Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:43 AM - Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question (Dave)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:16 AM - Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (merlinspitfire)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question (Dave)
6. 08:56 AM - Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (merlinspitfire)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:17 AM - Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question (Dave)
10. 01:20 PM - RE : Re: Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (GTH)
11. 03:53 PM - Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? (merlinspitfire)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question |
I have the Shumacher 1562 charger. Can I just hook them up in parallel?
Thanks
Dave
> On Dec 26, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Earl <earl_schroeder@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Bob is sticking to this story..
>
> =46rom Earl, Retired fm GE, Sport Pilot now
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 26, 2014, at 8:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>>
>> At 18:47 2014-12-24, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello listers,
>>>
>>> I have four 12volt RV/Marine deep cycle batteries that I need to trickle
charge over the winter. Can I just connect them in parallel and use a tric
kle charger ?
>>
>>
>> 'Trickle charge' is an archaic term that accuratly describes
>> it's philosophy. Put the battery in a tiny but perpetual charge
>> mode . . . where 'trickle' used be a rate around 1 amp for honk'n
>> truck and car WET cells. Such treatment on a modern RG battery
>> is detrimental.
>>
>> The ideal charge and maintenance profile for a rechargeable
>> battery looks like this . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Charge at some reasonable current until the 'absorption' voltage
>> appropriate to the chmistry is reached and hold there for some
>> top-off time. Note that the recharge current during absorption
>> charging is constantly declining as the battery tops off. When
>> current falls to less than 5% of initial absorption rate, then
>> drop the charging voltage to just above the normal, open circuit
>> voltage for the battery.
>>
>> Absorption voltage for SVLA is on the order of 15.0 volts, OC voltage
>> is just under 13.0 volts. So to keep the battery's internal leakage
>> from discharing the battery, SUPPORT it at just above delivery
>> voltage . . . hence the only think leakage can do is load the
>> charger to a few mililamps and the charter is incapable of damaging
>> the battery.
>>
>> That de-sulfation thingy as a prophy7lactic or recovery process for
>> SVLA batteries has been hyped for decades I have yet to see a
>> double-blind study that demonstrates is efficacy. See.
>>
>> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_i
t
>>
>> I've had as many as a half dozen batteries of various sizes
>> attached to a single Battery Minder (circa before 'de-sulfating'
>> fads bubbled up). These were my laboratory portable power batteries
>> some of which held as-new capacity for as long as a decade.
>>
>> The Shumacher 1562, 1.5A chartger/maintainer is an excellent
>> product in this class of device and sells for about $20 at
>> Wal-Mart. Having the de-sulfation feature doesn't hurt but
>> it dosen't help either. Don't pay extra for it.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> ctric.com
>> >www.buildersbooks.com
>> uilthelp.com
>> otstore.com
>>
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
=========
>> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
=========
>>
>
>
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>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question |
At 20:59 2014-12-26, you wrote:
>Bob is sticking to this story..
>
> From Earl, Retired fm GE, Sport Pilot now
Yes . . . until I read or see demonstrable
arguments to the contrary.
Battery sulfation is the result of standing
in a less than fully charged state for long periods of
time. The garden variety use of batteries in
cars and airplanes seldom discharges a battery
by more than a few percent . . . whereupon the
battery is recharged as soon as the engine
starts. The vehicle is stored with a topped-off
battery.
Then there is the question of just how effectively
one can break up big chunks of lead-sulfate
crystals with electrical stimulus from outside
the cell. Then, assuming the external stimulus
DOES reduce crystal size, just what kine of stimulus?
Researching the patents, DIY articles and the
marketing hype associated with a number of
de-sulfation chargers, I find no common thread
of technology or philosophy supported with
any manner of laboratory analysis as to whether
they even work as claimed.
It follows then than all you need for long
term storage support is to 'maintain' the open
circuit terminal voltage at some level just
above the voltage delivered by the chemistry
thus relieving chemistry from having to supply
tiny leakage currents, which in an RG battery
are a small fraction of those in wet batteries.
A 1950's wet battery would self-discharge in
90 to 120 days if not 'trickled' . . . the
RG battery will loose perhaps a few percent
per month and still crank your engine next
spring.
Self discharge is a function of battery temperature
and dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. The sealed
battery's free oxygen is tiny compared to the wet
cell open to atmosphere. Further, storing the battery
in a cooler location will reduce the magnitude
of self-discharge leakage.
I'm discovering a similar conundrum in the study
of lithium batteries in airplanes. Question:
what is the value/necessity for a cell balancing
charger if we never give the charger a chance
to do what it does best . . . recharge and balance
a deeply discharged battery?
