Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:11 AM - Re: Alternator/regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:08 AM - Re: Alternator/regulator (Gary Burdett)
3. 07:41 AM - Re: Alternator/regulator (user9253)
4. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Alternator/regulator (Gary Burdett)
5. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Alternator/regulator (Gary Burdett)
6. 12:14 PM - Re: Alternator/regulator (Kent or Jackie Ashton)
7. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/regulator (C&K)
8. 02:54 PM - Re: Power Generation without Battery (Chris Mullins)
9. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Power Generation without Battery (Peter Pengilly)
10. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Power Generation without Battery (Ben)
11. 03:28 PM - Re: Alternator/regulator (user9253)
12. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Power Generation without Battery (Jeff Luckey)
13. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/regulator (Gary Burdett)
14. 05:07 PM - Re: Alternator/regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
At 15:34 2015-01-19, you wrote:
>
>I have a JD/yanmar PM alternator and regulator with crowbar circuit.
>Voltage was starting to run over 15 volts at cruise rpms. Replaced
>battery and regulator, now hits 15.5 volts at anything over 2400
>rpms on first test with a fully charged battery..????
Regulator is not properly adjusted for maintaining
a lead-acid battery. Unfortunately, most of the
off-the-shelf regulators for pm alternators do not
offer user adjustments.
Finding a drop-in replacement with friendlier
performance is about your only option. Your
problem is not uncommon and the folks who design,
manufacture and market these products seem oblivious
to the disservice they impose on their customers.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
Thanks Bob,
I have an odyssey 680 cell and the first regulator ran ok for about 75 hours and
two years. I checked B&C and they do not recommend using their regulator with
an 18-20 amp pm alternator.
Oddly enough, about 10 hours ago, I switched to a rear alt setup on a Corvair which
meant the alt would spin a lot slower than the belt setup so it doesn't
start getting up to voltage until about 15-1800 rpms. If there is nothing else
to check,I will look for a higher quality regulator,maybe ,motorcycle . If you
know of good ones.....
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
>
> At 15:34 2015-01-19, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a JD/yanmar PM alternator and regulator with crowbar circuit. Voltage
was starting to run over 15 volts at cruise rpms. Replaced battery and regulator,
now hits 15.5 volts at anything over 2400 rpms on first test with a fully
charged battery..????
>
>
> Regulator is not properly adjusted for maintaining
> a lead-acid battery. Unfortunately, most of the
> off-the-shelf regulators for pm alternators do not
> offer user adjustments.
>
> Finding a drop-in replacement with friendlier
> performance is about your only option. Your
> problem is not uncommon and the folks who design,
> manufacture and market these products seem oblivious
> to the disservice they impose on their customers.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
Measure the voltage between the regulator case and regulator voltage-sense-input
terminal. If that voltage is at the desired set-point, then the regulator is
doing its job and is not defective. And if that measured voltage is at the
desired set-point, but aircraft system voltage is much higher, then there is a
bad connection someplace between the alternator output and the regulator input.
Possible trouble spots are wire terminals and alternator switch contacts.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437306#437306
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
Thanks Joe,
The input to,the regulator comes directly from the aircraft bus through a switch
and breaker and the alternator feeds directly to the bus through the regulator
and breaker. . The input is reading what the bus is reading minus 2/10 volt
due to resistance in circuit . This regulator has no adjustable set point. It
is for a PM alternator.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 9:40 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Measure the voltage between the regulator case and regulator voltage-sense-input
terminal. If that voltage is at the desired set-point, then the regulator
is doing its job and is not defective. And if that measured voltage is at the
desired set-point, but aircraft system voltage is much higher, then there is
a bad connection someplace between the alternator output and the regulator input.
Possible trouble spots are wire terminals and alternator switch contacts.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437306#437306
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
Follow up on pm alt regulator, adding about 5 amps of load brings the voltage down
to 14.2 at WOT .My plane does not use a lot of electricity and normal running
with radios and some low draw instruments pulls only a few amps. Maybe it's
a heat dissipation issue although the regulator is on the firewall under the
panel with good air flow around it and it's cool today. So , when weather breaks,a
will try a flight with everything on. Since I don't need cabin lights all
the time, maybe a 50 watt switched resistor across the bus may be a good addition.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:50 AM, Gary Burdett <gburdett1@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Joe,
> The input to,the regulator comes directly from the aircraft bus through a switch
and breaker and the alternator feeds directly to the bus through the regulator
and breaker. . The input is reading what the bus is reading minus 2/10 volt
due to resistance in circuit . This regulator has no adjustable set point.
