Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
2. 05:51 AM - Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
3. 06:19 AM - Re: GRT autopilot servo wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:40 AM - Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
5. 06:56 AM - Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Carl Froehlich)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
7. 07:17 AM - Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: Failing over voltage module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:22 AM - Re: Failing over voltage module (Rob Henderson)
10. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (B Tomm)
11. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Tim Olson)
12. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Ralph E. Capen)
13. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Kelly McMullen)
14. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 01:19 PM - Stopped Prop? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Stuart Ashley)
17. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Tim Olson)
18. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay (Robert Borger)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay |
Anyone else using an Infinity grip switch to actuate a S702 starter relay?
According to the specs of the Infinity grip switches, the contacts are rated at
6Amp.
>From the B and C site, the S702 has a 2.5Ohm coil - so the math at 14volts works
out
to 5.6Amps...and that would be a max since the battery would provide less at cranking
time.
The numbers say it should be OK - I'm looking to find out if anyone is doing it
for
real - and how is it working for you?
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter |
relay
Interesting - I'll look in to this....
How many are out there interfacing the Infinity grip switch to the Starter relay?
Still want to hear if anyone is using my stated configuration though....
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 8:30 AM
>To: "rv-list@matronics.com" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com>
>
>Ralph. I would recommend you look at our Smartstart module for doing this function
if you want to use the stick grip switch to drive the start contactor.
The switches used in the stick grip may be rated at 6 amps, but that would be
for a resistive load. The start contactor is an inductive load and has a significantly
different effect in switches than a pure resistor.
>Additionally, our module has a built in one minute timer and an interlock feature,
making the stick grip starting concept safer and more useful.
>
>All the info is at www.tcwtech.com
>
>
>Bob Newman
>TCW Technologies, LLC
>610-928-3420
>
>> On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>> Anyone else using an Infinity grip switch to actuate a S702 starter relay?
>>
>> According to the specs of the Infinity grip switches, the contacts are rated
at 6Amp.
>>> From the B and C site, the S702 has a 2.5Ohm coil - so the math at 14volts
works out
>> to 5.6Amps...and that would be a max since the battery would provide less at
cranking
>> time.
>>
>> The numbers say it should be OK - I'm looking to find out if anyone is doing
it for
>> real - and how is it working for you?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ralph Capen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: GRT autopilot servo wiring |
At 21:41 2015-03-02, you wrote:
After hours searching the net, stumbled on your ad for 22awg triple
twisted pair shielded tefzel wire.
Is the price $3.50 per 10ft increment, or $3.50/ft in 10ft
increments, or is it in 10ft pieces? I need about 50 ft.
Perfect! Except GRT sez 20awg for power and ground in their servo
schematic. Wire runs are about 20 & 25 ft.
Can I run extra 18awg outside the shield to augment power and ground?
That was 3.50/10=foot increment or 0.35/ft. I still have
some of that wire and we can talk about it if it proves
useful and necessary to your task.
GRT and others say not to run next to antenna coax because of
magnetic coupling to serial I/O wires..
There is no foundation in physics for this assertion. It's
a "ol' mechanics tale" that may indeed have roots in a
EXPERIENCE wherein interference problems manifested due
to (1) poorly installed antenna system and/or (2) failure
of the victimized appliance to possess certain levels
of immunity to such interference. That's what DO-160
is all about. If all systems are designed and installed
with a rudimentary understanding of antagonist/victim
relationships, proximity of system wires adjacent to
coax feeders is not the stuff from which bad dreams
are made.
GRT schematic says max 2 ft max for 20 awg ground, use 12 or 14 for
20 ft max run. Just the ground???
Your skepticism is not without foundation . . .
Can you give me a link to download the installation
manuals for the GRT products?
Seawind sez signals through the hollow left longeron and noisy power
items through the right longeron.
