---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/17/15: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:38 AM - Insulated ground cables? (David Saylor) 2. 07:38 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (Charlie England) 3. 07:40 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Insulated_ground_cables=3F? () 4. 08:34 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (David Saylor) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (David Saylor) 6. 09:06 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:44 AM - Re: Z-9 diagram for Corvair (Billy Stewart) 8. 10:10 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (C&K) 9. 10:24 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (David Saylor) 10. 10:38 AM - ASTM F2245 (D L Josephson) 11. 11:19 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:21 AM - Re: ASTM F2245 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 11:30 AM - Re: ASTM F2245 (Jeff Luckey) 14. 11:44 AM - Re: Insulated ground cables? (Robert Reed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:53 AM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? Bob and Listers, I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has come up. Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick ground cables. Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of the planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to an insulated adel clamp? About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, the rubber won't offer much relative resistance. The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. --Dave ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:40 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? On 1/17/2015 8:36 AM, David Saylor wrote: > Bob and Listers, > > I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has > come up. > > Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick > ground cables. > > Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of > the planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: > > http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg > > The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates > to an insulated adel clamp? > > About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, > the rubber won't offer much relative resistance. > > The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing > something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. > > --Dave > > Just wild speculation, but my 1st guess would be, static dissipation. If there's any carbon in the rubber at all, it would provide a high resistance path to dissipate any high voltage static charge buildup caused by the fuel flowing through the line. Why they wouldn't just pick a spot for the clamp where it could provide vibration protection to the line at the same time, is another question.... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:32 AM PST US From: Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Insulated_ground_cables=3F? 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That's a good theory. I'll post if I get a sure answer. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7@gmail.com> > > On 1/17/2015 8:36 AM, David Saylor wrote: > >> Bob and Listers, >> >> I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has come >> up. >> >> Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick >> ground cables. >> >> Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of the >> planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: >> >> http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg >> >> The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to >> an insulated adel clamp? >> >> About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, >> the rubber won't offer much relative resistance. >> >> The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing >> something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. >> >> --Dave >> >> >> Just wild speculation, but my 1st guess would be, static dissipation. If > there's any carbon in the rubber at all, it would provide a high resistance > path to dissipate any high voltage static charge buildup caused by the fuel > flowing through the line. > > Why they wouldn't just pick a spot for the clamp where it could provide > vibration protection to the line at the same time, is another question.... > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:51 AM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? I'll look for a contact ribbon. I found this picture. It makes sense. http://www.interfast.ca/images/115.jpg On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 7:34 AM, wrote: > > > Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick ground > cables. > > Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of the > planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: > > http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg > > The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to > an insulated adel clamp? > > About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, the > rubber won't offer much relative resistance. > > The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing > something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. > > --Dave > > I believe that you will find, if you remove and inspect the Adel clamp, > there is a thin metal ribbon woven through the rubber in such a way that it > makes contact with the fuel line and the metal structure of the clamp. > This will, in fact ground the fuel line. > > Roger > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? At 08:36 2015-01-17, you wrote: Bob and Listers, I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has come up. Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick ground cables. Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of the planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to an insulated adel clamp? About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, the rubber won't offer much relative resistance. The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. --Dave There is . . . The padded clamp is for abrasion protection. Micro-vibration between the tube's surface and mounting (perhaps in combination with greasy dust) risks erosion of the surface(s) and failure of the tube. It doesn't even have to be a 'hard' mounting surface. My '57 Chevy had a steel brake line resting against a power steering hose for what had to be years. Oily contaminants helped gather 'grinding compounds' in the interface. One night about 1am my brake pedal went to the floor at a stop sign . . . fortunately out in the country on deserted roads. I nursed the car into an all night Standard station. The guy behind the counter was there to pump gas . . . didn't have a clue as to what might be useful. But he did give me access to some wrenches and acid core solder I found in the work bays. I used jumper cables on to hook my hunk of disconnected brake line across the battery. Got it warm enough to flow some solder over the hole. But it back on the car and 'had brakes' albeit a little squishy . . . bubble in the line. THAT case was a rubber hose rubbing on a steel tube. On airplane liquid lines, it's important not only to reduce the hardness of materials at the clamp up interface (hence padded clamp) but to make sure the clamp gets a firm grip on the tube (excludes contaminants and prevents relative motion). That, brethren, is the reading of THE WORD on mechanical aspects of liquid line installation. THE WORD on lightning is found in another book and discusses an entirely separate constellation of simple ideas' which drive installation of the bonding straps. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:50 AM PST US From: "Billy Stewart" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Z-9 diagram for Corvair Bob, I'm building a Zenith 601XLb with a Corvair engine. I'm using the Z-9 diagram, the Corvair/601 Engine Installation Manual By William Wynne and The AeroElectric Connection 12A as guides/references. My intentions are mostly fun flying with trips to visit family and interesting places. It will be day VFR. My desires are reliability first and foremost. I have a Dynon EFIS-D100, a EMS-D120, Garmin GTX-327, Icom IC-A210, and Garmin aera all installed, wired and tested. This was all pretty straight forward. I'm using tefzel wire, PDIG connectors and the correct crimpers for all of this. I'm into the charging system now, and since the ignition system is battery/alternator powered instead of magneto, my desire is to have a reliable charging system. If the charging system is malfunctioning, I want to know about it as soon as possible. I have the John Deere MIA10338 Alternator and the MIA881279 Rectifier/Regulator. The alternator is a permanent magnet type with single phase A.C. output coming out of the alternator. Thanks, Billy Stewart -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com] Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Z-9 diagrm for Corvair At 22:35 2015-01-14, you wrote: >Bob, > >My version of the AeroElectric book is from 2009 and the Z diagrams >began at 10. At some point, I downloaded a Z-9 from the website, I >think around 2009/10. I'm finishing the wiring on my plane and I >wanted to know if the Z-9 diagram has been updated or if the one I >have is still the best. > Revision (A) is the most current but it will be updated shortly to include REAL pinouts for the 4-function module have been firmed up . . . the device is going to production pretty soon. Z09 was crafted as a demonstration project for the AEC9024 4-function module as well as a talking paper for a List reader's intention to incorporate a Corvair engine in his project. I'll be updating Z09 for attachment to the AEC9024 installation manual as an exemplar system that might exploit the AEC9024's features. Let's talk about your intentions/desires. Are you going to use a single or three-phase alternator? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:19 AM PST US From: C&K Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? On 17/01/2015 12:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 08:36 2015-01-17, you wrote: > Bob and Listers, > > I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has > come up. > > Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick > ground cables. > > Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap. This isn't one of > the planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: > > http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg > > The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates > to an insulated adel clamp? > > About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, > the rubber won't offer much relative resistance. > > The practice is consistent across several airplanes. Are we missing > something? It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reason. > > --Dave > > There is . . . > > The padded clamp is for abrasion protection. Micro-vibration > between the tube's surface and mounting (perhaps in combination > with greasy dust) risks erosion of the surface(s) and failure > of the tube. > > It doesn't even have to be a 'hard' mounting surface. My > '57 Chevy had a steel brake line resting against a power > steering hose for what had to be years. Oily contaminants > helped gather 'grinding compounds' in the interface. One > night about 1am my brake pedal went to the floor at a stop > sign . . . fortunately out in the country on deserted roads. > > I nursed the car into an all night Standard station. The > guy behind the counter was there to pump gas . . . didn't > have a clue as to what might be useful. But he did give me > access to some wrenches and acid core solder I found > in the work bays. I used jumper cables on to hook my hunk > of disconnected brake line across the battery. Got it warm > enough to flow some solder over the hole. But it back on > the car and 'had brakes' albeit a little squishy . . . bubble > in the line. > > THAT case was a rubber hose rubbing on a steel tube. > > On airplane liquid lines, it's important not only to reduce > the hardness of materials at the clamp up interface (hence > padded clamp) but to make sure the clamp gets a firm grip > on the tube (excludes contaminants and prevents relative > motion). That, brethren, is the reading of THE WORD on > mechanical aspects of liquid line installation. > > THE WORD on lightning is found in another book and > discusses an entirely separate constellation of simple > ideas' which drive installation of the bonding straps. > > Bob . . . > 57 Chevy 86 Dodge same thing. Rubber hose OK but it abraded through a steel brake line below the master cylinder after about 7 years. There were dual (split) braking systems by 1986 but the emergency brake was more effective. I also had a rust out on a 88 Dodge and the pedal went to the floor despite the dual system. There has been discussion on bad engine ground cables that then allowed current to flow through control cables or even sensor grounds. I've seen some aircraft with metal braided fuel lines going to the engine. I question the wisdom of that and have wondered whether that could have been a factor in a failed fuel hose and subsequent fatal engine fire a few years ago. I have two