Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:44 AM - Essential Bus feed (JOHN TIPTON)
2. 02:26 AM - Alternator with no battery? (donjohnston)
3. 06:06 AM - Re: Alternator with no battery? (Bob McCallum)
4. 06:10 AM - Re: Electrical system planning (user9253)
5. 06:16 AM - Re: Alternator with no battery? (user9253)
6. 06:28 AM - Re: Essential Bus feed (user9253)
7. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: Essential Bus feed (Tim Olson)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: Electrical system planning (Jump4way)
9. 08:14 AM - power supply for testing (Ken Ryan)
10. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Essential Bus feed (Kent or Jackie Ashton)
11. 08:34 AM - Switches 2-10 (Ross Home)
12. 09:05 AM - Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Hariharan Gopalan)
13. 09:23 AM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Ralph E. Capen)
14. 09:37 AM - Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Ross Home)
15. 09:47 AM - Re: power supply for testing (user9253)
16. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: power supply for testing (Ken Ryan)
17. 10:10 AM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (user9253)
18. 10:21 AM - Re: power supply for testing (user9253)
19. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: power supply for testing (Neal George)
20. 10:28 AM - Re: Electrical system planning (user9253)
21. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: power supply for testing (Ken Ryan)
22. 10:43 AM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Hariharan Gopalan)
23. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: power supply for testing (Jeff Luckey)
24. 11:41 AM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: power supply for testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 11:44 AM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 11:45 AM - Re: power supply for testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 12:10 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Ross Home)
29. 12:30 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Mike Nellis)
30. 12:34 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Ralph E. Capen)
31. 12:59 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 01:03 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Ralph E. Capen)
33. 01:39 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Ross Home)
34. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Electrical system planning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
35. 03:00 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
36. 03:13 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Ross Home)
37. 03:31 PM - Re: Active VOR antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
38. 03:32 PM - Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
39. 04:34 PM - Re: Electrical system planning (Jump4way)
40. 04:37 PM - Re: Electrical system planning (Jump4way)
41. 05:00 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Bill Maxwell)
42. 05:32 PM - Re: Re: Electrical system planning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
43. 05:34 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
44. 05:49 PM - Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation (Bill Maxwell)
45. 07:16 PM - Re: Active VOR antenna ()
46. 07:40 PM - Re: Alternator with no battery? (donjohnston)
47. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: Alternator with no battery? (Bill Maxwell)
48. 10:10 PM - Re: Re: Alternator with no battery? (Jeff Luckey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Essential Bus feed |
Hi Guys
Am I missing something: Why can't the feed to the Essential Bus be a
simple changeover switch (1-3) to select which source you require the
power to come from, thus eliminating the diode
Regards: John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator with no battery? |
Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose,
solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by
aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise
power)?
It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator,
it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.
But I recall (years ago) that a friend was driving home from a trip at night and
his battery had some type of failure. He said that it took a couple hours but
eventually his headlights were so dim that he had to stop until the battery
could be replaced.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442980#442980
Message 3
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| Subject: | Alternator with no battery? |
That sounds a lot more like an alternator failure than a battery failure. W
hen the alternator quit=2C or was no longer able to supply all the load=2C
the battery took over the load until it was drained to a level insufficient
to maintain sufficient voltage to power the vehicle and it stopped. A new
battery would not "solve" this problem without some restoration or repair b
eing done to the charging system as well.
Some running alternators will maintain system loads without a battery=2C bu
t should the alternator be "stalled" with heavy loads it may or may not res
tart on load reduction depending on the particular components in question.
Bob McC
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator with no battery?
> From: don@velocity-xl.com
> Date: Thu=2C 4 Jun 2015 02:22:48 -0700
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>
om>
>
> Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming
loose=2C solenoid failing=2C battery falling out of the plane=2C being sto
len in flight by aliens=2C etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engi
ne running at cruise power)?
>
> It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alter
nator=2C it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is runni
ng.