I spent 45 years herding electrons in everything from
C-150 to BE-800 and I can tell you that I've never
encountered a situation where, in spite of observing
a few basic rules, a 'noisy' wire was tormenting
'signal wires' due to a failure-to-separate by
the folks who had the duty of getting wires from
one place to the other on the airframe. The challenges
just to find volume and pathways were not trivial.
DO-160 and dozens of similar design standards
relieved us of the burden for identifying and accommodating
noisy/signal wires that shared the same airframe.
I have been avoiding electrical wire in the tunnel beneath the floor
which carries 5 1/2" fuel lines, 6 control cables, 6 push/pull
cables, 3" heater duct, and one Halon fire suppression tube so far...
Is the space getting full? Are there mechanical
issues for achieving good support of wire bundles
that share the space?
Fuel boost and bilge pump are in there too,but can be routed out
sideways. I guess I can grit my aging teeth and run the servo wires
through the tunnel, crossing things like the strobe and alternator
wires at right angles.
Due to replacing composite stabilizer with larger graphite unit, VOR
dipoles are at the wingtips. Their coax shares the bundle with AOA
tubes, pitot tube, camera coax, landing light, nav light, Aileron
Trim, Flap position, Facet pump, and STROBE wire. Will the shielded
strobe wire screw up the VOR or Aileron trim?
No reason for them to . . .
The data from the EIS unit mounted in the fuselage the engine
transmits all the engine data forward through one serial wire (no
serial in)--If shielded autopilot servo twisted pairs are so twitchy
next to com antennae coax, shouldn't this lone wire also be shielded?
EXCELLENT observation and question!!! Modern ground
based vehicles run twisted pair, high speed data
all over the vehicle with virtually zero notice paid
to shielding or separation. I cannot speak to the
talents of the EIS designers but I can assert that
any misgivings they or anyone else might voice
are the products of poor understanding of the
nature of 'noise' and how easy it is to design
for worst case.
Let me see the installation data for the servos
and let's resolve your shielded wire procurement
question first.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter |
relay
Linn,
Good points made!
I currently have it on a relay that the hand-grip activates with a safety interlock
switch - my line of thinking is to simplify by removing the relay and driving it
direct.
My initial line of thinking for putting it on the hand-grip was for an in-flight
restart -
which would require one hand on the stick while the other works throttle and mixture.
What I currently have works very well - but it is complex and I am trying to simplify...
Looking for evidence of the problem you alluded to.
Thanks,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Linn Walters <flying-nut@cfl.rr.com>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:20 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut@cfl.rr.com>
>
>Ralph, you may find some folks that are using the infinity switch direct
>for the starter contactor but our fleet is relatively young. Problems
>won't surface 'till down the road a ways. My start switch is is on the
>key so I didn't have your same situation. However, it's far better to
>wire in a relay now than later, IMHO.
>
>My question is why put the starter on the grip anyway? You only use it
>once each flight and typically don't need to have your hand on the grip
>at that time. Plus, what keeps you from accidentally hitting that
>switch while you're in the air???
>Linn
>
>On 3/3/2015 8:48 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>> Interesting - I'll look in to this....
>> How many are out there interfacing the Infinity grip switch to the Starter relay?
>>
>> Still want to hear if anyone is using my stated configuration though....
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com>
>>> Sent: Mar 3, 2015 8:30 AM
>>> To: "rv-list@matronics.com" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com>
>>>
>>> Ralph. I would recommend you look at our Smartstart module for doing this
function if you want to use the stick grip switch to drive the start contactor.
The switches used in the stick grip may be rated at 6 amps, but that would
be for a resistive load. The start contactor is an inductive load and has
a significantly different effect in switches than a pure resistor.
>>> Additionally, our module has a built in one minute timer and an interlock feature,
making the stick grip starting concept safer and more useful.
>>>
>>> All the info is at www.tcwtech.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob Newman
>>> TCW Technologies, LLC
>>> 610-928-3420
>>>
>>>> On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone else using an Infinity grip switch to actuate a S702 starter relay?
>>>>
>>>> According to the specs of the Infinity grip switches, the contacts are rated
at 6Amp.
