---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/27/15: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:05 AM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Dan Brown) 2. 03:46 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253) 3. 04:12 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253) 4. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:49 AM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253) 6. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com) 7. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Justin Jones) 8. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Kelly McMullen) 9. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (Kelly McMullen) 10. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com) 11. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (ARGOLDMAN@aol.com) 12. 08:35 PM - Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:17 AM PST US From: "Dan Brown" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus There is a similar note in the Garmin G3X installation manual (Note 14, P. 22-1, Rev. P) that recommends power inputs are connected to an aux battery or stabilized power input during engine start in order to maintain minimum LRU input voltage and minimize the chance of the system restarting during engine cranking. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 11:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping the engine with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They recommend starting the engine on the skyview backup battery so that you can see the engine instruments and connecting to the ships power after start. What do they know that we don't? Rich In a message dated 1/26/2015 10:11:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: At 15:20 2015-01-26, you wrote: > >Thanks Joe, >That article rings of a familiar tone. Maybe that where "I was also more >recently told that modern avionics, with their internal protection, do not >need such isolation." >Dan Actually, the av master was borne on a compelling but flawed premise . . . About 1966, when transistors were starting to show up in aircraft radios (pnp germanium with 30v ratings) Cessna (and I suspect others . . . don't know for sure but I was at Cessna) were experiencing a rash of radio failures in new, ready-to-deliver airplanes . . . . . .and yes . . . it seems that radios left ON during engine start were the most affected. It was surmised that a 'spike' from the starter got 'em. It stood to good reason. That starter thingy draws hundreds of amps, was very inductive . . . it HAD to be a potential source of inductive 'kick back' deleterious to those relatively fragile. The Avionics Master was borne . . . and yes . . . the failures went away. In retrospect, it was not an inductive 'spike' that got the radios but brownout. The 'Airplane Patch' east of the plant would park hundreds of airplanes waiting for delivery . . . none of which had guaranteed battery integrity . . . a 6v sag to the 14v radio during a starter 'grunt' was the most likely cause. Further, while DO-160 (and its predecessors DO-138 and DO-108) was definitely around, it was not as rigorous with respect to bus voltage aberrations. In years since, solid state devices have become very robust in that they are designed to EXPECT the very abuse that rolled a NavCom 300 T.U. in 1967. By the time yours truly was designing transistors into airplanes in the 1975 time frame, the idea that I would want to 'take it off the bus' during an engine start was rather humorous . . . the industry had learned how to live in the vehicular DC power environment. It was no big deal . . . yet the seeds of concern for 'spiking' a radio persisted as did the avionics master switch. Bob . . . Bob . . . ========================= Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ================================================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:20 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus From: "user9253" > The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping the engine with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They recommend starting the engine on the skyview backup battery so that you can see the engine instruments and connecting to the ships power after start. What do they know that we don't? > Rich Where did you read that? Please post a link to Dynon manual and page. The Dynon SkyView Pilots User Guide - Revision Q page 2-1 says, "SkyViews robust power protection allows it to be powered on during engine start." According to Bob's teachings, there are no high voltage spikes during engine starting. The only concern is a brownout. Dynon's SkyView automatically switches to its own backup battery during brownout conditions. No action is required by the pilot as the power transfer is automatic. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437690#437690 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:31 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus From: "user9253" Below is a quote from SkyView System Installation Guide - Revision R page 2-5. > SkyView Can Be On During Engine Start SkyView units incorporate robust power protection that allows them to be powered on during engine start for full engine monitoring. SkyView displays require a minimum of 10V, and during engine start, its common for the electrical system to temporarily drop below 10V. If an SV-BAT- 320 backup battery is not installed, SkyView may shut off / reboot. If you wish to monitor your engine prior to engine start, an SV-BAT-320 backup battery should be installed so that the SkyView display can switch to the SV-BAT-320 when its power inputs are not receiving at least 10V. The SkyView display will switch from SV-BAT-320 to ships power when its power inputs receive voltage above 10V. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437692#437692 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus The below not withstanding, Dynon recommends starting and stopping the engine with the /Skyview not connected to the ships buss. They recommend starting the engine on the skyview backup battery so that you can see the engine instruments and connecting to the ships power after start. What do they know that we don't? Rich Keep in mind that we're talking about two different classes of behavior for a DC powered appliance: The most critical being resistance to environmental effects that cause transient or even permanent loss of performance. In the case of 1967 nav/com 300 radios, the effect was blown power supply transistors that were not protected against a brown-out event. Vacuum tubes didn't give a rip . . . who would have thought that this new solid state thingy would be so particular? The other concern is for operational availability. All of my designs are vulnerable to brown-out events below some value of bus voltage . . . but they come alive milliseconds after the event. Other systems are not so light on their feet. Some years ago we marched through this forest of thought when the Blue Mountain products (based on MS Dos as I recall) demonstrated recovery times of 60 or so seconds to stand up after falling on the ground. The system was not damaged by the low- voltage event but it was temporarily unavailable. This is an area of appliance marketing that many suppliers put their foot into the tar bucket. A famous supplier who shall remain nameless actually published a full-up, two-battery, two-alternator, split bus system in the back of their installation manual . . . a 'suggestion' that went far afield with respect to the airplane's performance. I have some clients who have asked me to help craft recommended applications for their products . . . requests that I have declined. The reason is simple. Any supplier is obligated to define the behavior of their product in detail. But refrain from uttering any imperatives intended to mitigate some temporary loss of performance event. The DATA says, "This product may take xx seconds to reboot after a brown-out event." They should stop right there. It's up to the system integrator to decide the operational significance of that characteristic. What does Dynon, et als know? Their gizmo, like all others, will initiate a restart cycle after a brown-out event. They should tell you how long that is. They should also mention that alternative sources of power can be used to prevent the reboot . . . and stop right there. But as soon as they venture into operational imperatives or 'recommendations', they're assuming responsibility for operational characteristics of a system over which they have no design authority or operational control. I think it was last week that I posed the question: "What is the imperative for knowing oil pressure or engine rpm in the first few seconds after engine start?" I'll bet there's not a single instructor-pilot who can articulate an answer based on simple-ideas . . . but they will be glad to pass along a legacy operational imperative handed down from Charles Lindbergh. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus From: "user9253" > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . . The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used. Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power will damage their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their units from the aircraft electrical system during engine starting. The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch introduces a single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:24 PM PST US From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus Actually, That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec. When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he told me about starting the engine on the backup battery. So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading you may have toasted your engine. Are they just talking about the starting draw decreasing the voltage to the point of resetting or the transients caused by starting when they talk about the use of auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, possibly wrong is that the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case of low voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does the small aux battery have the capability to filter it out? Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM A-200 (not really an ancient radio) state, "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been started. This is important for the protection of the circuit." If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you from having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump switches (located in different places). Rich In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, fransew@gmail.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . . The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used. Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power will damage their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their units from the aircraft electrical system during engine starting. The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch introduces a single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:09:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus From: Justin Jones I would be interested in looking at the circuitry of the standby battery fro m dynon. Does anyone know if there is a diode that allows current to flow fr om the standby battery to the dynon but not back into the battery? Seems that you would either have a need for a replacement standby battery, o r you would have a need to recharge the dynon battery somehow (if it were re chargeable) when the standby battery dies. Justin > On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:44, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > > Actually, > > That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec. Wh en I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he told me ab out starting the engine on the backup battery. > > So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading you may have toaste d your engine. Are they just talking about the starting draw decreasing the v oltage to the point of resetting or the transients caused by starting when t hey talk about the use of auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, poss ibly wrong is that the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case o f low voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen quickl y enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does the small aux b attery have the capability to filter it out? > > Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM A-200 (n ot really an ancient radio) state, > > "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been start ed. This is important for the protection of the circuit." > > If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you from ha ving a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump switches (locat ed in different places). > > Rich > > In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, fransew@g mail.com writes: > > > > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE CRANKING, T HE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE CONNECTED TO AN AUXIL IARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . . > > The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during engine star t. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used. > Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will prevent r ebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good idea because reboot ing is annoying. But neither company says that not having backup power will damage their units. And neither company recommends disconnecting their uni ts from the aircraft electrical system during engine starting. > The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master switch to p rotect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics master switch introd uces a single point of failure. If that switch fails, avionics go dark. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697===== ========================== =============== ========================== ======= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ====== ========================== ================ - List Contribut ion Web Site sp; ============ ========================== ============ > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:53 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus I believe you heard the information backwards, since Dynon's printed manuals up through the current revision of a week ago say to start the engine with the Dynon on, and mention nothing about starting on a backup battery. It just says that if you want the EFIS to be on during start that you should install a Dynon backup battery for the EFIS. The Dynon itself controls switching to its backup battery, which is connected only to the Dynon, not to the system buss, and it keeps the Dynon alive while you are cranking. Perhaps it is just a communications problem, that what you are trying to say is what the Dynon manuals say. You crank on the Ship's battery. The EFIS is kept alive via its backup battery, which isolates the display from the system buss when voltage drops below its minimum, and keeps the system up with power from its backup battery. On 1/27/2015 2:44 PM, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com wrote: > Actually, > That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's Tec. > When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup he > told me about starting the engine on the backup battery. > So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system bus > and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, by > the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure reading > you may have toasted your engine. Are they just talking about the > starting draw decreasing the voltage to the point of resetting or the > transients caused by starting when they talk about the use of > auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, possibly wrong is that > the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case of low > voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen > quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does > the small aux battery have the capability to filter it out? > Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM > A-200 (not really an ancient radio) state, > "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been > started. This is important for the protection of the circuit." > If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you > from having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump > switches (located in different places). > Rich > In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, > fransew@gmail.com writes: > > > > > > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE > CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE > CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . . > > The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during > engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used. > Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will > prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good > idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says that > not having backup power will damage their units. And neither > company recommends disconnecting their units from the aircraft > electrical system during engine starting. > The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master > switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an avionics > master switch introduces a single point of failure. If that > switch fails, avionics go dark. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437697#437697============================================== > ================================================ - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS ================================================ - > List Contribution Web Site sp; > ================================================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:13 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus The Dynon backup battery is a rechargable lithium battery of some sort, which the Dynon Skyview system controls the charging rate, and it maxes out around 12.2-12.25 volts. It requires you run a battery test at least once a year to ensure 1 hour of capacity. On 1/27/2015 3:07 PM, Justin Jones wrote: > I would be interested in looking at the circuitry of the standby > battery from dynon. Does anyone know if there is a diode that allows > current to flow from the standby battery to the dynon but not back > into the battery? > > Seems that you would either have a need for a replacement standby > battery, or you would have a need to recharge the dynon battery > somehow (if it were rechargeable) when the standby battery dies. > > Justin > > > On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:44, ARGOLDMAN@aol.com > wrote: > >> Actually, >> That information came from a conversation that I had with Dynon's >> Tec. When I asked him how do I monitor my oil pressure ect on startup >> he told me about starting the engine on the backup battery. >> So if you start the engine with the skyview attached to the system >> bus and you get the electronic glitch that would reboot your system, >> by the time it reboots and is able to give you an oil pressure >> reading you may have toasted your engine. Are they just talking about >> the starting draw decreasing the voltage to the point of resetting or >> the transients caused by starting when they talk about the use of >> auxiliary power on startup. My understanding, possibly wrong is that >> the dynon battery is automatically connected in the case of low >> voltage. If low voltage is the case, does the switchover happen >> quickly enough to prevent the reboot? If a transient situation does >> the small aux battery have the capability to filter it out? >> Additionally the installation/operation instructions for the ICOM >> A-200 (not really an ancient radio) state, >> "Do not turn the power on until after the aircraft engines have been >> started. This is important for the protection of the circuit." >> If you are concerned about single point failure, nothing stops you >> from having a duplicate avionics switch. I have duplicate fuel pump >> switches (located in different places). >> Rich >> In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:50:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, >> fransew@gmail.com writes: >> >> > >> >> >> > TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THE SYSTEM RESETTING DURING ENGINE >> CRANKING, THE OPTIONAL REDUNDANT (DIODE OR'D) POWER INPUTS MAY BE >> CONNECTED TO AN AUXILIARY BATTERY . . .OR STABILIZED POWER INPUT. . . >> >> The Garmin manual does not recommend using backup power during >> engine start. It says that OPTIONAL backup power MAY be used. >> Both Garmin and Dynon say that having optional backup power will >> prevent rebooting during engine cranking, which I think is a good >> idea because rebooting is annoying. But neither company says >> that not having backup power will damage their units. And >> neither company recommends disconnecting their units from the >> aircraft electrical system during engine starting. >> The point that I am trying to make is that an avionics master >> switch to protect avionics is unnecessary. Installing an >> avionics master switch introduces a single point of failure. If >> that switch fails, avionics go dark. >> Joe >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online = Use utilities Day >> ================================================ - >> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS >> ================================================ - List >> Contribution Web Site sp; >> ================================================== >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:15 PM PST US From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator, Dual Battery, Single Bus RHlub24tLXBlcnNvbmFsIGNvbnRhY3Qgd2l0aCB0aGUgZHlub24gdGVjaCByZXAgd2hlbiBJIHdh cyBkZXNpZ25pbmcgdGhlICANCmVsZWN0cmljYWwgb2YgbXkgY3JhZnQuDQogDQpJY29tIGZyb20g dGhlIGluc3RhbGxhdGlvbiBtYW51YWwNCiANClJpY2gNCiANCiANCkluIGEgbWVzc2FnZSBkYXRl ZCAxLzI3LzIwMTUgNTo0NzoxMiBBLk0uIENlbnRyYWwgU3RhbmRhcmQgVGltZSwgIA0KZnJhbnNl d0BnbWFpbC5jb20gd3JpdGVzOg0KDQotLT4gIEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9z 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Dual Battery, Single Bus From: "user9253" Here is a link to the http://tinyurl.com/SkyView-User-Guide Kellym gives a good explanation in a separate thread. It is not an electronic glitch that reboots the SkyView, but is low voltage caused by the heavy starter load. Aircraft system voltage during engine cranking can drop down to 8 volts or so. The Dynon needs 10 volts or else it shuts off. The SkyView then reboots when the aircraft system rises above 10 volts. But if the SkyView has a backup battery, it automatically switches to that instead of rebooting. The switch over is instantaneous. The SkyView, like any electrical load, will draw current from the highest voltage source that is available. There are no significant voltage spikes (transients) caused by engine starting that would cause the SkyView to reboot. The Skyview backup battery is isolated from the aircraft electrical system and is recharged by the SkyView. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437753#437753 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.