AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 03/23/15


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome (David Lloyd)
     2. 10:06 AM - Busy contacts are happy contacts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 11:14 AM - AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) (Roger McCoig)
     4. 11:24 AM - AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) (Roger McCoig)
     5. 12:19 PM - Z12 vs Z13-8 (Larry Rosen)
     6. 04:33 PM - Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 05:34 PM - Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v) (Roger McCoig)
     8. 06:42 PM - Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:17:21 AM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome
    Hi Joe, Mine is dual range via push button. . .amps & volts. D ______________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 8:05 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging failure - suggestions welcome > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Testing.pdf > Note that meter is set on AMPS, not volts. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439752#439752 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:06:38 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Busy contacts are happy contacts
    >Turned out the main bus CB (original factory unit in my '65 185) had >opened up without popping the indicator button. I was dumb-founded >by that as it was about the last thing I checked. MAIN BUS BREAKER? What's that? I've experienced two instances of old switches 'going open' with age. Contact corrosion is always 'thicker' than the surface from which the corrosion is developed. The two instances I personally encountered were on low current, press-to-test switches that were not routinely operated . . . and when they were operated, their 'high current' (silver cad) contacts did not benefit from the naturally occurring arc that has a cleansing effect on thin films of naturally occurring corrosion. Do you still have the old breaker? I'd love to have it for an autopsy. The first time I saw the effect, a tech had already pulled the switch and replaced it. I cabbaged onto the carcass and discovered that it was a perfectly good but seldom exercised switch loaded with too little current. A constant current power supply set for 10A was 'shorted' with the suspect switch and wig-waged a few dozen times. Contact resistance fell to catalog limits and the switch was probably good-to-go for another 10-15 years. The second time I saw it, I was able to advise the tech and suggest an experiment before we pulled the switch from the panel (and gigged the customer $300). I hooked a CC power supply across the open contacts and wiggled the dead-short switch a few dozen times. Again, contact resistance fell to milliohms and the switch was 'refurbished in situ'. Years ago I recall advising techs who attended my seminars that one of the best things they could do for an aging breaker panel was to exercise the all breakers, under load if practical, every time the airplane showed up for service. An exercised contact is a happy contact. Unfortunately, breakers in that era of Cessnas were push-to-reset only. To 'clean' those switches, the techs were advised to clip-lead a 30A load resistor to the downstream side of the breaker . . . force it open a couple of times. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:14:03 AM PST US
    Subject: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection
    Kit (14v)
    From: Roger McCoig <morgana.ram@gmail.com>
    I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16 drawing for Re-Wiring project. Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available? Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the Jabiru Firewall Forward Kit. Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator? Thanks


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:24:46 AM PST US
    Subject: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and OV Protection
    Kit (14v)
    From: Roger McCoig <morgana.ram@gmail.com>
    I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16 drawing for Re-Wiring project. Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available? Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the Jabiru Firewall Forward Kit. Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator? Thanks


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:19:44 PM PST US
    From: Larry Rosen <n205en@gmail.com>
    Subject: Z12 vs Z13-8
    I would like some confirmation that my rational for choosing between Z12 (60 & 20 amp alternators)and Z13-8 (60 and 20 amp alternators) is rational. I am building a Vans RV-10. Based on my current projections, normal continuous load will range between 20 and 35 amps. Low being day VFR and high when landing at night. My maximum instantaneous load is 63 amps. This would be if every electrical motor was running, every radio was transmitting, every light was on, etc. A very unlikely possibility but a value that nice to have. My endurance bus load is 12 amps with a maximum instantaneous load of 21 amps. All on a 14 volt system. I will be using an Odyssey PC925 battery and per their applications manual @25C (<http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-AM-001_0406.pdf> page 7) @25C the time to 10.02 volts, that I derated to 80% is: 45 min 22.5 amps 1 hr 17.5 amps 2 hr 9.5 amps 3 hr 6.6 amps 4 hr 5.1 amps If I were to use a single alternator single battery electrical design with an endurance buss, in an alternator out scenario, running off the e-bus I would have over an hour of flight time to land before I run out of electrical power. Not that bad a scenario. Z13-8 adds the SD8 alternator and at my projected cruse or 2,300 to 2,400 rpm (the alternator would spin at 3,000 rpm) it produces 6.8 amps. My battery would need to make up the additional 5.2 amps (12-6.8). This gives almost 4 hours of endurance. Easily 3 hours with electrical reserve for the additional electrical load when landing. Z12 adds a 20 amp alternator (B&C) or 30 amps (plane power). I could not find specific output data for either alternator. B&C says 20 amps at 3,500 rpm vs my 3,000 rpm cruse. All plane power says is 30 amps at cruse for their 14 volt model not their 13.6 volt model. Since my e-buss load is only 12 amps I could run on the e-bus until my fuel runs out. I am finding very little downside to adding the 20/30 amp backup alternator. It does add about 2 pounds. The cost difference is very little $200 at the most. I am currently leaning towards Z12, but I wanted some feedback to confirm that my evaluation is sound. Larry Rosen RV-10 back to building


    Message 6


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    Time: 04:33:24 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and
    OV Protection Kit (14v) At 13:12 2015-03-23, you wrote: >I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric >Connections Figure Z-16 drawing for Re-Wiring project. > >Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available? Yes . . . sort of . . . >Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from >the Jabiru Firewall Forward Kit. > >Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), >Item 505-1, listed on B & C Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator? Yes, the crowbar ov module and lv warning are being combined into a single device. But yes, the components needed to complete that suite of tasks will be available from B&C.