>
> But I recall (years ago) that a friend was driving home from a trip at ni
ght and his battery had some type of failure. He said that it took a couple
hours but eventually his headlights were so dim that he had to stop until
the battery could be replaced.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442980#442980
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
It is VERY unusual for a battery to short internally, especially a modern AGM type.
There was one recent accident attributed to a shorted battery.
Read this thread: http://tinyurl.com/FEW-P51 The type of battery in this incident is not known. Having two batteries wired per Z-19 (assumed) did not keep the engine running
I think that it is more likely that a propeller will break or a wing will fall
off than for an AGM battery to short out. But if it is a concern, then two
contactors can be used, one for the battery and one for the alternator (s). I
agree with you that Z13-8 is a good choice. The SD-8 should be able to keep
the engine running without a battery if need be.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442988#442988
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator with no battery? |
Many alternators will keep generating when the battery is disconnected. Your friend's
experience sounds more like an alternator failure than a battery failure.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442990#442990
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus feed |
> Why can't the feed to the Essential Bus be a simple changeover switch (1-3)
to select which source you require the power to come from, thus eliminating the
diode
That switch would be a single point of failure. When it fails, essential equipment
is lost. Having both a diode and a switch provides two current paths.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442991#442991
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus feed |
Also, if it's on a switch, unless it's a progressive switch,
you will drop power to the bus when it is in between positions,
so everything will reboot that it powers. YOu CAN use a switch
or relay depending on the load, but you would still want the
diode. That way it gets power whenever there is source
power. The difference would be that when the switch is
in the proper position you wouldn't have any diode drop.
But it adds more complexity.
Tim
On 6/4/2015 8:24 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
>> Why can't the feed to the Essential Bus be a simple changeover switch (1-3)
to select which source you require the power to come from, thus eliminating
the diode
>
> That switch would be a single point of failure. When it fails, essential equipment
is lost. Having both a diode and a switch provides two current paths.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
Thanks for the replies. I'm definitely concerned about deviating from the KISS
method.
It would be interesting to know more about the exact cause of that electrical system
failure in the link provided. Bob answered one of my questions in the link
provided about what happens when a battery has an internal short.
I have a separate question about grounding. I know it's recommended to have a single
point grounding system located usually at the firewall. In the RV-8 I'm
building the battery is mounted aft for cg purposes and I have chosen to ground
the battery locally to the fuselage with the intent of having a forest of tabs
at the firewall which the engine would ground to the hot side of the firewall
and the avionics and various other grounds would ground to on the cold side.
My question is would this be considered adequate? The EFII manual says all grounds
should go back to the battery negative terminal which goes against what
I have up to now.
Thoughts?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442997#442997
Message 9
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| Subject: | power supply for testing |
Would this item be an acceptable choice for testing my electrical system?
Could it be used without any battery in the system? My avionics etc. are
all Dynon.
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Regulated-Switching-Computer-Project/dp/B00D7CWSCG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1433430384&sr=8-5&keywords=12+volt+DC+power+supply&pebp=1433430415435&perid=1MV8XVM71ACD3B1WWBYZ
Thanks,
Ken
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus feed |
In my setup, I took a multi-fuse Bussman fuse block (pic) and cut the
interior center conductor to create a main bus and essential bus. I
silver-soldered a copper tab on the smaller essential bus side of the
center conductor (left side in the pic) to wire battery power to the
essential bus through an =93essential bus=94 switch which is normally
off. The main bus provides power to the essential side through a diode
and all is powered. In an emergency, I can turn off the master switch
and power the essential bus via the essential bus switch. Sorry, don=92t
have a better pic but you get the idea, I hope
-Kent
> On Jun 4, 2015, at 9:24 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<fransew@gmail.com>
>
>
>> Why can't the feed to the Essential Bus be a simple changeover switch
(1-3) to select which source you require the power to come from, thus
eliminating the diode
Message 11
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|
I just want to make sure I am understanding the diagrams on pages 11-16 to
11-19 correctly. Using a 2-10 switch as an example. Here is how I
understand the connections at the different switch positions. Also, looking
at the back of the switch, keyway up, from top to bottom, the left side is
6,5,4 and the right side is 3,2,1. The switches I have from Bob of 12 years
ago are tabs not screws.