>>>>> From the B and C site, the S702 has a 2.5Ohm coil - so the math at 14volts
works out
>>>> to 5.6Amps...and that would be a max since the battery would provide less
at cranking
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> The numbers say it should be OK - I'm looking to find out if anyone is doing
it for
>>>> real - and how is it working for you?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ralph Capen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter |
relay
Ralph,
On the RV-8A the first version had the bottom push button on the stick being
the start button, providing power to the starter solenoid. This button does
not have the capacity to operate the starter solenoid directly. I installed
a small 12VDC relay (100ma coil, ~$1.50 from Allied Electronics) in the
circuit such that the stick button operated the relay, the relay then
provided power to the starter solenoid.
But - this setup was quickly changed as twice during the first flights I
inadvertently bumped the stick start button while the engine was running. I
kept the relay set up and just added a small momentary pushbutton out of the
way at the top of the right side switch/breaker panel to use instead of the
stick button.
On the RV-10 I just used the standard 10amp panel pushbutton for engine
start to directly provide power to the starter solenoid.
Bottom line - recommend not using the stick buttons to operate the starter
solenoid.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 8:08 AM
Subject: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Anyone else using an Infinity grip switch to actuate a S702 starter relay?
According to the specs of the Infinity grip switches, the contacts are rated
at 6Amp.
>From the B and C site, the S702 has a 2.5Ohm coil - so the math at
>14volts works out
to 5.6Amps...and that would be a max since the battery would provide less at
cranking time.
The numbers say it should be OK - I'm looking to find out if anyone is doing
it for real - and how is it working for you?
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter |
relay
Carl,
Thanks for your input.
I have a secondary safety switch to prevent the accidental activation along
with the relay like you described currently installed.
My intent was to simplify by removing the relay. Sounds like my best bet
is to leave it as is! It works great for me.....
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:54 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com, aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
>
>Ralph,
>
>On the RV-8A the first version had the bottom push button on the stick being
>the start button, providing power to the starter solenoid. This button does
>not have the capacity to operate the starter solenoid directly. I installed
>a small 12VDC relay (100ma coil, ~$1.50 from Allied Electronics) in the
>circuit such that the stick button operated the relay, the relay then
>provided power to the starter solenoid.
>
>But - this setup was quickly changed as twice during the first flights I
>inadvertently bumped the stick start button while the engine was running. I
>kept the relay set up and just added a small momentary pushbutton out of the
>way at the top of the right side switch/breaker panel to use instead of the
>stick button.
>
>On the RV-10 I just used the standard 10amp panel pushbutton for engine
>start to directly provide power to the starter solenoid.
>
>Bottom line - recommend not using the stick buttons to operate the starter
>solenoid.
>
>Carl
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
>Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 8:08 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; rv-list
>Subject: RV-List: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>
>
>Anyone else using an Infinity grip switch to actuate a S702 starter relay?
>
>According to the specs of the Infinity grip switches, the contacts are rated
>at 6Amp.
>>From the B and C site, the S702 has a 2.5Ohm coil - so the math at
>>14volts works out
>to 5.6Amps...and that would be a max since the battery would provide less at
>cranking time.
>
>The numbers say it should be OK - I'm looking to find out if anyone is doing
>it for real - and how is it working for you?
>
>Thanks,
>Ralph Capen
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 |
starter relay
David,
Thanks for the info. I'll probably leave mine as is since the relay and safety
switch work well!
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:53 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>
>I agree with Linn and others concerning the need for a relay. I wish I had used
one of my Infinity Grip buttons for starting. I do want to hold the stick when
starting, and I find that for activating my start button, manipulating mixture
and throttle, and holding the stick, I am short one hand. (especially starting
when the engine is hot) In my case, the VP-200 would take care of the issue
of activating the starter when you don't want it activated. Otherwise, I would
use Bob's TcwTech start protection switch.