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:34:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: AEC9005-101 availability and PM/OV Filter and
    OV Protection Kit (14v)
    From: Roger McCoig <morgana.ram@gmail.com>
    Thanks Bob. I appreciate the info. I will use the original wiring diagram from Jabiru for the regulator and ask B&C to let me know when the new parts are available. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 13:12 2015-03-23, you wrote: > >> I am identifying parts from the AeroElectric Connections Figure Z-16 >> drawing for Re-Wiring project. >> >> Is the AEC900-101 listed on that drawing available? >> > > Yes . . . sort of . . . > > > Also I have the original Voltage Regulator from the=C3=82 Jabiru Firewa ll >> Forward Kit. >> >> Is PM/OV Filter and OV Protection Kit (14v), Item 505-1, listed on B & C >> Speciality Productions suitable for this regulator? >> > > Yes, the crowbar ov module and lv warning are being > combined into a single device. But yes, the components > needed to complete that suite of tasks will be available > from B&C. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:42:28 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8
    At 14:17 2015-03-23, you wrote: I would like some confirmation that my rational for choosing between Z12 (60 & 20 amp alternators)and Z13-8 (60 and 20 amp alternators) is rational. I am building a Vans RV-10. Based on my current projections, normal continuous load will range between 20 and 35 amps. Low being day VFR and high when landing at night. My maximum instantaneous load is 63 amps. This would be if every electrical motor was running, every radio was transmitting, every light was on, etc. A very unlikely possibility but a value that nice to have. My endurance bus load is 12 amps with a maximum instantaneous load of 21 amps. All on a 14 volt system. Thats a pretty broad brush load analysis. Intermittent loads MAY total a lot of amps but their ENERGY requirements are generally low and not part of your endurance calculation. I will be using an Odyssey PC925 battery and per their applications manual @25C (<http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-AM-001_0406.pdf> page 7) @25C the time to 10.02 volts, that I derated to 80% is: 45 min 22.5 amps 1 hr 17.5 amps 2 hr 9.5 amps 3 hr 6.6 amps 4 hr 5.1 amps If I were to use a single alternator single battery electrical design with an endurance buss, in an alternator out scenario, running off the e-bus I would have over an hour of flight time to land before I run out of electrical power. Not that bad a scenario. Is your e-bus load that high? Nor normal running loads are not endurance loads. Figure out just what electro-whizzies are necessary and useful for continued flight at cruise. The ENDURANCE mode minimizes loads consistent with capable navigation and aviation. Z13-8 adds the SD8 alternator and at my projected cruse or 2,300 to 2,400 rpm (the alternator would spin at 3,000 rpm) it produces 6.8 amps. My battery would need to make up the additional 5.2 amps (12-6.8). This gives almost 4 hours of endurance. Easily 3 hours with electrical reserve for the additional electrical load when landing. Ideally, your TOTAL endurance loads would be carried by the 8A s/b alternator thus saving the battery's stored energy for descent and approach to landing. Z12 adds a 20 amp alternator (B&C) or 30 amps (plane power). I could not find specific output data for either alternator. B&C says 20 amps at 3,500 rpm vs my 3,000 rpm cruse. All plane power says is 30 amps at cruse for their 14 volt model not their 13.6 volt model. Since my e-buss load is only 12 amps I could run on the e-bus until my fuel runs out. The Endurance Mode . . . doesn't mean keeping the coffee pot hot and the stereo running. It means supporting the minimalist load of electro-whizzies that will carry you to airport in sight. At that time, will ALL of the battery's contents held in reserve, you can come down final with klieg lights and coupled autopilot approach while carrying on conversation with ATC . . . using BATTERY + S?B alternator to support the load for the few minutes needed to comfortably terminate the flight. Unless you have an electrically dependent engine with a voracious appetite for Joules, you should be able to cruise handily on 8A. I am finding very little downside to adding the 20/30 amp backup alternator. It does add about 2 pounds. The cost difference is very little $200 at the most. I am currently leaning towards Z12, but I wanted some feedback to confirm that my evaluation is sound. The downside is mostly dollars. Further, know that in the not too distant future, the SD-8 is likely to be 'upgraded' . . . don't know exactly how much but the increase will be significant. Get this form from my website http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf One page for each bus. One equipment item per line. Fill in steady state operating for each device categorized by flight condition. The goal is to get the MAIN ALT DEAD condition down to 8A or less load. Bob . . .




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