Keyway up
Down
Middle
Up
5 to
6
6
4
2 to
3
1
1
Message 12
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| Subject: | Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
Hello Group
Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
Thanks
Hari
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
Hari,
I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
Mine were Eaton.
I know that there are others out there:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them though.
If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of spares you think
you will ever need!
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
Hello Group
Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
ThanksHari
Message 14
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
My airplane is wired using the original
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf> All Electric on a
Budget. Is there any way to test the system downstream of the SD-8? I
would rather not remove the SD-8 and turn it using a drill and I don't even
know if that would work. Can I just apply power and ground to the red and
black wires coming out of the voltage regulator for the SD-8?
Ross
N9PT
RV-6A
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
Read the Amazon user reviews. There is a high percentage of dissatisfied customers.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443008#443008
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
Thanks Joe. Any suggestions for an alternative?
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 8:45 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Read the Amazon user reviews. There is a high percentage of dissatisfied
> customers.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443008#443008
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
> Can I just apply power and ground to the red and black wires coming out of the
voltage regulator for the SD-8?
That would work. Or connect a high wattage 12-volt test lamp to the same red and
black wires and turn on the AUX ALT switch. The lamp should illuminate from
aircraft battery power. Whenever connecting external power, there is chance
of reversing polarity which can damage avionics.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443011#443011
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
Some builders just use an automotive battery along with a battery charger.
There is a used power supply on eBay, item number 360632236168 HP DL380 400W Power
Supply HP. But it requires soldering. I am not necessarily recommending
it, just saying that it is available.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443013#443013
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
I think that your plan will work OK. Bob's Z figures have some grounding diagrams.
Audio systems are vulnerable to grounding errors. The headset jacks should
not be grounded to the airframe. Instead, separate ground wires should run
back to the radio or intercom.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443015#443015
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
I am already set up with an auto battery plus charger (I use it to power a
small ATV winch in my shop for lifting things) so it would be simple for me
to go that route. Wasn't sure if that was safe power for expensive airplane
stuff.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:19 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some builders just use an automotive battery along with a battery charger.
> There is a used power supply on eBay, item number 360632236168 HP DL380
> 400W Power Supply HP. But it requires soldering. I am not necessarily
> recommending it, just saying that it is available.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443013#443013
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington, but these
are AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
Thanks
Hari
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> recapen@earthlink.net>
>
> Hari,
>
> I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
> Mine were Eaton.
>
> I know that there are others out there:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
> is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them though.
>
> If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of spares you
> think you will ever need!
>
> Ralph
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Hariharan Gopalan
>
> Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
>
>
> Hello Group
> Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
> ThanksHari
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
See this thread from a couple of weeks ago:
Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Ideas on a "cost effective " ground p
ower ?
| =C2- |
| =C2- | | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- | =C2- |
| Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Ideas on a "cost e...Matronics Emai
l Lists BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists =C2- =C2-Get E
mail Distribution Too!=C2- =C2-=C2-FAQ=C2- =C2-Search=C2- =C2
-Memberlist=C2- =C2-Usergroups=C2- =C2-... |
| |
| View on forums.matronics.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| =C2- |
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 10:31 AM, Neal George <ngeorge@continentalmo
tors.aero> wrote:
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ly:"Calibri", "sans-serif";} _filtered #yiv8573081797 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1
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=C2- http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-004436 =C2- neal
=C2- ===========Thanks Joe. Any suggestions for an
alternative? =C2- =C2- =C2- On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 8:45 AM, user92
r9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
Read the Amazon user reviews.=C2- There is a high percentage of dissatisf
ied customers.
--------
Joe Gores
=C2-
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
At 12:41 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
>
>I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington,
>but these are AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
>
><https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series>https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
The 'ratings' on switches are generally
application-centric . . . but just because
the numbers are given in volts/amps AC
does not mean the switch is not suitable
for DC as well. See:
http://tinyurl.com/pcnf7gs
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
At 12:19 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>
>Some builders just use an automotive battery along with a battery charger.
