Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:05 AM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Dan Brown)
2. 03:46 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253)
3. 04:12 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253)
4. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253)
6. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com)
7. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Justin Jones)
8. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Kelly McMullen)
9. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Kelly McMullen)
10. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com)
11. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com)
12. 08:35 PM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253)
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
There is a similar note in the Garmin G3X installation manual (Note 14, P.
22-1, Rev. P) that recommends power inputs are connected to an aux battery
or stabilized power input during engine start in order to maintain minimum
LRU input voltage and minimize the chance of the system restarting during
engine cranking.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single
Bus
The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping the
engine with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They recommend
starting the engine on the skyview backup battery so that you can see the
engine instruments and connecting to the ships power after start. What do
they know that we don't?
Rich
In a message dated 1/26/2015 10:11:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 15:20 2015-01-26, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Joe,
>That article rings of a familiar tone. Maybe that where "I was also more
>recently told that modern avionics, with their internal protection, do not
>need such isolation."
>Dan
Actually, the av master was borne on a compelling
but flawed premise . . .
About 1966, when transistors were starting to show
up in aircraft radios (pnp germanium with 30v ratings)
Cessna (and I suspect others . . . don't know for sure
but I was at Cessna) were experiencing a rash of radio
failures in new, ready-to-deliver airplanes . . .
. . .and yes . . . it seems that radios left ON during
engine start were the most affected. It was surmised
that a 'spike' from the starter got 'em. It stood to
good reason. That starter thingy draws hundreds of amps,
was very inductive . . . it HAD to be a potential source
of inductive 'kick back' deleterious to those relatively
fragile.
The Avionics Master was borne . . . and yes . . . the
failures went away. In retrospect, it was not an
inductive 'spike' that got the radios but brownout.
The 'Airplane Patch' east of the plant would park hundreds
of airplanes waiting for delivery . . . none of which had
guaranteed battery integrity . . . a 6v sag to the 14v radio
during a starter 'grunt' was the most likely cause. Further,
while DO-160 (and its predecessors DO-138 and DO-108)
was definitely around, it was not as rigorous with
respect to bus voltage aberrations.
In years since, solid state devices have become very
robust in that they are designed to EXPECT the very
abuse that rolled a NavCom 300 T.U. in 1967.
By the time yours truly was designing transistors into
airplanes in the 1975 time frame, the idea that I would
want to 'take it off the bus' during an engine start
was rather humorous . . . the industry had learned
how to live in the vehicular DC power environment.
It was no big deal . . . yet the seeds of concern for
'spiking' a radio persisted as did the avionics master
switch.
Bob . . .
Bob . . . ========================= Use utilities Day
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
> The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping the engine
with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They recommend starting the
engine on the skyview backup battery so that you can see the engine instruments
and connecting to the ships power after start. What do they know that we don't?
> Rich
Where did you read that? Please post a link to Dynon manual and page.
The Dynon SkyView Pilots User Guide - Revision Q page 2-1 says, "SkyViews robust
power protection allows it to be powered on during engine start."
According to Bob's teachings, there are no high voltage spikes during engine starting.
The only concern is a brownout. Dynon's SkyView automatically switches
to its own backup battery during brownout conditions. No action is required
by the pilot as the power transfer is automatic.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437690#437690
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
Below is a quote from SkyView System Installation Guide - Revision R page 2-5.
> SkyView Can Be On During Engine Start SkyView units incorporate robust power
protection that allows them to be powered on during engine start for full engine
monitoring. SkyView displays require a minimum of 10V, and during engine start,
its common for the electrical system to temporarily drop below 10V. If an
SV-BAT- 320 backup battery is not installed, SkyView may shut off / reboot. If
you wish to monitor your engine prior to engine start, an SV-BAT-320 backup
battery should be installed so that the SkyView display can switch to the SV-BAT-320
when its power inputs are not receiving at least 10V. The SkyView display
will switch from SV-BAT-320 to ships power when its power inputs receive voltage
above 10V.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437692#437692
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping
the engine with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They
recommend starting the engine on the skyview backup battery so that
you can see the engine instruments and connecting to the ships power
after start. What do they know that we don't?
Rich
Keep in mind that we're talking about
two different classes of behavior for
a DC powered appliance:
The most critical being resistance to
environmental effects that cause transient
or even permanent loss of performance.
In the case of 1967 nav/com 300 radios,
the effect was blown power supply
transistors that were not protected against
a brown-out event. Vacuum tubes didn't give
a rip . . . who would have thought that
this new solid state thingy would be so
particular?
