Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:52 AM - Happy Birthday, Bob- (GLEN MATEJCEK)
2. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:40 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- ()
5. 09:03 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Robert Borger)
6. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Jeff Luckey)
7. 10:05 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Jeff Luckey)
8. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Happy Birthday, Bob- |
I hope it's a great one!
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote:
I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component
and looked at the loads for different flight configurations. For
simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had
for an endurance mode. I was looking for a review of my analysis and
everyone has helped me with that.
The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design
and not a 'safe for flight' design. My struggle is wanting to make
the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the
conveniences I will have in the plane. Making the endurance mode a
'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads.
Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically
different. I will need to go back and determine what my design goal is.
Good for you my friend . . . and please
don't feel that any one else's goals
SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on
their 'cultural weight'. Your decision
should be aided by knowledge of the
options re-enforced by an understanding
of their performance.
In the final analysis, what ever goes
into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD
and architectured such that no single failure
will be any cause for concern beyond,
"Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . .
again?"
The elegant solution to your design goals
will offer the lightest weight and lowest
cost of ownership consistent with a benign
FMEA. Within that framework, it matters
to nobody but yourself what parts go into
the design. To the extent that we may assist
in sorting out bits and pieces, we are
at your service.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
>I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
Happy BD from me too, Bob....and many more.
Safe travel.
Rumen
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
============
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
>I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
Happy Birthday Bob!!
Have a safe and fun trip to D & back.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com <mailto:rlborger@mac.com>
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
> I hope it's a great one!
>
Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
out that the cost of freighting the books is more
than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
an adventure.
Bob . . .
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
Larry,
Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator failu
re in flight?(or course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole)
There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to continue
the flight for
a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted.=C2- But would most of us actual
ly do that?
If I imagine myself in the cockpit of an airplane in flight and experiencin
g an electricalproblem, I want to know EXACTLY what's failed, RIGHT NOW!=C2
- That may not be easyto determine from the left seat.
I'm gonna land at the first "reasonable" airport to determine exactly what'
s
wrong - NOT fly on for another hour or two, not knowing what's happening un
derthe hood.
There are all kinds of possible failure modes: did the belt break?, did a w
ire break?,
is that broken wire arcing against the airframe?, Is that arcing near a fue
l line?, is
the regulator on fire?, (did I bring extra toilet paper?) etc, etc.=C2- T
hese questions would
be running thru my mind and give me a high sphincter-factor all the way to
touchdown.
We absolutely need to have some reserve built into the system.But how much
reserve is an interesting question because it involves so many factors.Conc
erns about safety, personal comfort level, engineering, etc.=C2- I think
a reserve of "hours" is probably overkill and would probably not ever be us
ed by prudent pilots due to the reasons cited above.=C2- And, of course,
mere minutes of reserve would notbe smart either.
You might give this idea some thought before deciding on a giant battery th
at
could "keep the coffee pot warm" for a couple of hours.
In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy rese
rvesfor battery-only operations:
1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never
plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV-
7that's probably about 40-50 miles)
2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach.=C2- Of course
, we'rehoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst
case.
3. So that's about 30 minutes.=C2- Now double it, just 'cuz.=C2-
So my number is 60 minutes.
It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries (PC-680s
), single
alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power is only
one factorin my design decision for having 2 batts.=C2- With 2 batts I g
et things like brown-out
protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in flight,
reserve
starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.)
Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson.
Thanks for listening,
-Jeff
*reasonable airport is one w/ a good runway, near a town with an auto parts
store.
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:12 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nucko
lls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
ls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote:
I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component
and looked at the loads for different flight configurations.=C2- For
simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had
for an endurance mode.=C2- I was looking for a review of my analysis and
everyone has helped me with that.
=C2- The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design
and not a 'safe for flight' design.=C2- My struggle is wanting to make
the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the
conveniences I will have in the plane.=C2- Making the endurance mode a
'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads.
Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically
different.=C2- I will need to go back and determine what my design goal i
s.
=C2- Good for you my friend . . . and please
=C2- don't feel that any one else's goals
=C2- SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on
=C2- their 'cultural weight'. Your decision
=C2- should be aided by knowledge of the
=C2- options re-enforced by an understanding
=C2- of their performance.
=C2- In the final analysis, what ever goes
=C2- into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD
=C2- and architectured such that no single failure
=C2- will be any cause for concern beyond,
=C2- "Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . .
=C2- again?"
=C2- The elegant solution to your design goals
=C2- will offer the lightest weight and lowest
=C2- cost of ownership consistent with a benign
=C2- FMEA.=C2- Within that framework, it matters
=C2- to nobody but yourself what parts go into
=C2- the design. To the extent that we may assist
=C2- in sorting out bits and pieces, we are
=C2- at your service.
=C2- Bob . . .
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- |
Roger That!
Bob, best birthday wishes.=C2- Your road trip sounds like fun.
Many thanks to you for your excellent work helping the experimental communi
ty.
