---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/25/15: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:52 AM - Happy Birthday, Bob- (GLEN MATEJCEK) 2. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:56 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:40 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- () 5. 09:03 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Robert Borger) 6. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Jeff Luckey) 7. 10:05 AM - Re: Happy Birthday, Bob- (Jeff Luckey) 8. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:28 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Happy Birthday, Bob- From: GLEN MATEJCEK I hope it's a great one! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote: I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component and looked at the loads for different flight configurations. For simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had for an endurance mode. I was looking for a review of my analysis and everyone has helped me with that. The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design and not a 'safe for flight' design. My struggle is wanting to make the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the conveniences I will have in the plane. Making the endurance mode a 'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads. Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically different. I will need to go back and determine what my design goal is. Good for you my friend . . . and please don't feel that any one else's goals SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on their 'cultural weight'. Your decision should be aided by knowledge of the options re-enforced by an understanding of their performance. In the final analysis, what ever goes into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD and architectured such that no single failure will be any cause for concern beyond, "Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . . again?" The elegant solution to your design goals will offer the lightest weight and lowest cost of ownership consistent with a benign FMEA. Within that framework, it matters to nobody but yourself what parts go into the design. To the extent that we may assist in sorting out bits and pieces, we are at your service. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Happy Birthday, Bob- At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote: >I hope it's a great one! > Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns out that the cost of freighting the books is more than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on an adventure. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:59 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Happy Birthday, Bob- Happy BD from me too, Bob....and many more. Safe travel. Rumen ---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote: ============ At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote: >I hope it's a great one! > Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns out that the cost of freighting the books is more than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on an adventure. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Happy Birthday, Bob- From: Robert Borger Happy Birthday Bob!! Have a safe and fun trip to D & back. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote: > I hope it's a great one! > Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns out that the cost of freighting the books is more than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on an adventure. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:46 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 Larry, Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator failu re in flight?(or course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole) There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to continue the flight for a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted.=C2- But would most of us actual ly do that? If I imagine myself in the cockpit of an airplane in flight and experiencin g an electricalproblem, I want to know EXACTLY what's failed, RIGHT NOW!=C2 - That may not be easyto determine from the left seat. I'm gonna land at the first "reasonable" airport to determine exactly what' s wrong - NOT fly on for another hour or two, not knowing what's happening un derthe hood. There are all kinds of possible failure modes: did the belt break?, did a w ire break?, is that broken wire arcing against the airframe?, Is that arcing near a fue l line?, is the regulator on fire?, (did I bring extra toilet paper?) etc, etc.=C2- T hese questions would be running thru my mind and give me a high sphincter-factor all the way to touchdown. We absolutely need to have some reserve built into the system.But how much reserve is an interesting question because it involves so many factors.Conc erns about safety, personal comfort level, engineering, etc.=C2- I think a reserve of "hours" is probably overkill and would probably not ever be us ed by prudent pilots due to the reasons cited above.=C2- And, of course, mere minutes of reserve would notbe smart either. You might give this idea some thought before deciding on a giant battery th at could "keep the coffee pot warm" for a couple of hours. In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy rese rvesfor battery-only operations: 1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV- 7that's probably about 40-50 miles) 2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach.=C2- Of course , we'rehoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst case. 3. So that's about 30 minutes.=C2- Now double it, just 'cuz.=C2- So my number is 60 minutes. It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries (PC-680s ), single alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power is only one factorin my design decision for having 2 batts.=C2- With 2 batts I g et things like brown-out protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in flight, reserve starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.) Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson. Thanks for listening, -Jeff *reasonable airport is one w/ a good runway, near a town with an auto parts store. On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:12 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: ls.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 19:36 2015-03-24, you wrote: I have gone through a complete analysis of every electric component and looked at the loads for different flight configurations.=C2- For simplicity I only showed a range for my normal loads and what I had for an endurance mode.=C2- I was looking for a review of my analysis and everyone has helped me with that. =C2- The endurance design I have is a 'keep the coffee pot warm' design and not a 'safe for flight' design.=C2- My struggle is wanting to make the alternator out situation a 'non event' with all or most of the conveniences I will have in the plane.=C2- Making the endurance mode a 'safe for flight' mode would drastically cut that loads. Designing for 'non-event' vs 'safe for flight' is drastically different.=C2- I will need to go back and determine what my design goal i s. =C2- Good for you my friend . . . and please =C2- don't feel that any one else's goals =C2- SHOULD be adopted by yourself based on =C2- their 'cultural weight'. Your decision =C2- should be aided by knowledge of the =C2- options re-enforced by an understanding =C2- of their performance. =C2- In the final analysis, what ever goes =C2- into your airplane should be UNDERSTOOD =C2- and architectured such that no single failure =C2- will be any cause for concern beyond, =C2- "Oh fooey . . . is that thing broke . . . =C2- again?" =C2- The elegant solution to your design goals =C2- will offer the lightest weight and lowest =C2- cost of ownership consistent with a benign =C2- FMEA.