>
>--------
>David Maib
>RV-10 #40559
>New Smyrna Beach, FL
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438936#438936
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Failing over voltage module |
At 10:10 2015-02-23, you wrote:
><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>At 00:10 2015-02-23, you wrote:
>>Bob
>>Thanks for taking a look at it.
>>The breaker has not tripped since I removed the OV , it's been
>>about an hour of flight time since removal. Previously the breaker
>>would trip after a few minutes.
>>Yes I can wait for the new model.
Parts were in yesterday. Will do the final assembly
tests and get it into the mail today.
I'm still mystified as to why you were getting trips
in a battery only condition . . . with the alternator
switch OFF, the ov module should be disconnected.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Failing over voltage module |
Bob
Did you see the drawing I sent ?
It shows the main battery switch and alt field on 1 double pole single throw
switch
The battery and alt field will be on at the same time
I will use the pullable breaker to remove the alternator from the system if
needed.
Thanks
-Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Failing over voltage module
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 10:10 2015-02-23, you wrote:
><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>At 00:10 2015-02-23, you wrote:
>>Bob
>>Thanks for taking a look at it.
>>The breaker has not tripped since I removed the OV , it's been about
>>an hour of flight time since removal. Previously the breaker would
>>trip after a few minutes.
>>Yes I can wait for the new model.
Parts were in yesterday. Will do the final assembly
tests and get it into the mail today.
I'm still mystified as to why you were getting trips
in a battery only condition . . . with the alternator
switch OFF, the ov module should be disconnected.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 |
starter relay
Is in-flight restart really necessary? What I mean is, won't the prop
continue to windmill negating the need for the starter? Have you pulled the
mixture and tried to stop the prop (at altitude of course)?
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E.
Capen
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 7:17 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving
S702 starter relay
--> <recapen@earthlink.net>
David,
Thanks for the info. I'll probably leave mine as is since the relay and
safety switch work well!
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:53 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>
>I agree with Linn and others concerning the need for a relay. I wish I had
used one of my Infinity Grip buttons for starting. I do want to hold the
stick when starting, and I find that for activating my start button,
manipulating mixture and throttle, and holding the stick, I am short one
hand. (especially starting when the engine is hot) In my case, the VP-200
would take care of the issue of activating the starter when you don't want
it activated. Otherwise, I would use Bob's TcwTech start protection switch.
>
>--------
>David Maib
>RV-10 #40559
>New Smyrna Beach, FL
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438936#438936
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
I know in my case I've done complete mixture cut-off tests
in the plane where I've stopped the engine completely,
and also flown it dry on tanks for testing, and the prop
keeps spinning so fast that you may even perceive that
the engine is still making power. You just feel the loss
of thrust. So unless you happen to pull the nose up and
near-stall the plane, I doubt the starter will ever need to
be cranked to re-start. For me, as soon as the fuel
supply was there again, it roared back to life.
Also, the start operation isn't *that* complicated.
I understand the want to have a hand on the stick
and one on the throttle/mixture, but my knees do a fine
job of holding the stick for a normal start.
Additionally, if the plane is in trim, I don't see
the worry about holding the stick with a hand
while doing that once-in-a-hundred-years in-flight
restart that you may do. The knees would do ok
there too, but in actuality, you're not going to be
manipulating the mixture and throttle much if you're
doing an in-flight start. It's not like you'll be
doing a hot-start procedure at 7,000'.
Tim
On 3/3/2015 12:53 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>
> Is in-flight restart really necessary? What I mean is, won't the prop
> continue to windmill negating the need for the starter? Have you pulled the
> mixture and tried to stop the prop (at altitude of course)?
>
> Bevan
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
I have done the "empty tank at altitude" test...yes, the prop kept turning...and
it relit as soon as fuel got to it after I switched to the other tank. Barring
a forced physical engine stoppage, my recent understanding is that you need
to get real slow for the prop to stop (haven't tried it myself). I have a three
blade MT which might make more of a difference.....
I built it that way since I had heard of inflight restarts - don't remember the
reasons...a gozillion years ago for that part of the design and build. Meanwhile,
what I have works so I'll not fix it (as others have reminded me)!