It is truly appreciated.
-Jeff
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:16 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
wrote:
Happy Birthday Bob!! =C2-
Have a safe and fun trip to D & back.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914,=C2-Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane,=C2-Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX =C2-76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec
tric.com> wrote:
At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote:
I hope it's a greatone!
=C2-Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin
=C2-and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm
=C2-picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns
=C2-out that the cost of freighting the books is more
=C2-than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and
=C2-I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on
=C2-an adventure.
=C2- Bob . . .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" class="">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
class="">http://forums.matronics.com
class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 |
At 12:00 2015-03-25, you wrote:
Larry,
Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator
failure in flight?
(of course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole)
There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to
continue the flight for
a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted. But would most of us
actually do that?
Just because you CAN does not mean that you
always WILL. Further, it depends on your
understanding and confidence in the options
at the time a failure first manifests.
In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy reserves
for battery-only operations:
1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never
plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV-7
that's probably about 40-50 miles)
Dr. Dee and I are fond of trips to places
like Santa Fe, Flagstaff, Laramie, etc.
Nice places to go with few 'reasonable' airports
along the way . . . even those which are
friendly to my airplane may not have tools and
logistical support for a timely repair.
2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach. Of course, we're
hoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst case.
3. So that's about 30 minutes. Now double it, just 'cuz.
So my number is 60 minutes.
It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries
(PC-680s), single
alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power
is only one factor
in my design decision for having 2 batts. With 2 batts I get things
like brown-out
protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in
flight, reserve
starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.)
Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson.
Thanks for listening,
You have re-enforced the point I made yesterday
about having NUMBERS that add protein to the
constellation of interesting flavors that make
up our personal air travel 'stew'.
In the TC aircraft world, we publish tables
of hard numbers for validated performance with
limits along with holy-watered "emergency procedures".
Like the craftsman who's only tool is a hammer,
the anointed in charge of writing POH
pages striped with red hash marks are not allowed
and in some cases incapable of writing
procedures that are modified 'on the fly'
while airborne or 'improved upon' with modifications
to equipment lists while on the ground.
For these folks, every failure event must be treated
as an emergency. "LAND WHEN PRACTICAL" is a
common phrase in the heavy-iron POH.
I've not powered up a panel mounted VOR or
GPS in decades. My dual hand-held gps receivers
supplemented with a hand-held COM would get
me any place I needed to go with the master
switch OFF.
Were our ol' J3 long-legged enough to be
a travel machine, the recipe for my 'stew'
would not change whether I was headed for
Santa Fe or out for a $100 hamburger.
I once encountered a salesman at Beech who
was recounting his experience with a pilot
who just departed in a brand new A36.
He said he spent a couple hours capped off
with a $400 hamburger at Hutch . . . showing
the new owner how all the neat stuff worked.
I asked if he demonstrated how to operate
the airplane in the "J-3 Mode".
"Say what?"
"Yeah, power everything off and get home."
"Why would I want to do that? He just paid
close to a $million$ for this machine, why
would I even suggest that there was value
knowing such things?"
Why indeed. The red-striped pages have it
all covered. A half dozen approval signatures
on the page attest to that assertion. I
didn't pursue the conversation further,
I needed to work with these guys.
In particular, POH authors would be aghast at
any suggestion for powering down the whole
airplane with continued flight to friendly facilities
using only tools in your flight bag.
Your example, and mine, are validations of
my assertion that the OBAM aircraft and
pilot are not bounded by the red-bordered
pages. They are also encouraged to ignore
'cultural common knowledge' about what
constitutes tense moments in an airplane.
I can't watch most video productions on
aviation past the first couple of times
the script writers get it totally wrong.
The vast majority of problems manifest as
a failure to perform. The thing simply
quits . . . whether by internal failure
or external when a wire comes unhooked.
Certain manifestations encourage us to
extra-ordinary action: Bad smells, wildly
fluctuating voltages . . . while very rare,
those are the things that say, "Power it all
down and get out the flight bag tools . . .
and yes, land as soon as practical."
The properly maintained battery will
always get the engine started. It's not
going to short. If an RG, it's not going
to spout hot-acid even when over charged . . .
and your ov protection system should stall
that off.
So once you have one (or in your case two)
RELIABLE batteries on board plus robust
engine driven power source(s), it's not
unreasonable to PLAN for extended flight
after the failure is detected. For the
pilot with your particular mix of flight
profiles, the e-bus and stand-by alternator
are redundant. For my mix of flight
profiles (always in rented airplanes), I
am not terribly weird for considering the
bulk of the ship's electrical system redundant.
If I can do it in a J3 . . . I can do it in an A36.
If electrical systems were a one size fits
all proposition, then the 'Connection could
be reduced to a couple dozen pages with
one Z-figure . . . and perhaps even an
Appendix E where the pages have red hash-
marks around the edges.
Cookie cutters are for cookies . . . not
The best performing airplanes in the world.
Bob . . .
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