>There is a used power supply on eBay, item number 360632236168 HP
>DL380 400W Power Supply HP. But it requires soldering. I am not
>necessarily recommending it, just saying that it is available.
See http://tinyurl.com/oyahfcf
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
At 11:35 AM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>My airplane is wired using the original
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf>All Electric on a
>Budget. Is there any way to test the system downstream of the
>SD-8? I would rather not remove the SD-8 and turn it using a drill
>and I don't even know if that would work. Can I just apply power
>and ground to the red and black wires coming out of the voltage
>regulator for the SD-8?
>
>Ross
>N9PT
>RV-6A
What is your concern? A drill motor won't turn it fast
enough anyhow. Is this system not working in flight?
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: power supply for testing |
At 10:09 AM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>Would this item be an acceptable choice for testing my electrical
>system? Could it be used without any battery in the system? My
>avionics etc. are all Dynon.
>
><http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Regulated-Switching-Computer-Project/dp/B00D7CWSCG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1433430384&sr=8-5&keywords=12+volt+DC+power+supply&pebp=1433430415435&perid=1MV8XVM71ACD3B1WWBYZ>http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Regulated-Switching-Computer-Project/dp/B00D7CWSCG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1433430384&sr=8-5&keywords=12+volt+DC+power+supply&pebp=1433430415435&perid=1MV8XVM71ACD3B1WWBYZ
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ken
Yes
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
I had an "incident" at Oshkosh 10 years ago and it has taken me this long to
get the plane back together. I replaced a bunch of avionics along the way
and changed some wiring around. Since the plane has been sitting for 10
years, I am checking out all of my electrical systems including the charging
systems.
I just want to check that when I flip the switch to link the SD-8 with the
battery contractor that it is actually happening and that the electric flow
from the SD-8 is making it to the battery contractor.
Ross
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8
At 11:35 AM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
My airplane is wired using the original All Electric on a Budget
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf> . Is there any way to
test the system downstream of the SD-8? I would rather not remove the SD-8
and turn it using a drill and I don't even know if that would work. Can I
just apply power and ground to the red and black wires coming out of the
voltage regulator for the SD-8?
Ross
N9PT
RV-6A
What is your concern? A drill motor won't turn it fast
enough anyhow. Is this system not working in flight?
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
This is the style that I like.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=wKZwVcm9LYjLogTalqbQDQ&url=http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-30-AMP-Green-LED-Toggle-Switch-Illuminates-When-ON-12-VOLT-84909-/271527899661&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFbW5f5L9tsUV5FVUmmGib0D0h-wQ
On Jun 4, 2015 12:44 PM, "Hariharan Gopalan" <rdu.hari@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
>
> I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington, but
> these are AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
>
> https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
>
> Thanks
> Hari
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> recapen@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Hari,
>>
>> I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
>> Mine were Eaton.
>>
>> I know that there are others out there:
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
>> is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them though.
>>
>> If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of spares you
>> think you will ever need!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Hariharan Gopalan
>>
>> Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
>>
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Group
>> Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
>> ThanksHari
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
The Eatons were marked as 9931 - but I can't find them any more
Try:
http://www.engravers.net/rocker-sw.html
These are what I will use as replacements if necessary....
-----Original Message-----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
Sent: Jun 4, 2015 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington, but these are
AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
ThanksHari
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hari,
I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
Mine were Eaton.
I know that there are others out there:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them though.
If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of spares you think
you will ever need!
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
Hello Group
Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
ThanksHari
==========
-
Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
==========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 31
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
At 02:08 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>I had an "incident" at Oshkosh 10 years ago and it has taken me this
>long to get the plane back together. I replaced a bunch of avionics
>along the way and changed some wiring around. Since the plane has
>been sitting for 10 years, I am checking out all of my electrical
>systems including the charging systems.
>
>I just want to check that when I flip the switch to link the SD-8
>with the battery contractor that it is actually happening and that
>the electric flow from the SD-8 is making it to the battery contractor.