-----Original Message-----
>From: B Tomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 1:53 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving
S702 starter relay
>
>
>Is in-flight restart really necessary? What I mean is, won't the prop
>continue to windmill negating the need for the starter? Have you pulled the
>mixture and tried to stop the prop (at altitude of course)?
>
>Bevan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E.
>Capen
>Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 7:17 AM
>To: rv-list; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving
>S702 starter relay
>
>--> <recapen@earthlink.net>
>
>
>David,
>
>Thanks for the info. I'll probably leave mine as is since the relay and
>safety switch work well!
>
>Ralph
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>>Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:53 AM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>>
>>I agree with Linn and others concerning the need for a relay. I wish I had
>used one of my Infinity Grip buttons for starting. I do want to hold the
>stick when starting, and I find that for activating my start button,
>manipulating mixture and throttle, and holding the stick, I am short one
>hand. (especially starting when the engine is hot) In my case, the VP-200
>would take care of the issue of activating the starter when you don't want
>it activated. Otherwise, I would use Bob's TcwTech start protection switch.
>>
>>--------
>>David Maib
>>RV-10 #40559
>>New Smyrna Beach, FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438936#438936
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
I guess I am missing the need for any of this. In flight use of
starter?? Maybe if you had a full feathering prop, otherwise the prop is
your starter, just push the nose over. Need to hold stick while
starting? Unless you are facing into winds that approach rotation
speed, what does holding the stick accomplish? While some like switches
for mags.EI and a button for starting, the old twist to start ignition
switch does simply things a lot. Unless you have 3 hands, you are always
going to need one to activate starter and one on the throttle/mixture
knobs. I guess having button on stick lets you use one hand to holde
stick and activate starter with the other on throttle, but I still don't
see the need to hold the stick. It is the brakes that will hold the
plane from going anywhere. If wind is strong enough to need stick input,
you probably need wing walkers to keep the wing tips and wheels near the
ground.
On 3/3/2015 8:16 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for the info. I'll probably leave mine as is since the relay and safety
switch work well!
>
> Ralph
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>> Sent: Mar 3, 2015 9:53 AM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving S702 starter relay
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "dmaib@me.com" <dmaib@me.com>
>>
>> I agree with Linn and others concerning the need for a relay. I wish I had used
one of my Infinity Grip buttons for starting. I do want to hold the stick
when starting, and I find that for activating my start button, manipulating mixture
and throttle, and holding the stick, I am short one hand. (especially starting
when the engine is hot) In my case, the VP-200 would take care of the issue
of activating the starter when you don't want it activated. Otherwise, I
would use Bob's TcwTech start protection switch.
>>
>> --------
>> David Maib
>> RV-10 #40559
>> New Smyrna Beach, FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438936#438936
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
At 13:13 2015-03-03, you wrote:
>
>I know in my case I've done complete mixture cut-off tests
>in the plane where I've stopped the engine completely,
>and also flown it dry on tanks for testing, and the prop
>keeps spinning so fast that you may even perceive that
>the engine is still making power.
Been there, done that too . . . many times. I've
been given to understand that many power plants
with geared props may not windmill that way.
Never had a chance to fly one and find out.
I wonder if the geared engines on the C-175
would have demonstrated this characteristic.
But as you mentioned, going through the
necessary re-start processes at altitude
is generally not a series of events accomplished
with great urgency. My youngest son was secretly
worried about the engine stopping during
the earliest years of our flying experiences
together. When I found out about it, I
demonstrated the physics of the matter at
altitude over southern Kansas. It got a bit quieter,
but it wasn't really clear to the neophyte
that the engine wasn't producing power. So
in addition to throttle closed, mixture
at cutoff, I turned off the mags and handed
him the keys.
We then did some maneuvers and took note of
our rate of descent. Told him I could finish
my Coke before things would get really
tense.
IGN . . . ON.
Throttle . . . FULL.