It's one thing to claim a benefit from some
device or process . . . quite another to
demonstrate that benefit in the operational
environment that is a light aircraft.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? |
Merry Christmas to all of you !
What is the maximum frequency of the output voltage generator ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436309#436309
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator |
work?
At 09:15 2014-12-27, you wrote:
><electronic.powertuning@yahoo.com>
>
>Merry Christmas to all of you !
>What is the maximum frequency of the output voltage generator ?
Good question! I've never had occasion to 'scope
the 912/914 internal alternator's electrical
'innards'. The SD-8 at 4KRPM is about 500 Hz.
But without actually measuring the frequency
on a running engine, you'll have to count the
magnets on the flywheel. Each pair of magnets
would produce one a.c. cycle as they pass an
stator pole piece. So 8 magnets would give
you 4 cycles per rev, 6000 rpm is 100 rev/sec
so the output would be 400 Hz at 6000 rpm.
Scale from there. That's the WAG, your own
discoveries may vary . . .
Let us know what you find out!
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question |
Thank you.
Dave
> On Dec 27, 2014, at 7:44 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
>
> At 20:59 2014-12-26, you wrote:
>> Bob is sticking to this story..
>>
>> From Earl, Retired fm GE, Sport Pilot now
>
> Yes . . . until I read or see demonstrable
> arguments to the contrary.
>
> Battery sulfation is the result of standing
> in a less than fully charged state for long periods of
> time. The garden variety use of batteries in
> cars and airplanes seldom discharges a battery
> by more than a few percent . . . whereupon the
> battery is recharged as soon as the engine
> starts. The vehicle is stored with a topped-off
> battery.
>
> Then there is the question of just how effectively
> one can break up big chunks of lead-sulfate
> crystals with electrical stimulus from outside
> the cell. Then, assuming the external stimulus
> DOES reduce crystal size, just what kine of stimulus?
> Researching the patents, DIY articles and the
> marketing hype associated with a number of
> de-sulfation chargers, I find no common thread
> of technology or philosophy supported with
> any manner of laboratory analysis as to whether
> they even work as claimed.
>
> It follows then than all you need for long
> term storage support is to 'maintain' the open
> circuit terminal voltage at some level just
> above the voltage delivered by the chemistry
> thus relieving chemistry from having to supply
> tiny leakage currents, which in an RG battery
> are a small fraction of those in wet batteries.
>
> A 1950's wet battery would self-discharge in
> 90 to 120 days if not 'trickled' . . . the
> RG battery will loose perhaps a few percent
> per month and still crank your engine next
> spring.
>
> Self discharge is a function of battery temperature
> and dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. The sealed
> battery's free oxygen is tiny compared to the wet
> cell open to atmosphere. Further, storing the battery
> in a cooler location will reduce the magnitude
> of self-discharge leakage.
>
> I'm discovering a similar conundrum in the study
> of lithium batteries in airplanes. Question:
> what is the value/necessity for a cell balancing
> charger if we never give the charger a chance
> to do what it does best . . . recharge and balance
> a deeply discharged battery?
>
> It's one thing to claim a benefit from some
> device or process . . . quite another to
> demonstrate that benefit in the operational
> environment that is a light aircraft.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? |
Thank You .So not exceed 600Hz frequency
No one checked with an oscilloscope ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436315#436315
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question |
At 08:38 2014-12-27, you wrote:
>I have the Shumacher 1562 charger. Can I just hook them up in parallel?
You bet . . . for maintenance . . . hook batteries
up one at a time for charging. But once each battery
is in the 'maintenance' mode, then hook them all
in parallel to store them. Keep in mind that maintenance
current is measured in a terms of a couple milliamps
per battery.
The paralleling wire need not be made from welding cable,
22awg works fine.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator |
work?
At 10:55 2014-12-27, you wrote:
><electronic.powertuning@yahoo.com>
>
>Thank You .So not exceed 600Hz frequency
>No one checked with an oscilloscope ?
Where does the 600Hz number come from?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Marine deep cycle battery charging question |
Thanks. Perfect That's info I was looking for.
Dave
> On Dec 27, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
>
> At 08:38 2014-12-27, you wrote:
>> I have the Shumacher 1562 charger. Can I just hook them up in parallel?
>
> You bet . . . for maintenance . . . hook batteries
> up one at a time for charging. But once each battery
> is in the 'maintenance' mode, then hook them all
> in parallel to store them. Keep in mind that maintenance
> current is measured in a terms of a couple milliamps
> per battery.
>
> The paralleling wire need not be made from welding cable,
> 22awg works fine.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator |
work?
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: How does the Ducatti rectifier/regulator work? |
We considered a maximum value for the choice of components in case I want to design
a regulator
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436336#436336
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