>
>Ross
That system is stone simple, but it also
doesn't really perform at less than cruise
rpm. Since it's a standby system not necessary
for purposeful flight, suggest you let testing
go until all other matters are resolved. As
long as you are wired right, there's a 99.9%
probability that it will perform as advertised.
Bob . . .
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
Oooops - mine are rocker not toggle.....
----Original Message-----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
Sent: Jun 4, 2015 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington, but these are
AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
ThanksHari
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hari,
I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
Mine were Eaton.
I know that there are others out there:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them though.
If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of spares you think
you will ever need!
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
From: Hariharan Gopalan
Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
Hello Group
Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
ThanksHari
==========
-
Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
==========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 33
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
Thanks, Bob. The only change I am making from Figure Z-8 is to incorporate
the S-704-1 between the alternate feed E-bus switch and the E-Bus as shown
in Z-13/8 which was not in Z-8. I am also going to hook my SD-8 switch to
this relay so that when I turn on the SD-8 the alternate feed to the E-bus
will also come on line. My reasoning is that in the case of a main
alternator failure I would first switch on the SD-8 and then turn of the
Main Alternator switch with no downtime for the stuff connected to the
E-Bus.
Ross
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8
At 02:08 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
I had an "incident" at Oshkosh 10 years ago and it has taken me this long to
get the plane back together. I replaced a bunch of avionics along the way
and changed some wiring around. Since the plane has been sitting for 10
years, I am checking out all of my electrical systems including the charging
systems.
I just want to check that when I flip the switch to link the SD-8 with the
battery contractor that it is actually happening and that the electric flow
from the SD-8 is making it to the battery contractor.
Ross
That system is stone simple, but it also
doesn't really perform at less than cruise
rpm. Since it's a standby system not necessary
for purposeful flight, suggest you let testing
go until all other matters are resolved. As
long as you are wired right, there's a 99.9%
probability that it will perform as advertised.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
At 09:31 AM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the replies. I'm definitely concerned about deviating
>from the KISS method.
>
>It would be interesting to know more about the exact cause of that
>electrical system failure in the link provided. Bob answered one of
>my questions in the link provided about what happens when a battery
>has an internal short.
>
>I have a separate question about grounding. I know it's recommended
>to have a single point grounding system located usually at the
>firewall. In the RV-8 I'm building the battery is mounted aft for cg
>purposes and I have chosen to ground the battery locally to the
>fuselage with the intent of having a forest of tabs at the firewall
>which the engine would ground to the hot side of the firewall and
>the avionics and various other grounds would ground to on the cold
>side. My question is would this be considered adequate?
The central point ground on the firewall is
the process and technology of choice IRRESPECTIVE
of where your ground your battery.
See http://tinyurl.com/n9rgrg8
Ground all but panel mounted stuff on the
firewall including EFII stuff. Craft an
auxiliary ground bus for the panel mounted
goodies. See figure Z-15, View =A
Bob . . .
Message 35
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
At 03:36 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>Thanks, Bob. The only change I am making from Figure Z-8 is to
>incorporate the S-704-1 between the alternate feed E-bus switch and
>the E-Bus as shown in Z-13/8 which was not in Z-8. I am also going
>to hook my SD-8 switch to this relay so that when I turn on the SD-8
>the alternate feed to the E-bus will also come on line. My
>reasoning is that in the case of a main alternator failure I would
>first switch on the SD-8 and then turn of the Main Alternator switch
>with no downtime for the stuff connected to the E-Bus.
. . . except what's the hurry? when an alternator fails, and
l assuming you have a diligently maintained main battery, you've
got time to finish you cup of coffee and put the sunflower seeds
away so you don't make a mess during system reconfiguration.
There's no urgency involved. Low volts warn light ON. Take
a sip. Main alternator switch OFF. Take last sip.
E-bus alternate feed ON. Put coffee cup away. Master
battery switch OFF. Pick up sunflower seeds that
fell between your legs. ASSUMING you have an SD-8
installed for standby service, then turn it ON.
If this whole sequence takes two minutes or 10
seconds is immaterial to the energy budget that
sets the conduct of your flight . . . and nothing
goes dark that you didn't intend to go dark.