It is for a PM alternator.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 9:40 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Measure the voltage between the regulator case and regulator voltage-sense-input
terminal. If that voltage is at the desired set-point, then the regulator
is doing its job and is not defective. And if that measured voltage is at the
desired set-point, but aircraft system voltage is much higher, then there is
a bad connection someplace between the alternator output and the regulator input.
Possible trouble spots are wire terminals and alternator switch contacts.
>> Joe
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437306#437306
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
I see a lot of discussion on tractor and boat forums about the Yanmar alternator
and its regulators, for example
http://ymowners.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1924
Try this search for a good bit of discussion:
https://www.google.com/search?q=yanmar+PM+alternator+voltage+regulator&biw=1531&bih=894&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=HrO-VN7ZCqOxsATijILgDg&ved=0CAUQ_AUoAA&dpr=1
Here is one disassembled
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=258762
-Kent
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Gary Burdett <gburdett1@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Bob,
> I have an odyssey 680 cell and the first regulator ran ok for about 75 hours
and two years. I checked B&C and they do not recommend using their regulator with
an 18-20 amp pm alternator.
> Oddly enough, about 10 hours ago, I switched to a rear alt setup on a Corvair
which meant the alt would spin a lot slower than the belt setup so it doesn't
start getting up to voltage until about 15-1800 rpms. If there is nothing else
to check,I will look for a higher quality regulator,maybe ,motorcycle . If
you know of good ones.....
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>>
>>
>> At 15:34 2015-01-19, you wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a JD/yanmar PM alternator and regulator with crowbar circuit. Voltage
was starting to run over 15 volts at cruise rpms. Replaced battery and regulator,
now hits 15.5 volts at anything over 2400 rpms on first test with a fully
charged battery..????
>>
>>
>> Regulator is not properly adjusted for maintaining
>> a lead-acid battery. Unfortunately, most of the
>> off-the-shelf regulators for pm alternators do not
>> offer user adjustments.
>>
>> Finding a drop-in replacement with friendlier
>> performance is about your only option. Your
>> problem is not uncommon and the folks who design,
>> manufacture and market these products seem oblivious
>> to the disservice they impose on their customers.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
That seems strange to me. Perhaps you meant +2/10 volts.
My PM J.Deere controls the voltage at the regulator output. ie the
highest voltage in the system is at the regulator output lug. There is
no separate voltage sense wire on my regulator. Perhaps the Yanmar does
have one in which case you can trouble shoot much like for a
conventional wound field regulator.
A 0.2 volt difference anywhere while charging lightly seems high to me
but possible if the regulator is in fact not regulating and feeding many
amps into the battery. I assume you've verified the voltage with a
handheld digital voltmeter to rule out a bad indication.
I would give the same advice that Joe did. FWIW the easiest way I've
found to kill a J.Deere regulator is to start the engine without a
battery connected (actually I had a completely dead AGM battery
connected but it might as well have been disconnected) and yes the
failure mode was maximum output with no regulation. I encourage you to
get this fixed properly and not mess with adding load to manually lower
the voltage. These batteries do not like to be overcharged.
Ken
On 20/01/2015 12:50 PM, Gary Burdett wrote:
>
> Thanks Joe,
> The input to,the regulator comes directly from the aircraft bus through a switch
and breaker and the alternator feeds directly to the bus through the regulator
and breaker. . The input is reading what the bus is reading minus 2/10 volt
due to resistance in circuit . This regulator has no adjustable set point.
It is for a PM alternator.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 9:40 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Measure the voltage between the regulator case and regulator voltage-sense-input
terminal. If that voltage is at the desired set-point, then the regulator
is doing its job and is not defective. And if that measured voltage is at the
desired set-point, but aircraft system voltage is much higher, then there is
a bad connection someplace between the alternator output and the regulator input.
Possible trouble spots are wire terminals and alternator switch contacts.
>> Joe
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437306#437306
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Power Generation without Battery |
I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being able to shut off
everything except the ignition switch, and have the engine be able to
exhaust its fuel. I still remember my surprise during training when my
instructor flipped off the rocker switch! That robustness of design is
pretty exciting.
Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that it can reasonably
stand as a single point of engine failure in a modern electrically
dependent OBAM system? I honestly don't know.