The other concern is for operational
availability. All of my designs are vulnerable
to brown-out events below some value of
bus voltage . . . but they come alive
milliseconds after the event. Other
systems are not so light on their feet.
Some years ago we marched through this
forest of thought when the Blue Mountain
products (based on MS Dos as I recall)
demonstrated recovery times of 60 or so
seconds to stand up after falling on the
ground. The system was not damaged by the low-
voltage event but it was temporarily
unavailable.
This is an area of appliance marketing
that many suppliers put their foot into the
tar bucket. A famous supplier who shall
remain nameless actually published a
full-up, two-battery, two-alternator,
split bus system in the back of their
installation manual . . . a 'suggestion'
that went far afield with respect to the
airplane's performance. I have some clients
who have asked me to help craft recommended
applications for their products . . .
requests that I have declined. The reason
is simple. Any supplier is obligated to
define the behavior of their product
in detail.
But refrain from uttering any imperatives
intended to mitigate some temporary loss
of performance event. The DATA says, "This
product may take xx seconds to reboot after
a brown-out event." They should stop right
there. It's up to the system integrator to
decide the operational significance of
that characteristic.
What does Dynon, et als know? Their
gizmo, like all others, will initiate a restart
cycle after a brown-out event. They should tell
you how long that is. They should also mention
that alternative sources of power can be
used to prevent the reboot . . . and stop
right there. But as soon as they venture
into operational imperatives or 'recommendations',
they're assuming responsibility for operational
characteristics of a system over which they
have no design authority or operational control.
I think it was last week that I posed the
question: "What is the imperative for knowing
oil pressure or engine rpm in the first
few seconds after engine start?" I'll
bet there's not a single instructor-pilot
who can articulate an answer based on
simple-ideas . . . but they will be glad
to pass along a legacy operational imperative
handed down from Charles Lindbergh.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
> TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL
REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY
. . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . .
The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine start. It
says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used.
Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent rebooting
during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because rebooting is
annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power will damage
their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their units from the
aircraft electrical system during engine starting.
The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to protect
avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch introduces a
single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
Actually,
That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec.
When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he told me
about starting the engine on the backup battery.
So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus and
you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by the time it
reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading you may have
toasted your engine. Are they just talking about the starting draw decreasing
the voltage to the point of resetting or the transients caused by starting
when they talk about the use of auxiliary power on startup. My understanding,
possibly wrong is that the dynon battery is automatically connected in the
case of low voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover
happen quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does the
small aux battery have the capability to filter it out?
Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM A-200
(not really an ancient radio) state,
"Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been
started. This is important for the protection of the circuit."
If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you from
having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump switches
(located in different places).
Rich
In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
fransew@gmail.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
> TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING,
THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN
AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . .
The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine
start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used.
Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent
rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because
rebooting is annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power
will damage their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their
units from the aircraft electrical system during engine starting.
The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to
protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch
introduces a single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
I would be interested in looking at the circuitry of the standby battery fro
m dynon. Does anyone know if there is a diode that allows current to flow fr
om the standby battery to the dynon but not back into the battery?
Seems that you would either have a need for a replacement standby battery, o
r you would have a need to recharge the dynon battery somehow (if it were re
chargeable) when the standby battery dies.
Justin
> On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:44, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote:
>
> Actually,
>
> That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec. Wh
en I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he told me ab
out starting the engine on the backup battery.
>
> So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus and
you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by the time it
reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading you may have toaste
d your engine. Are they just talking about the starting draw decreasing the v
oltage to the point of resetting or the transients caused by starting when t
hey talk about the use of auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, poss
ibly wrong is that the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case o
f low voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen quickl
y enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does the small aux b
attery have the capability to filter it out?
>
> Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM A-200 (n
ot really an ancient radio) state,
>
> "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been start
ed. This is important for the protection of the circuit."
>
> If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you from ha
ving a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump switches (locat
ed in different places).
>
> Rich
>
> In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, fransew@g
mail.com writes:
>
>
> > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING, T
HE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN AUXIL
IARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . .
>
> The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine star
t. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used.
> Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent r
ebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because reboot
ing is annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power will
damage their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their uni
ts from the aircraft electrical system during engine starting.