Mixture . . . Advance.
Sho' 'nuf, all things were right with
the universe.
Perception is everything. But perception
based on bad physics is at best useless;
at worst dangerous. I worry about the human
factors of adding starter buttons to the
stick for the purpose of expediting
a start while airborne. If you're at
so low an altitude that time is truly
of the essence . . . then perhaps
one is better advised to concentrate on
pilotage as opposed to systems analysis
and recovery.
The #1 cause of engine stoppage is fuel
exhaustion. The probability of having
an engine failure in departure configuration
is very low . . . the likelihood of 'fixing'
the problem is poor while distracting
the pilot from more pressing concerns
. . . like walking away from the landing.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Good Afternoon 'Lectric Bob,
As an old glider instructor and tow pilot, I have spent quite a bit of time
trying to get a prop stopped in flight. There are a few that will stop
with no heroics once the go juice is taken away, but most are very hard to
make stop turning. A Piper Cub with a wood prop can be stopped relatively
easily by slipping a bit just before it stalls. With a metal prop, it may or
may not be able to get it stopped.
On early Bonanzas, I was almost always able to get it stopped by placing
the electric prop for maximum pitch, minimum RPM. That did not ALWAYS work,
but it did often enough that I was able to demonstrate soaring flight in a
Bonanza on days where the lift was excellent.
Soaring a Bonanza will convince most would be glider pilots that there is a
lot of rising air out there if you know how to find it. I have been unable
to get my current IO-550-B engine to stop spinning regardless of how hard
I have tried.
Obviously, such shenanigans should only be undertaken where conditions are
extremely favorable!
One of our granddaughters has a Legend Cub powered by the Jabiru engine.
That bugger will quit on final unless the power is set so high that it
stretches the glide on final!!?
As Always, It All Depends!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/3/2015 2:28:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 13:13 2015-03-03, you wrote:
>
>I know in my case I've done complete mixture cut-off tests
>in the plane where I've stopped the engine completely,
>and also flown it dry on tanks for testing, and the prop
>keeps spinning so fast that you may even perceive that
>the engine is still making power.
Been there, done that too . . . many times. I've
been given to understand that many power plants
with geared props may not windmill that way.
Never had a chance to fly one and find out.
I wonder if the geared engines on the C-175
would have demonstrated this characteristic.
But as you mentioned, going through the
necessary re-start processes at altitude
is generally not a series of events accomplished
with great urgency. My youngest son was secretly
worried about the engine stopping during
the earliest years of our flying experiences
together. When I found out about it, I
demonstrated the physics of the matter at
altitude over southern Kansas. It got a bit quieter,
but it wasn't really clear to the neophyte
that the engine wasn't producing power. So
in addition to throttle closed, mixture
at cutoff, I turned off the mags and handed
him the keys.
We then did some maneuvers and took note of
our rate of descent. Told him I could finish
my Coke before things would get really
tense.
IGN . . . ON.
Throttle . . . FULL.
Mixture . . . Advance.
Sho' 'nuf, all things were right with
the universe.
Perception is everything. But perception
based on bad physics is at best useless;
at worst dangerous. I worry about the human
factors of adding starter buttons to the
stick for the purpose of expediting
a start while airborne. If you're at
so low an altitude that time is truly
of the essence . . . then perhaps
one is better advised to concentrate on
pilotage as opposed to systems analysis
and recovery.
The #1 cause of engine stoppage is fuel
exhaustion. The probability of having
an engine failure in departure configuration
is very low . . . the likelihood of 'fixing'
the problem is poor while distracting
the pilot from more pressing concerns
. . . like walking away from the landing.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
Hi Tim;
In general, a direct drive will keep turning down to quite a slow air
speed. On the other hand, many reduced drives (gear, belt) will stop dead
in their tracks. If may restart by diving to pick up speed, altitude
permitting, of course.
Cheers! Stu.