independent ground cables going to my engine and sure enough I did once find a problem with one of them on an annual inspection. I've come across a couple of those adel clamps with integral metal ground but never thought about them until now. With several rubber hoses connecting various parts of some fuel systems, it makes sense to bond it such that no static can possibly build on any part of the system. Must check this because I think I might have a section of metal tubing all nicely insulated in Adel clamps, rubber grommets, and rubber hoses. Ken ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:47 AM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? =8BOK, I understand that using a tight padded clamp will preserve the clampee=8B. I've repaired much damaged from loose clamps and ty-wrap s. I still don't get, unless it's a conducting clamp, why a bonding strap would be well insulated at one end of the circuit. They're not providing any mechanical connection. Purely electrical so far as I can see. I may know a lot more after looking closer at the clamp. --Dave On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 08:36 2015-01-17, you wrote: > Bob and Listers, > > I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has come > up. > > Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick groun d > cables. > > Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap.=C3=82 This isn't one of the > planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: > > http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg > > The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to > an insulated adel clamp? > > About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, th e > rubber won't offer much relative resistance. > > The practice is consistent across several airplanes.=C3=82 Are we missin g > something?=C3=82 It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reas on. > > --Dave > > There is . . . > > The padded clamp is for abrasion protection. Micro-vibration > between the tube's surface and mounting (perhaps in combination > with greasy dust) risks erosion of the surface(s) and failure > of the tube. > > It doesn't even have to be a 'hard' mounting surface. My > '57 Chevy had a steel brake line resting against a power > steering hose for what had to be years. Oily contaminants > helped gather 'grinding compounds' in the interface. One > night about 1am my brake pedal went to the floor at a stop > sign . . . fortunately out in the country on deserted roads. > > I nursed the car into an all night Standard station. The > guy behind the counter was there to pump gas . . . didn't > have a clue as to what might be useful. But he did give me > access to some wrenches and acid core solder I found > in the work bays. I used jumper cables on to hook my hunk > of disconnected brake line across the battery. Got it warm > enough to flow some solder over the hole. But it back on > the car and 'had brakes' albeit a little squishy . . . bubble > in the line. > > THAT case was a rubber hose rubbing on a steel tube. > > On airplane liquid lines, it's important not only to reduce > the hardness of materials at the clamp up interface (hence > padded clamp) but to make sure the clamp gets a firm grip > on the tube (excludes contaminants and prevents relative > motion). That, brethren, is the reading of THE WORD on > mechanical aspects of liquid line installation. > > THE WORD on lightning is found in another book and > discusses an entirely separate constellation of simple > ideas' which drive installation of the bonding straps. > > Bob . . . > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:52 AM PST US From: D L Josephson Subject: AeroElectric-List: ASTM F2245 On 1/16/15 11:59 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > 2. After reviewing F2245 it seems strange that not only is such > circuit protection not recommended but it is specifically prohibited. > Seems like With all due respect, that is simply false with respect both to the subcommittee's intent (having been a participant or observer in many of the discussions on this topic) and the current language. People are commenting on an obsolete edition of the standard that someone pirated on to the net, not even the current one, and certainly not the one that is being further refined this month. Second, a standard permits or prohibits nothing. The point of a standard is to set a definition which can be referred to. It has no regulatory impact. FAA will accept a manufacturer's assertion of compliance with this particular standard as indicating compliance with the light-sport rules, and will consider others if proposed to them. If you don't like the standard as it is, get involved in changing it. The process is very unlike the FAA's rulemaking process: rather than staying the same for decades, the default is review and updating to meet current best practices. I have been part of that effort for two years. It takes some time, and I believe it's worthwhile. I'm involved in several other standards-making bodies and the ASTM process is faster and more accessible than most. But it is dependent on the good-faith efforts of everyone interested in the outcome. David Josephson ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? At 12:23 2015-01-17, you wrote: >OK, I understand that using a tight padded >clamp will preserve the clampee. I've >repaired much damaged from loose clamps and ty-wraps. > >I still don't get, unless it's a conducting >clamp, why a bonding strap would be well >insulated at one end of the circuit. They're >not providing any mechanical >connection. Purely electrical so far as I can see. > >I may know a lot more after looking closer at the clamp. Any sort of 'conductive' clamp can serve no better purpose than to mitigate potential differences at LOW current. I.e. static and maybe noise in radios generated by itty-bitty arcs due differences across separate airframe grounds . . . recall that any electrical connection worthy of the name is gas tight. Lots of pressure, welding, soldering, crimping, or other joining process intended to exclude moisture and preserve a BOND. There may be a constellation of simple-ideas that speak to the utility of 'mildly conducive' Adel clamps; but not that I've heard/read/observed in my travels. If design goals for airplane include some level of survivability to lightning strike, then conductive bushings in a clamp will not be part of that particular hardening process. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ASTM F2245 >It takes some time, and I believe it's worthwhile. I'm involved in >several other standards-making bodies and the ASTM process is faster >and more accessible than most. But it is dependent on the good-faith >efforts of everyone interested in the outcome. > >David Josephson Well put . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:22 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ASTM F2245 "With all due respect, that is simply false with respect both to the subcommittee's intent (having been a participant or observer in many of the discussions on this topic) and the current language. " OK, very good, I'm pleased to hear that. I must be looking at an old copy as you mention and/or factoring in other people's interpretation - bad on me. However, there is evidence that people are interpreting the standard as though it prohibits protecting the feeder in question, however incorrect that may be. "Second, a standard permits or prohibits nothing. The point of a standard is to set a definition which can be referred to." I agree in theory, however in practical application people interpret (or mis-interpret) standards like this as though they do permit or prohibit. Thanks for the clarification, -Jeff On Saturday, January 17, 2015 10:52 AM, D L Josephson wrote: On 1/16/15 11:59 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > 2. After reviewing F2245 it seems strange that not only is such > circuit protection not recommended but it is specifically prohibited. > Seems like With all due respect, that is simply false with respect both to the subcommittee's intent (having been a participant or observer in many of the discussions on this topic) and the current language. People are commenting on an obsolete edition of the standard that someone pirated on to the net, not even the current one, and certainly not the one that is being further refined this month. Second, a standard permits or prohibits nothing. The point of a standard is to set a definition which can be referred to. It has no regulatory impact. FAA will accept a manufacturer's assertion of compliance with this particular standard as indicating compliance with the light-sport rules, and will consider others if proposed to them. If you don't like the standard as it is, get involved in changing it. The process is very unlike the FAA's rulemaking process: rather than staying the same for decades, the default is review and updating to meet current best practices. I have been part of that effort for two years. It takes some time, and I believe it's worthwhile. I'm involved in several other standards-making bodies and the ASTM process is faster and more accessible than most. But it is dependent on the good-faith efforts of everyone interested in the outcome. David Josephson ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:09 AM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Insulated ground cables? Test it to see if there a connection. Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2015, at 12:23 PM, David Saylor wrote: > > =8BOK, I understand that using a tight padded clamp will preserve th e clampee=8B. I've repaired much damaged from loose clamps and ty-wra ps. > > I still don't get, unless it's a conducting clamp, why a bonding strap wou ld be well insulated at one end of the circuit. They're not providing any m echanical connection. Purely electrical so far as I can see. > > I may know a lot more after looking closer at the clamp. > > --Dave > >> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: lls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 08:36 2015-01-17, you wrote: >> Bob and Listers, >> >> I've been working on a few Beech products lately and a question has come u p. >> >> Many of the fuel lines are grounded to the airframe by short, thick groun d cables. >> >> Here's a link that shows a typical ground strap.=C3=82 This isn't one of the planes I'm working on, just a convenient snapshot off the internet: >> >> http://www.csobeech.com/images/Baron-FuelSelectorCable.jpg >> >> The question is, why bother to install a ground strap that terminates to a n insulated adel clamp? >> >> About all we can figure is that -if- they're for lightning protection, th e rubber won't offer much relative resistance. >> >> The practice is consistent across several airplanes.=C3=82 Are we missin g something?=C3=82 It's so counterintuitive that there must be a good reaso n. >> >> --Dave >> >> There is . . . >> >> The padded clamp is for abrasion protection. Micro-vibration >> between the tube's surface and mounting (perhaps in combination >> with greasy dust) risks erosion of the surface(s) and failure >> of the tube. >> >> It doesn't even have to be a 'hard' mounting surface. My >> '57 Chevy had a steel brake line resting against a power >> steering hose for what had to be years. Oily contaminants >> helped gather 'grinding compounds' in the interface. One >> night about 1am my brake pedal went to the floor at a stop >> sign . . . fortunately out in the country on deserted roads. >> >> I nursed the car into an all night Standard station. The >> guy behind the counter was there to pump gas . . . didn't >> have a clue as to what might be useful. But he did give me >> access to some wrenches and acid core solder I found >> in the work bays. I used jumper cables on to hook my hunk >> of disconnected brake line across the battery. Got it warm >> enough to flow some solder over the hole. But it back on >> the car and 'had brakes' albeit a little squishy . . . bubble >> in the line. >> >> THAT case was a rubber hose rubbing on a steel tube. >> >> On airplane liquid lines, it's important not only to reduce >> the hardness of materials at the clamp up interface (hence >> padded clamp) but to make sure the clamp gets a firm grip >> on the tube (excludes contaminants and prevents relative >> motion). That, brethren, is the reading of THE WORD on >> mechanical aspects of liquid line installation. >> >> THE WORD on lightning is found in another book and >> discusses an entirely separate constellation of simple >> ideas' which drive installation of the bonding straps. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> ========================= >> br> fts!) >> r> > /www.aeroelectric.com" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> p.com" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> e.com" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >> " target="_blank">www.mrrace.com >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========================= >> - >> Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroE lectric-List >> ========================= >> FORUMS - >> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========================= >> >> >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.