Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:44 AM - Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question (user9253)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: Shorted battery caused crash (user9253)
3. 07:54 AM - Aviation Microphone Feeding Consumer Electronics (Jared Yates)
4. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: Shorted battery caused crash (Charlie England)
5. 09:22 AM - 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Richard Girard)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Jared Yates)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Eric Page)
8. 09:44 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Eric Page)
9. 09:48 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Daniel Hooper)
10. 09:48 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (Bill Putney)
11. 10:33 AM - Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket (John Rheney)
12. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question (Justin Jones)
13. 02:23 PM - Re: solar charger (Eric M. Jones)
14. 03:18 PM - Re: Shorted battery caused crash (user9253)
15. 03:53 PM - Re: solar charger (David Lloyd)
16. 05:18 PM - Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:33 PM - Re: solar charger (dj45)
18. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Shorted battery caused crash (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: Shorted battery caused crash (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 08:00 PM - Re: Shorted battery caused crash (user9253)
21. 08:07 PM - Re: Shorted battery caused crash (user9253)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question |
The Dynon Skyview installation guide shows 3 possible locations for an ammeter
shunt. See page 7-52.
http://tinyurl.com/Dynon-Install-Guide
I never thought that a battery ammeter was very useful until reading about this
accident.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16757524
A battery ammeter might have helped the pilot realize why the aircraft system voltage
was dropping so fast. He then could have opened the battery contactor
before the engine quit.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439356#439356
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
The pilot of the the accident airplane emailed to me the following:
> The magazine article is not correct, I did have a disconnect system in place.
However the failure occurred so fast (I could literally see my volt meter dropping),
that I could not trouble shoot the problem quickly enough. The primary
battery rapidly depleted the secondary battery and even overwhelmed the alternator
output. If I recall correctly, the fuel injectors quit operating at around
10.5 volts and that happened in a couple of minutes.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439357#439357
Message 3
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| Subject: | Aviation Microphone Feeding Consumer Electronics |
I've been tinkering with cutting apart one of these to integrate into my
audio system in a modular way:
http://www.amazon.com/Streambot-Wireless-Bluetooth-Streaming-Receiver/dp/B00MJMV0GU
My plan is to put the circuit board into a little enclosure with a d-sub
connector on the side, making the bluetooth module easy to replace if it
dies or as improved models become available, as they seem to very often.
Then the airplane wiring will have a mating dsub with leads for power
(switched on/off at the panel), ground, outgoing audio to the airplane's
audio system, and two leads for a panel-mounted push button switch that
will replace the single push-button switch on the bluetooth device. That's
all easy enough, but then I started thinking...
The main feature I'm after is the bluetooth audio, but this device also has
phone call capability. It has a microphone that picks up ambient sound
through the tiny hole in the case. While I'm in there doing surgery, could
I remove the ambient microphone from the circuit board and connect wires
where it used to be, and somehow link the headset microphone to the device?
I know there are headsets that have this feature built in, and and it may
not be worth the trouble in the end- but one of the areas that I have least
understood in the whole airplane is the audio system, so one of my goals in
this investigation is to try and get a better understanding of how the
system works.
I have several different candidates for audio input available.
First, there is the headset mic jack. Is there some way that I could
attach wires to my headset mic jack at the panel, in parallel with the
intercom inputs, and either directly or through some sort of circuitry,
send those wires to the circuit board that is expecting to see a
microphone? In this case, the outgoing call audio would only include what
the corresponding headset mic picks up. If so, what kind of circuitry
would I need to consider?
Next, there is the audio output that comes to the headset audio jack. The
Flightcom intercom instructions say that I can make a 3.5mm "audio out"
jack by putting a 47k ohm resistor in series with the headphone output.
This is presumably the level of audio that a consumer electronic recording
device is expecting to see. How does this kind of output compare to what
the circuit board is expecting to see where the microphone used to be? In
this case, the intercom audio would be going outbound on the call, so
anyone who speaks in a headset is going to be heard by the call recipient.
Then, there is the output between the intercom and the aviation radio.
This seems like the least likely candidate from an impedance standpoint, as
I understand it.
Finally, one related question. Has anyone found a good way to isolate a
3.5mm audio jack from a conductive panel? Perhaps small insulating
shoulder washers?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
On 3/14/2015 8:45 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> The pilot of the the accident airplane emailed to me the following:
>> The magazine article is not correct, I did have a disconnect system in place.