> The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to p
rotect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch introd
uces a single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697=====
==========================
===============
==========================
======= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======
==========================
================ - List Contribut
ion Web Site sp; ============
==========================
============
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
I believe you heard the information backwards, since Dynon's printed
manuals up through the current revision of a week ago say to start the
engine with the Dynon on, and mention nothing about starting on a backup
battery. It just says that if you want the EFIS to be on during start
that you should install a Dynon backup battery for the EFIS. The Dynon
itself controls switching to its backup battery, which is connected only
to the Dynon, not to the system buss, and it keeps the Dynon alive while
you are cranking.
Perhaps it is just a communications problem, that what you are trying
to say is what the Dynon manuals say. You crank on the Ship's battery.
The EFIS is kept alive via its backup battery, which isolates the
display from the system buss when voltage drops below its minimum, and
keeps the system up with power from its backup battery.
On 1/27/2015 2:44 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote:
> Actually,
> That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec.
> When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he
> told me about starting the engine on the backup battery.
> So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus
> and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by
> the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading
> you may have toasted your engine. Are they just talking about the
> starting draw decreasing the voltage to the point of resetting or the
> transients caused by starting when they talk about the use of
> auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, possibly wrong is that
> the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case of low
> voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen
> quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does
> the small aux battery have the capability to filter it out?
> Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM
> A-200 (not really an ancient radio) state,
> "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been
> started. This is important for the protection of the circuit."
> If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you
> from having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump
> switches (located in different places).
> Rich
> In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> fransew@gmail.com writes:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com>
>
>
> > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE
> CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE
> CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . .
>
> The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during
> engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used.
> Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will
> prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good
> idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says that
> not having backup power will damage their units. And neither
> company recommends disconnecting their units from the aircraft
> electrical system during engine starting.
> The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master
> switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics
> master switch introduces a single point of failure. If that
> switch fails, avionics go dark.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697==============================================
> ================================================ - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS ================================================ -
> List Contribution Web Site sp;
> ==================================================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
The Dynon backup battery is a rechargable lithium battery of some sort,
which the Dynon Skyview system controls the charging rate, and it maxes
out around 12.2-12.25 volts. It requires you run a battery test at least
once a year to ensure 1 hour of capacity.
On 1/27/2015 3:07 PM, Justin Jones wrote:
> I would be interested in looking at the circuitry of the standby
> battery from dynon. Does anyone know if there is a diode that allows
> current to flow from the standby battery to the dynon but not back
> into the battery?
>
> Seems that you would either have a need for a replacement standby
> battery, or you would have a need to recharge the dynon battery
> somehow (if it were rechargeable) when the standby battery dies.
>
> Justin
>
>
> On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:44, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
> <mailto:ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually,
>> That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's
>> Tec. When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup
>> he told me about starting the engine on the backup battery.
>> So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system
>> bus and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system,
>> by the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure
>> reading you may have toasted your engine. Are they just talking about
>> the starting draw decreasing the voltage to the point of resetting or
>> the transients caused by starting when they talk about the use of
>> auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, possibly wrong is that
>> the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case of low
>> voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen
>> quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does
>> the small aux battery have the capability to filter it out?
>> Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM
>> A-200 (not really an ancient radio) state,
>> "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been
>> started. This is important for the protection of the circuit."
>> If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you
>> from having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump
>> switches (located in different places).
>> Rich
>> In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>> fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE
>> CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE
>> CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . .
>>
>> The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during
>> engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used.
>> Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will
>> prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good
>> idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says
>> that not having backup power will damage their units. And
>> neither company recommends disconnecting their units from the
>> aircraft electrical system during engine starting.
>> The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master
>> switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an
>> avionics master switch introduces a single point of failure. If
>> that switch fails, avionics go dark.
>> Joe
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online = Use utilities Day
>> ================================================ -
>> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
>> ================================================ - List
>> Contribution Web Site sp;
>> ==================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
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Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus |
Here is a link to the http://tinyurl.com/SkyView-User-Guide
Kellym gives a good explanation in a separate thread.
It is not an electronic glitch that reboots the SkyView, but is low voltage caused
by the heavy starter load. Aircraft system voltage during engine cranking
can drop down to 8 volts or so. The Dynon needs 10 volts or else it shuts off.
The SkyView then reboots when the aircraft system rises above 10 volts. But
if the SkyView has a backup battery, it automatically switches to that instead
of rebooting. The switch over is instantaneous. The SkyView, like any electrical
load, will draw current from the highest voltage source that is available.
There are no significant voltage spikes (transients) caused by engine starting
that would cause the SkyView to reboot. The Skyview backup battery is
isolated from the aircraft electrical system and is recharged by the SkyView.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437753#437753
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