A well crafted system with a Plan-B has no emergencies
hence no reason to raise your respiration rate
much sphincter tension.
Bob . . .
Message 36
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
Thanks, Bob. Is there some reason my plan should not be used? The E-Bus
alternate relay is already there. Instead of the four leisurely steps you
describe, there are only two. Turn on SD-8, Turn off Alt/Bat main.
Ross
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8
At 03:36 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
Thanks, Bob. The only change I am making from Figure Z-8 is to incorporate
the S-704-1 between the alternate feed E-bus switch and the E-Bus as shown
in Z-13/8 which was not in Z-8. I am also going to hook my SD-8 switch to
this relay so that when I turn on the SD-8 the alternate feed to the E-bus
will also come on line. My reasoning is that in the case of a main
alternator failure I would first switch on the SD-8 and then turn of the
Main Alternator switch with no downtime for the stuff connected to the
E-Bus.
. . . except what's the hurry? when an alternator fails, and
l assuming you have a diligently maintained main battery, you've
got time to finish you cup of coffee and put the sunflower seeds
away so you don't make a mess during system reconfiguration.
There's no urgency involved. Low volts warn light ON. Take
a sip. Main alternator switch OFF. Take last sip.
E-bus alternate feed ON. Put coffee cup away. Master
battery switch OFF. Pick up sunflower seeds that
fell between your legs. ASSUMING you have an SD-8
installed for standby service, then turn it ON.
If this whole sequence takes two minutes or 10
seconds is immaterial to the energy budget that
sets the conduct of your flight . . . and nothing
goes dark that you didn't intend to go dark.
A well crafted system with a Plan-B has no emergencies
hence no reason to raise your respiration rate
much sphincter tension.
Bob . . .
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
Jim, finished one of these and was disappointed in performance.
The thing is so tiny that it's hard to troubleshoot,
assembled a second just in case.
I think the best plan-b for now is to install
a quasi-sleeve dipole . . . except that the 'sleeve'
is just a piece of wire. I forget how long you said
your antenna conduit was, hopefully considerably
more than 26".
Make the antenna from wire stiff enough to push
into the tube on the end of the coax. Wouldn't
put a connector in the counterpoise. Just thread
it to the ship's interior on installation and tape
it sort out of the way.
Emacs!
I've got a couple other antenna projects on the bench
but some buys waving credit cards have purchased some
keyboard/hammer-n-tongs time . . . and I've got a couple
of pots boiling for B&C. I'd like to pursue the
active antenna experiment. It would be useful to field
test the idea in close proximity to transponder and
vhf/comm transmitters!
In the mean time, let's get your airplane flying.
Bob . . .
Message 38
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| Subject: | Testing SD-8 System in Figure Z-8 |
At 05:11 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>Thanks, Bob. Is there some reason my plan should not be used? The
>E-Bus alternate relay is already there. Instead of the four
>leisurely steps you describe, there are only two. Turn on SD-8,
>Turn off Alt/Bat main.
That will work...
Bob . . .
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
Thanks for the reply. It seems from the picture you linked that it is acceptable
to ground the battery locally. The z-15 seems to show that it is best to ground
the battery at the firewall ground. Yet again, I'm confused, is my local battery
ground acceptable?
For the avionics ground bus, should that be isolated from the airframe then tied
to the firewall ground or can I just mount another forest of tabs behind the
panel direct to the airframe for avionics grounds then tie that one to the firewall?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443046#443046
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
Thanks for the reply. It seems from the picture you linked that it is acceptable
to ground the battery locally. From what I understand you to say, is acceptable.
The z-15 seems to show that it is best to ground the battery at the firewall
ground. Yet again, I'm confused, is my local battery ground acceptable?
For the avionics ground bus, should that be isolated from the airframe then tied
to the firewall ground or can I just mount another forest of tabs behind the
panel direct to the airframe for avionics grounds then tie that one to the firewall?
It seems to me that it should be isolated from the airframe in some manner.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443047#443047
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
Yes, any switch can be used for either AC or DC but you need to be aware
that the current handling ability is much less at DC.