However the failure occurred so fast (I could literally see my volt meter dropping),
that I could not trouble shoot the problem quickly enough. The primary
battery rapidly depleted the secondary battery and even overwhelmed the alternator
output. If I recall correctly, the fuel injectors quit operating at around
10.5 volts and that happened in a couple of minutes.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Still doesn't make any sense if only one cell was shorted. If he had a
catastrophic dead short across multiple cells, then maybe so.
Message 5
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| Subject: | 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for earphone
and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of describing
this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come up with
one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the search
engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the plug
described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found these
or can show me how to find them?
Thanks guys.
Rick Girard
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
Something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-3-5mm-TRRS-Stereo-1-8-Input-Female-Jack-Plug-with-Solder-On-Terminal-End-/351327473502
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of
> describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come
> up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the
> search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the
> plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found
> these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
Parametric search on Digikey shows three options, the first containing a swi
tch. There may be more; I didn't have time to check at length...
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-435107/CP-435107-ND/3064634
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ5-43502PM/CP5-43502PM-ND/1956558
FWIW, they're generally called "TRRS" jacks.
Eric
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for earphon
e and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of describing t
his to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come up with one.
This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the search engine or
I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the plug described as a
3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show me
how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
Sorry, I see you already knew the "TRRS" part...
Eric
do not archive
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Eric Page <edpav8r@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Parametric search on Digikey shows three options, the first containing a s
witch. There may be more; I didn't have time to check at length...
>
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-435107/CP-435107-ND/3064634
>
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146
>
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ5-43502PM/CP5-43502PM-ND/195655
8
>
> FWIW, they're generally called "TRRS" jacks.
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Mar 14, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for earpho
ne and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of describing
this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come up with on
e. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the search engine o
r I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the plug described as
a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show m
e how to find them?
>> Thanks guys.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>>
>> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
>> -Andre Gide
>>
>>
>>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
They're out there, but I'm only seeing surface mount versions.
Try "3.5mm 4p" in mouser and digikey
Daniel Hooper
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for earphon
e and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of describing t
his to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come up with one.
This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the search engine or
I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the plug described as a
3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show me
how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
These are called T-R-R-S (tip-ring-ring-sleve) connectors Digikey has them.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ5-43502PM/CP5-43502PM-ND/1956558
Bill
On 3/14/15 9:21, Richard Girard wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way
> of describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and
> can't come up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone
> but either the search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my
> travels I've seen the plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no
> sockets for them. Anyone found these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 3.5 mm 4 pole socket |
This?
http://www.showmecables.com/product/3-5mm-Jack-TRRS-Connector-Plastic.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=947&zmam=49733141&zmac=5&zmas=1&zmap=947&gclid=CKiA0_GvqMQCFdccgQoda5EAxw
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm looking for a 3.5mm 4 pole socket so I can make an adapter for
> earphone and microphone headset to my handheld. I've tried every way of
> describing this to Google and the electronic parts suppliers and can't come
> up with one. This is the socket that's on my smart phone but either the
> search engine or I are too dumb to get there. In my travels I've seen the
> plug described as a 3.5mm TRRS plug, but no sockets for them. Anyone found
> these or can show me how to find them?
> Thanks guys.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
> -Andre Gide
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question |
For $62, a 500A shunt and digital ammeter can be purchased. In the unlikely event
of a shorted battery, the shunt would act like a 500A current limiter and remove
the battery from the system. This is assuming the shunt is hooked up directly
to and at the battery.
> On Mar 14, 2015, at 05:43, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Dynon Skyview installation guide shows 3 possible locations for an ammeter
shunt. See page 7-52.
> http://tinyurl.com/Dynon-Install-Guide
> I never thought that a battery ammeter was very useful until reading about this
accident.
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16757524
> A battery ammeter might have helped the pilot realize why the aircraft system
voltage was dropping so fast. He then could have opened the battery contactor
before the engine quit.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439356#439356
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: solar charger |
> can anyone tell me why a solar panel that is sealed in it's case, won't output
any voltage? dj45
No, but I had a "dual power" calculator that stopped working. It was supposed to
run on its solar cells or its battery. When I examined it, the "solar cell"
was nothing but a piece of colored cardboard with no wires attached to it.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439383#439383
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
Has anyone ever measured the current draw of a battery with a shorted cell (with
a second battery and alternator connected)?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439384#439384
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: solar charger |
Dan,
When you say "sealed in its case. . .", that you are referring to its clear
glass front enclosure. . .?? and, not a shipping case.
If it will not output with sunlight on it, I would suspect that inside is a
blocking diode or a fuse that has been blown up by someone connecting the
unit incorrectly. If you can figure out how to open the panel, that part
can be renewed. . . .
