken, > > To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ > an OVM. It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not > give you a convenient way to turn-off the alternator ). > > However, I'm not sure I'm following you... > > The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated > alternator is to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually > draws less than 1 amp, so you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco > Series 23 circuit breaker feeding the regulator. Like this: > > > The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to > create a short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is > present, thus popping it and shutting-down an errant > regulator/alternator. > > In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of > the alternator because it's not needed. The output of the > alternator is controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. > (And therein lies the beauty of this system: no big breaker > required and no big wires running to that breaker in the panel.) > > So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay > to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a > manual shutdown?" > > Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's > Z drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking > about? (a schematic is worth a thousand words) > > -Jeff > > > On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan > > wrote: > > > Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP > device to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker > in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown? > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey > wrote: > > > The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker > is that it gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the > alternator (by pulling the breaker) if that becomes necessary. > > A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are: > 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't > have an over voltage module) > 2. a failed over-voltage module > 3. testing purposes > > A breaker is simply more practical in this situation. > > > On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan > > wrote: > > > I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection > thingy must only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a > fuse. Yet, I just re-read the chapter on over voltage > protection and did not see that mentioned. So the question is, > should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a > fuse c) either is okay ? > > * > * > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:55 PM PST US From: "Jim Kale" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? I=99d like to down load =9Cthe book=9D if anyone can tell me what it is???? Jim Kale From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 5:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? I'm not Jeff, but, A very short length (4"-6") of wire will carry much more current than its 'rated' capacity (which is for much longer lengths), and that's the basis on which the fusible link idea arises. Fusible links are common in cars these days for wire runs that have a very low likelihood of overcurrent due to their load, but still need to be protected from catastrophic faults (like pinched insulation causing a short to ground). You can buy silicone-protected fusible link wire in bulk on line in various sizes for protecting heavier wire. Common practice is to make the link smaller by 4 numbers than the wire it protects (a 16ga link protects a 12ga wire). Like a fuse or breaker, it should be placed on the current source end of the wire. Properly installed, they are much less prone to defect-induced failure than circuit breakers or fuses (and much, much cheaper than a/c circuit breakers). Somewhere in 'the book' you should find a reference to making your own fusible link. It basically amounts to sliding a woven fiberglass sleeve over the smaller gauge wire link and the joint between link & wire. Download the book in digital form & use Acrobat Reader's search function to find the references. If that isn't clear, just ask for more detail. Charlie On 12/12/2014 4:27 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: Thanks Jeff. Your reply is very helpful. I am developing schematics, but have no easy way of scanning them. My system (Rotax) will have two engine driven current producers. One of them is a more traditional alternator with the internal regulator, and the other a permanent magnet affair with an external regulator that the Z diagrams like to refer to as a "Dynamo." I understand how the over voltage protection device is (differently) wired for each of these two current producers, how for the alternator it cuts the field circuit and for the dynamo it disconnects the regulator. But I was unaware that the use of the OVP device eliminates the need for a breaker in the high current charging wire. Now, looking again at the Z drawings, I see that the "fuse" in the high current alternator wire is marked by "note 10" which makes reference to something called a "fuse like device called a current limiter." How is this "current limiter" different from a fuse or breaker and why is it preferable to a fuse or breaker? Now, when I look at the Rotax specific drawing, I see the high current wire from the "dynamo" seems to be protected by a 16 gauge fusible link. The "dynamo" is rated at 22 amps. Is the 16 gauge fusible link up to the task? Why would I want to use a fusible link, rather than a fuse or a breaker? Ken On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Jeff Luckey > wrote: Ken, To answer your question directly: Yes, it's okay to use a fuse w/ an OVM. It will just be more difficult to reset ( and it does not give you a convenient way to turn-off the alternator ). However, I'm not sure I'm following you... The best way to shut-down a standard, externally-regulated alternator is to turn-off its regulator. The regulator usually draws less than 1 amp, so you will commonly see a 1 or 2 amp Tyco Series 23 circuit breaker feeding the regulator. Like this: The Over Voltage Modules we've been talking about are designed to create a short circuit on the field breaker when high voltage is present, thus popping it and shutting-down an errant regulator/alternator. In this scenario, there is no big circuit breaker in the output of the alternator because it's not needed. The output of the alternator is controlled by the regulator & its circuit breaker. (And therein lies the beauty of this system: no big breaker required and no big wires running to that breaker in the panel.) So, I'm a little confused by your question: "... Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown?" Perhaps I'm missing something? Are you referring to one of BobN's Z drawings? Do you have a schematic of the system you are talking about? (a schematic is worth a thousand words) -Jeff On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:23 AM, Ken Ryan > wrote: Thanks Jeff. Are you saying that it would be okay to use the OVP device to blow a fuse? Would it be okay to use the bigger breaker in the charging circuit to accomplish a manual shutdown? On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Jeff Luckey > wrote: The idea behind feeding the Regulator with a circuit breaker is that it gives the pilot the ability to shut-down the alternator (by pulling the breaker) if that becomes necessary. A few reasons you might want to shut down the alternator are: 1. a failed regulator that is giving full field (if you don't have an over voltage module) 2. a failed over-voltage module 3. testing purposes A breaker is simply more practical in this situation. On Thursday, December 11, 2014 3:35 PM, Ken Ryan > wrote: I read on another forum that the B&C over voltage protection thingy must only be used to trip a breaker, not to blow a fuse. Yet, I just re-read the chapter on over voltage protection and did not see that mentioned. So the question is, should the OVP device be used to: a) trip a breaker b) blow a fuse c) either is okay ? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:00 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse or breaker for OVP? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.