=C2- Within that framework, it matters =C2- to nobody but yourself what parts go into =C2- the design. To the extent that we may assist =C2- in sorting out bits and pieces, we are =C2- at your service. =C2- Bob . . . - S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:32 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Happy Birthday, Bob- Roger That! Bob, best birthday wishes.=C2- Your road trip sounds like fun. Many thanks to you for your excellent work helping the experimental communi ty. It is truly appreciated. -Jeff On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:16 AM, Robert Borger wrote: Happy Birthday Bob!! =C2- Have a safe and fun trip to D & back. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914,=C2-Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane,=C2-Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX =C2-76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 03:50 2015-03-25, you wrote: I hope it's a greatone! =C2-Thank you my friend. Dr. Dee, granddaughter Jazmin =C2-and I are launching for Denver this afternoon. I'm =C2-picking up a load of books at the printers. Turns =C2-out that the cost of freighting the books is more =C2-than cost of gas and one night in motel . . . and =C2-I get the books a week earlier. So we're off on =C2-an adventure. =C2- Bob . . . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" class="">ht tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List class="">http://forums.matronics.com class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 vs Z13-8 At 12:00 2015-03-25, you wrote: Larry, Have you considered what it would be like to experience an alternator failure in flight? (of course you have - but follow me down this rabbit hole) There is lots of talk about having enough electrons in reserve to continue the flight for a "long time" or until fuel is exhausted. But would most of us actually do that? Just because you CAN does not mean that you always WILL. Further, it depends on your understanding and confidence in the options at the time a failure first manifests. In a nutshell here are some ideas I use to decide on electrical energy reserves for battery-only operations: 1. Based upon my airplane's cruise speed & flight planning, I never plan to be more than 15-20 minutes from a "reasonable*" airport. (in my RV-7 that's probably about 40-50 miles) Dr. Dee and I are fond of trips to places like Santa Fe, Flagstaff, Laramie, etc. Nice places to go with few 'reasonable' airports along the way . . . even those which are friendly to my airplane may not have tools and logistical support for a timely repair. 2. Add 10 minutes just in case I have to shoot an approach. Of course, we're hoping for VFR at the "reasonable" airport - but planning for worst case. 3. So that's about 30 minutes. Now double it, just 'cuz. So my number is 60 minutes. It turns out that my actual number for my RV-7 with dual batteries (PC-680s), single alternator system will actually be better than that. (Reserve power is only one factor in my design decision for having 2 batts. With 2 batts I get things like brown-out protection on start-up, auto fail-over so EFIS does not re-boot in flight, reserve starting energy in case I flood the engine, etc.) Food for thought, your mileage may vary, non-attorney spokesperson. Thanks for listening, You have re-enforced the point I made yesterday about having NUMBERS that add protein to the constellation of interesting flavors that make up our personal air travel 'stew'. In the TC aircraft world, we publish tables of hard numbers for validated performance with limits along with holy-watered "emergency procedures". Like the craftsman who's only tool is a hammer, the anointed in charge of writing POH pages striped with red hash marks are not allowed and in some cases incapable of writing procedures that are modified 'on the fly' while airborne or 'improved upon' with modifications to equipment lists while on the ground. For these folks, every failure event must be treated as an emergency. "LAND WHEN PRACTICAL" is a common phrase in the heavy-iron POH. I've not powered up a panel mounted VOR or GPS in decades. My dual hand-held gps receivers supplemented with a hand-held COM would get me any place I needed to go with the master switch OFF. Were our ol' J3 long-legged enough to be a travel machine, the recipe for my 'stew' would not change whether I was headed for Santa Fe or out for a $100 hamburger. I once encountered a salesman at Beech who was recounting his experience with a pilot who just departed in a brand new A36. He said he spent a couple hours capped off with a $400 hamburger at Hutch . . . showing the new owner how all the neat stuff worked. I asked if he demonstrated how to operate the airplane in the "J-3 Mode". "Say what?" "Yeah, power everything off and get home." "Why would I want to do that? He just paid close to a $million$ for this machine, why would I even suggest that there was value knowing such things?" Why indeed. The red-striped pages have it all covered. A half dozen approval signatures on the page attest to that assertion. I didn't pursue the conversation further, I needed to work with these guys. In particular, POH authors would be aghast at any suggestion for powering down the whole airplane with continued flight to friendly facilities using only tools in your flight bag. Your example, and mine, are validations of my assertion that the OBAM aircraft and pilot are not bounded by the red-bordered pages. They are also encouraged to ignore 'cultural common knowledge' about what constitutes tense moments in an airplane. I can't watch most video productions on aviation past the first couple of times the script writers get it totally wrong. The vast majority of problems manifest as a failure to perform. The thing simply quits . . . whether by internal failure or external when a wire comes unhooked. Certain manifestations encourage us to extra-ordinary action: Bad smells, wildly fluctuating voltages . . . while very rare, those are the things that say, "Power it all down and get out the flight bag tools . . . and yes, land as soon as practical." The properly maintained battery will always get the engine started. It's not going to short. If an RG, it's not going to spout hot-acid even when over charged . . . and your ov protection system should stall that off. So once you have one (or in your case two) RELIABLE batteries on board plus robust engine driven power source(s), it's not unreasonable to PLAN for extended flight after the failure is detected. For the pilot with your particular mix of flight profiles, the e-bus and stand-by alternator are redundant. For my mix of flight profiles (always in rented airplanes), I am not terribly weird for considering the bulk of the ship's electrical system redundant. If I can do it in a J3 . . . I can do it in an A36. If electrical systems were a one size fits all proposition, then the 'Connection could be reduced to a couple dozen pages with one Z-figure . . . and perhaps even an Appendix E where the pages have red hash- marks around the edges. Cookie cutters are for cookies . . . not The best performing airplanes in the world. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.