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> I know in my case I've done complete mixture cut-off tests
> in the plane where I've stopped the engine completely,
> and also flown it dry on tanks for testing, and the prop
> keeps spinning so fast that you may even perceive that
> the engine is still making power. You just feel the loss
> of thrust. So unless you happen to pull the nose up and
> near-stall the plane, I doubt the starter will ever need to
> be cranked to re-start. For me, as soon as the fuel
> supply was there again, it roared back to life.
> Also, the start operation isn't *that* complicated.
> I understand the want to have a hand on the stick
> and one on the throttle/mixture, but my knees do a fine
> job of holding the stick for a normal start.
> Additionally, if the plane is in trim, I don't see
> the worry about holding the stick with a hand
> while doing that once-in-a-hundred-years in-flight
> restart that you may do. The knees would do ok
> there too, but in actuality, you're not going to be
> manipulating the mixture and throttle much if you're
> doing an in-flight start. It's not like you'll be
> doing a hot-start procedure at 7,000'.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 3/3/2015 12:53 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>
>>
>> Is in-flight restart really necessary? What I mean is, won't the prop
>> continue to windmill negating the need for the starter? Have you pulled
>> the
>> mixture and tried to stop the prop (at altitude of course)?
>>
>> Bevan
>>
>>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
Yes, I've heard that today. On the upside, there aren't many gear drive RV'
s that I know of so I think for most of the people on the thread it's a moot
point but there definitely are different cases.
Tim
> On Mar 3, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Stuart Ashley <ashleysc@broadstripe.net> wrote
:
>
> Hi Tim;
> In general, a direct drive will keep turning down to quite a slow air spee
d. On the other hand, many reduced drives (gear, belt) will stop dead in th
eir tracks. If may restart by diving to pick up speed, altitude permitting,
of course.
> Cheers! Stu.
>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>>
>> I know in my case I've done complete mixture cut-off tests
>> in the plane where I've stopped the engine completely,
>> and also flown it dry on tanks for testing, and the prop
>> keeps spinning so fast that you may even perceive that
>> the engine is still making power. You just feel the loss
>> of thrust. So unless you happen to pull the nose up and
>> near-stall the plane, I doubt the starter will ever need to
>> be cranked to re-start. For me, as soon as the fuel
>> supply was there again, it roared back to life.
>> Also, the start operation isn't *that* complicated.
>> I understand the want to have a hand on the stick
>> and one on the throttle/mixture, but my knees do a fine
>> job of holding the stick for a normal start.
>> Additionally, if the plane is in trim, I don't see
>> the worry about holding the stick with a hand
>> while doing that once-in-a-hundred-years in-flight
>> restart that you may do. The knees would do ok
>> there too, but in actuality, you're not going to be
>> manipulating the mixture and throttle much if you're
>> doing an in-flight start. It's not like you'll be
>> doing a hot-start procedure at 7,000'.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>> On 3/3/2015 12:53 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>
>>> Is in-flight restart really necessary? What I mean is, won't the prop
>>> continue to windmill negating the need for the starter? Have you pulled
the
>>> mixture and tried to stop the prop (at altitude of course)?
>>>
>>> Bevan
>>
>> =========================
>> -
>> Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroE
lectric-List
>> =========================
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
>
>
>
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>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Re: Infinity grip switch driving |
S702 starter relay
Tim,
The RV-12 is powered by a Rotax engine which has a gear reduction drive. So it
may be of interest to that group.
I have run the main tank dry in my Rotax 914 powered Europa and the engine continued
to turn over while I switched tanks. Immediately upon switching to the
reserve tank the engine restarted. I didnt even have time to turn on the boost
pump.
I havent tested this but I have been told that if the prop stops on a Rotax 9xx
engine, you can not restart it by diving to pick up speed. Once it stops the
only way to restart is with the starter. Like I said, I havent tested this nor
am I likely to intentionally test it. YMMV.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:57 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
Yes, I've heard that today. On the upside, there aren't many gear drive RV's that
I know of so I think for most of the people on the thread it's a moot point
but there definitely are different cases.
Tim
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