I am seeking advice regarding what seems to me the optimal arrangement - 2
alternators and one lightweight battery - which will run the engine until
fuel is exhausted in the face of any 1 out of 3 power source failures.
Maybe I am shooting too high or focusing on the wrong areas.
I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and really
appreciate every ones thoughts. I have spoken with B&C and Plane Power and
they have told me their alternators will not work without a battery.
Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product. Attractive in that
it's a bridge between old magneto technology and newer fully integrated
ones.
My current hope is to be able to use the EFII system, which has been
mentioned a number of times on the forum. Here is a link to the companies
website: http://www.flyefii.com/
It allows integration of both the fuel and ignition systems and also
precise programming of ignition curves and air fuel ratios based on real
time monitoring of several parameters. It is a single knob (ie no mixture)
system promoted as based on and similar in function to a modern automobile
system. This is beyond the P Mags capabilities, as I understand them.
Chris M
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Power Generation without Battery |
I think you have to be careful what,
"... it will not work without a battery ..." means,
As I understand it, if the battery has failed and you somehow start the
motor (hand prop, etc), then the alternator won't produce any energy as
it requires a battery to 'energise' it. However, how much energy, and
what is left in a 'dead' battery is a good question I cannot answer
quantitatively. A little and usually some are the likely answers, but
that's quite hand waving.
If the battery quits while the engine is running and the alternator(s)
are producing current, then I can't see why they would stop producing.
Its not something you would want to experiment with very often - the
battery will soak up any variation in the alternator output - but in a
failure case the aircraft should run until the fuel is exhausted.
Which question did you ask?
Peter
On 20/01/2015 22:52, Chris Mullins wrote:
> I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being able to shut off
> everything except the ignition switch, and have the engine be able to
> exhaust its fuel. I still remember my surprise during training when my
> instructor flipped off the rocker switch! That robustness of design is
> pretty exciting.
>
> Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that it can reasonably
> stand as a single point of engine failure in a modern electrically
> dependent OBAM system? I honestly don't know.
>
> I am seeking advice regarding what seems to me the optimal arrangement
> - 2 alternators and one lightweight battery - which will run the
> engine until fuel is exhausted in the face of any 1 out of 3 power
> source failures. Maybe I am shooting too high or focusing on the wrong
> areas.
>
> I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and really
> appreciate every ones thoughts. I have spoken with B&C and Plane Power
> and they have told me their alternators will not work without a battery.
>
> Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product. Attractive in
> that it's a bridge between old magneto technology and newer fully
> integrated ones.
>
> My current hope is to be able to use the EFII system, which has been
> mentioned a number of times on the forum. Here is a link to the
> companies website: http://www.flyefii.com/
> It allows integration of both the fuel and ignition systems and also
> precise programming of ignition curves and air fuel ratios based on
> real time monitoring of several parameters. It is a single knob (ie no
> mixture) system promoted as based on and similar in function to a
> modern automobile system. This is beyond the P Mags capabilities, as I
> understand them.
>
> Chris M
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Power Generation without Battery |
My experimental had dual ignitions that are electric dependent and I hav
e 500+ hours and / 1000,000 miles without a single hiccup.. Altho I do h
ave a 1000 CCA Optima battery to draw from, Not some lightweight / small
capacity one... YMMV. Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Power Generation without Battery
I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being able to shut off ever
ything except the ignition switch, and have the engine be able to exhaus
t its fuel. I still remember my surprise during training when my instruc
tor flipped off the rocker switch! That robustness of design is pretty e
xciting.
Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that it can reasonably s
tand as a single point of engine failure in a modern electrically depend
ent OBAM system? I honestly don't know. I am seeking advice regarding wh
at seems to me the optimal arrangement - 2 alternators and one lightweig
ht battery - which will run the engine until fuel is exhausted in the fa
ce of any 1 out of 3 power source failures. Maybe I am shooting too high
or focusing on the wrong areas.
I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and really ap
preciate every ones thoughts. I have spoken with B&C and Plane Power and
they have told me their alternators will not work without a battery.
Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product. Attractive in that
it's a bridge between old magneto technology and newer fully integrated
ones.
My current hope is to be able to use the EFII system, which has been men
tioned a number of times on the forum. Here is a link to the companies w
ebsite: http://www.flyefii.com/It allows integration of both the fuel an
d ignition systems and also precise programming of ignition curves and a
ir fuel ratios based on real time monitoring of several parameters. It i
s a single knob (ie no mixture) system promoted as based on and similar
in function to a modern automobile system. This is beyond the P Mags cap
abilities, as I understand them.