D
_________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "dj45" <daniel-stanton1@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 5:02 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: solar charger
> <daniel-stanton1@comcast.net>
>
> can anyone tell me why a solar panel that is sealed in it's case, won't
> output any voltage?
>
> --------
> Do not archive
>
> Dan Stanton
> N801S CH 801
> N226BS CH701
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439341#439341
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Ammeter Relocation Question |
The single most important instrumentation
in the airplane's electrical system is active
notification of low voltage. The bus cannot rise
above 13.0 volts without aid of a functioning
alternator.
If the battery is being sized and maintained to
accomplish battery-only endurance operations with
certainty, then its capacity is a known quantity.
Once the capacity falls below this design goal,
prudent operations call for replacing it.
This happens when the battery has lost about 20%
of its as-installed capacity. This value will be
reached before it begins to show signs of weakness
by either (1) lethargic engine cranking or (2)
rapid decay of the recharge current after the
alternator starts.
If the airplane is not electrically dependent
and no battery-only endurance goals are in place,
then your best indicator of battery condition
will be cranking performance. If it got the engine
started, you're good to fly.
In the well crafted electrical system, ammeters
yield no useful flight-ops information. When the
alternator is running, all loads are, or should
be, known. Hence as long as the low volts lite
is out, all is right with the universe.
If the alternator quits, all endurance loads are
known as well as the battery's ability to grunt
said loads to design goals. Again, ammeters are
cool gages with wiggly pointers . . . but not
useful for flight-ops guidance (or clues as to
battery condition).
Now, if you truly want a -0+ battery ammeter,
you'll need to arrange for the shunt NOT to carry
starter current so that the ammeter sees only
flow to/from the battery. This still doesn't measure
loads in the endurance mode but it will let you
interpret recharge behavior after a start.
Like so . . .
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: solar charger |
It had been installed for awhile and we don't know if it ever did work.
I removed it from the housing and found that the ground wire was not attached to
the panel. I don't know if it be repaired or not.
It isn't needed right now, so no big deal.
Thanks
--------
Do not archive
Dan Stanton
N801S CH 801
N226BS CH701
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439395#439395
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
At 08:45 2015-03-14, you wrote:
>
>The pilot of the the accident airplane emailed to me the following:
> > The magazine article is not correct, I did have a disconnect
> system in place. However the failure occurred so fast (I could
> literally see my volt meter dropping), that I could not trouble
> shoot the problem quickly enough. The primary battery rapidly
> depleted the secondary battery and even overwhelmed the alternator
> output. If I recall correctly, the fuel injectors quit operating at
> around 10.5 volts and that happened in a couple of minutes.
I'd sure like to duplicate that on the bench.
The fact that a battery shorted in the first
place is mystifying . . . what kind of battery
was this. Had it been cap and load checked
recently? Alternators don't get "overwhelmed"
and quit. They will attempt to raise the foreshortened
10v battery up to the normal 14v bus voltage.
They'll run current limited during this time and
may get pretty warm but they don't smoke, roll
over and die.
What was the condition of the alternator after
the event?
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
At 17:16 2015-03-14, you wrote:
>
>Has anyone ever measured the current draw of a battery with a
>shorted cell (with a second battery and alternator connected)?
>Joe
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
No way to predict. The fact that a cell shorted
offers questions about the condition of the battery
in the first place. An SVLA battery that's less
than airworthy will suffer swelling plates due to
sulfation. This wouldn't be expected to occur unless
the battery was left in service long after it failed
a load/cap check.
This mechanical stress on plate separators can raise
the risk of shorting. If the battery is sulphated
badly, it wouldn't deliver much current, nor would
it draw spectacular amounts of current in the shorted
cell scenario. The ability of the 'good' battery
to deliver energy into the shorted-cell battery
is similarly influenced by age and service related
degradation.
If these were identical batteries with similar
histories, perhaps neither one would have tested
airworthy.
It would be very interesting to know the pedigree
of the batteries involved and to see a schematic
of the system architecture.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
I also asked what type of battery, flooded or AGM, but did not get a reply. Other
than the single email quoted in my previous post, I have not received any
more info from the pilot-builder.
--------
Joe Gores
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| Subject: | Re: Shorted battery caused crash |
Judging from the limited information available, I speculate that the aircraft was
wired similar to Z-19. It is hard to come to any conclusions about the cause
of the electrical failure without knowing all of the facts and details about
the type of batteries and their condition and age.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
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