Bill
On 5/06/2015 3:41 AM, Hariharan Gopalan wrote:
> Thanks Ralph. Do you have a part number for the eaton switches?
>
> I found some LT series Illuminated toggle switches by Carlington, but
> these are AC rated. Wonder if we can use these for DC applications?
>
> https://www.carlingtech.com/toggle-switches-lt-series
>
> Thanks
> Hari
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen@earthlink.net
> <mailto:recapen@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
> <recapen@earthlink.net <mailto:recapen@earthlink.net>>
>
> Hari,
>
> I am using them in my panel - but am not able to find replacements.
> Mine were Eaton.
>
> I know that there are others out there:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442909#442909
> is an example from Honeywell - don't know where you can get them
> though.
>
> If you find them - let us know...and get double the amount of
> spares you think you will ever need!
>
> Ralph
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Hariharan Gopalan
>
> Sent: Jun 4, 2015 12:03 PM
>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation
>
>
> Hello Group
> Is anyone using lighted toggle switches? Looking for recommendations.
> ThanksHari
>
>
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical system planning |
At 06:33 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the reply. It seems from the picture you linked that it
>is acceptable to ground the battery locally. The z-15 seems to show
>that it is best to ground the battery at the firewall ground. Yet
>again, I'm confused, is my local battery ground acceptable?
It is not preferable . . . but since tens of
thousands of airplanes have performed successfully
with rear-mounted, airframe grounded batteries,
it's an acceptable alternative.
>For the avionics ground bus, should that be isolated from the
>airframe then tied to the firewall ground or can I just mount
>another forest of tabs behind the panel direct to the airframe for
>avionics grounds then tie that one to the firewall?
"Avionics grounds" are that plethora of
wires that bring power and shield grounds
together . . . ideally in as close proximity
to that collection of appliances as practical.
A forest of tabs is exceedingly bulky for
this application. Better to fabricate something
like this
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/AGB_V.jpg
Much more compact and installer friendly
Bob . . .
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
At 07:01 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>Yes, any switch can be used for either AC or DC but you need to be
>aware that the current handling ability is much less at DC
yyeaaahhhh . . . sorta . . . check the aricle I cited.
Bob . . .
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted Toggle Switch recommendation |
We aren't in opposed camps on this, Bob. My caution was simply against
using a switch rated at say 40 Amps in an application that was required
to handle 40 Amps DC. I agree that for our applications that simply wont
be an issue, as the only place where high currents are involved is
handled by a contactor, relay or whatever it is termed in your part of
the world.
Bill
On 5/06/2015 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 07:01 PM 6/4/2015, you wrote:
>> Yes, any switch can be used for either AC or DC but you need to be
>> aware that the current handling ability is much less at DC
>
> yyeaaahhhh . . . sorta . . . check the aricle I cited.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Active VOR antenna |
Thanks for the reply and progress report. I was really hoping for a
successful test, but yes...the immediate goal is getting the bird
through Phase I.
The conduit is sufficient to install what you have described below.
Maybe that will be enough?..I guess we=99re going to find out one
way or another.
I=99ll report back with what we find in the coming weeks.
Thanks again.
-James
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Active VOR antenna
Jim, finished one of these and was disappointed in performance.
The thing is so tiny that it's hard to troubleshoot,
assembled a second just in case.
I think the best plan-b for now is to install
a quasi-sleeve dipole . . . except that the 'sleeve'
is just a piece of wire. I forget how long you said
your antenna conduit was, hopefully considerably
more than 26".
Make the antenna from wire stiff enough to push
into the tube on the end of the coax. Wouldn't
put a connector in the counterpoise. Just thread
it to the ship's interior on installation and tape
it sort out of the way.
I've got a couple other antenna projects on the bench
but some buys waving credit cards have purchased some
keyboard/hammer-n-tongs time . . . and I've got a couple
of pots boiling for B&C. I'd like to pursue the
active antenna experiment. It would be useful to field
test the idea in close proximity to transponder and
vhf/comm transmitters!
In the mean time, let's get your airplane flying.