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
=========
____________________________________________________________
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
I agree with Ken that 2/10 volt drop seems high for a sense circuit that conducts
very little current. Try measuring the voltage drop across the switch and
then across the breaker to determine exactly where the 2/10 volt is being dropped.
Also measure the voltage drop from the regulator case to ground, assuming
the regulator is grounded through the case.
A jumper wire could be temporarily connected from the bus to the regulator input
to see if the regulation improves.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437365#437365
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Power Generation without Battery |
I'm not sure if this message got through - apologies if this is a duplicate
Chris,
If your mission profile could put you in the back country with ground
support hundreds of miles away, you may want to consider a few ideas:
1. Consider changing architecture to 2 batteries & 1 alternator. If
your only battery goes dead or has diminished capacity due to extreme
cold, you done. Having an extra alternator won't get the engine
started.
2. Maybe this is not the place for un-proven lithium battery technology.
Again, if your survival depends on it, you may want to go w/ technology that has
a proven track record.
-Jeff
On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 3:20 PM, Ben <n801bh@netzero.net> wrote:
My experimental had dual ignitions that are electric dependent and I have 500+
hours and / 1000,000 miles without a single hiccup.. Altho I do have a 1000 CCA
Optima battery to draw from, Not some lightweight / small capacity one... YMMV.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Power Generation without Battery
I keep coming back to the legacy standard of being able to shut off everything
except the ignition switch, and have the engine be able to exhaust its fuel. I
still remember my surprise during training when my instructor flipped off the
rocker switch! That robustness of design is pretty exciting.
Is one lead acid battery considered so reliable that it can reasonably stand as
a single point of engine failure in a modern electrically dependent OBAM system?
I honestly don't know.
I am seeking advice regarding what seems to me the optimal arrangement - 2 alternators
and one lightweight battery - which will run the engine until fuel is
exhausted in the face of any 1 out of 3 power source failures. Maybe I am shooting
too high or focusing on the wrong areas.
I am not even close to an engineer but am willing to learn and really appreciate
every ones thoughts. I have spoken with B&C and Plane Power and they have told
me their alternators will not work without a battery.
Regarding the P Mag - It seems to be a solid product. Attractive in that it's a
bridge between old magneto technology and newer fully integrated ones.
My current hope is to be able to use the EFII system, which has been mentioned a number of times on the forum. Here is a link to the companies website: http://www.flyefii.com/It allows integration of both the fuel and ignition systems and also precise programming of ignition curves and air fuel ratios based on real time monitoring of several parameters. It is a single knob (ie no mixture) system promoted as based on and similar in function to a modern automobile system. This is beyond the P Mags capabilities, as I understand them.
Chris M
==================================== oelectric.com
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omebuilthelp.com
ypilotstore.com
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www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
c-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
Joe etal,
The 2/10 was just the voltage difference between different points in the circuit
with the master turned on, no alternator charging. Just to illustrate an insignificant
difference around the circuit and that the power input to the reg,
sensing, was the same as the bus. The system is working, as Bob said earlier,
the lawn tractor regulators are not always crafted to the highest quality as they
are made meet lawn tractor standards, not aviation ones. Nevertheless , I
will keep a watch on the voltage carefully until I find a replacement, giving
it a dummy load does work, just not a permanent fix. Thanks for the help.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 20, 2015, at 5:27 PM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Ken that 2/10 volt drop seems high for a sense circuit that conducts
very little current. Try measuring the voltage drop across the switch and
then across the breaker to determine exactly where the 2/10 volt is being dropped.
Also measure the voltage drop from the regulator case to ground, assuming
the regulator is grounded through the case.
> A jumper wire could be temporarily connected from the bus to the regulator input
to see if the regulation improves.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437365#437365
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/regulator |
At 15:34 2015-01-19, you wrote:
>
>I have a JD/yanmar PM alternator and regulator with crowbar circuit.
>Voltage was starting to run over 15 volts at cruise rpms. Replaced
>battery and regulator, now hits 15.5 volts at anything over 2400
>rpms on first test with a fully charged battery..????
Regulator is not properly adjusted for maintaining
a lead-acid battery. Unfortunately, most of the
off-the-shelf regulators for pm alternators do not
offer user adjustments.
Finding a drop-in replacement with friendlier
performance is about your only option. Your
problem is not uncommon and the folks who design,
manufacture and market these products seem oblivious
to the disservice they impose on their customers.
Bob . . .
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