Bob . . .
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator with no battery? |
Sigh... Let me try this again:
Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose,
solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by
aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise
power)?
It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator,
it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator with no battery? |
I had a friend, a fellow ham radio operator, who experienced one
connection to the battery in his Mitsubishi Express van some years ago.
The alternator did its stuff, trying to re-establish 14 volts or so at
the battery terminal - and fried much of the onboard electronics,
including his radio transceiver, in the process.
Bill
On 5/06/2015 12:37 PM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> Sigh... Let me try this again:
>
> Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose,
solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight
by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise
power)?
>
> It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator,
it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator with no battery? |
Bill,
There is a commonly held belief that running an alternator without a batter
y can be risky because voltage regulation can be problematic.=C2- The bat
tery acts as a big voltage stabilizer which allows the regulator to work pr
operly.=C2- If the battery is somehow disconnected then that stabilizatio
n disappears and the regulator may not be able to handle it, causing a volt
age run-away situation.
Once upon a time, I had to clean-up after one of these events.=C2- It was
a 12-volt system on a boat.=C2- Someone had turned-off the main battery
switch while the engine was running and the buss voltage went way above the
normal 14 volts.=C2- The event took-out a VHF radio, a radar, and an aut
omotive stereo.=C2-
Bill Maxwell's reply above describes a similar scenario in a car.
Anecdoteally...
BobN has suggested that some aircraft (I think he mentioned a Bonanza or Ba
ron) can operate in an alternator-only, no-battery-in-the-circuit mode, but
I don't have any knowledge of this.=C2- Perhaps the aircraft in question
has a very exotic regulator.=C2- BobN can speak to this better than I.
I have had auto mechanics tell me that if you disconnect the battery while
the engine is running - DON'T DO THAT!=C2- But if you do, it will void th
e warranty on the electronic components of the vehicle.
Design Notes:I think of the battery/alternator system as being symbiotic.
=C2- The alternator cannot make electricity without a little initial help
from the battery and the battery acts as a voltage stabilizing force when
high-current events occur.=C2- And, of course, batteries cannot sustain l
oads indefinitely by themselves.=C2- They work together as a team.
Whenever I design an electrical system, I make it so that if you open the b
attery contactor, the circuit also turns-off the alternator, so that you ca
nnot deliberately take the battery out of the circuit with the alternator o
n.=C2- I consider an alternator running with no battery in the circuit to
be an invalid state.
You will notice that the old red Cessna master/alternator rocker switch doe
s exactly the same thing.=C2- It allows the pilot to turn the alternator
field on and off independent of the battery master but when you turn-off th
e master it turns-off the alternator field thru the mechanical interlock bu
ilt into the switch.
Now to your question - What happens if the battery somehow gets disconnecte
d in flight due to master contactor failure, wire failure, aliens, etc?
I see two possibilities:1. The regulator keeps on regulating and buss volta
ge remains stable.
2. The reguator can no longer keep the voltage stable and buss voltage goes
up.=C2- If you have over-voltage protection, it trips and keeps your avi
onics from being fried but leaves you without power. (unless you have some
kind of backup power source)
How your particular system will respond is anybody's guess.=C2- If you ha
ve over-voltage protection, you could test it with little risk to your avio
nics??? (preferable on the ground ;)
There was discussion a while back here on the List about testing some of th
ese hypotheses, but that would take some hefty test fixtures and some effor
t.=C2- I would like to play on that team if anyone is interested in a tea
m effort.
-JeffL
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 8:18 PM, Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell@bigpond.com
> wrote:
I had a friend, a fellow ham radio operator, who experienced one connect
ion to the battery in his Mitsubishi Express van some years ago. The altern
ator did its stuff, trying to re-establish 14 volts or so at the battery te
rminal - and fried much of the onboard electronics, including his radio tra
nsceiver, in the process.
Bill
On 5/06/2015 12:37 PM, donjohnston wrote:
m>
Sigh... Let me try this again:
Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming l
oose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in f
light by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running
at cruise power)?
It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alterna
tor, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059
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