AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Thu 06/25/15


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:12 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (user9253)
     2. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Ross Home)
     3. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Jeff Luckey)
     4. 10:11 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (user9253)
     5. 11:42 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 12:39 PM - Re: Starter Contactors (Ross Home)
     7. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Kelly McMullen)
     8. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (C&K)
     9. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 08:17 PM - Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:12:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Skytec's diagram http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing. So I added diodes to Z-22 to protect the relay and start switch contacts. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:17:53 AM PST US
    From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    Thanks, Joe. I know my current set-up has at least one diode. When I get to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your diagram. There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago about putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing. Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 5:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter Contactors Skytec's diagram http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing. So I added diodes to Z-22 to protect the relay and start switch contacts. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:43:54 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    The inductive kick from the shift solenoid on the starter is pretty fierce. Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode? -Jeff On Thursday, June 25, 2015 7:28 AM, Ross Home <rossmickey@comcast.net> wrote: et> Thanks, Joe.=C2- I know my current set-up has at least one diode.=C2- W hen I get to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your diagram.=C2- There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago abou t putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing. Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 5:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter Contactors Skytec's diagram http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing.=C2- So I added diodes to Z-22 to protect the relay and start switch contacts. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg - S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:11:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    > Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode? Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more should work. The banded end connects to positive. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444038#444038


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:42:22 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote: >Bob, > >I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter >wire as per your Z-22 =9CFix for =9CRun-on=9D in >Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors=9D which >uses a relay rather than a starter >contactor.=C2 Am I missing something and also >need a starter contactor with this set-up? Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . . There are driving considerations for several configurations of starter control erroneously mis-applied . . . The external, automotive contactor was part of the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft were already set up for external contactors . . . starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the external contactor in favor of utilizing the BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would have complicated the STC. Further, the built in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush currents. http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings from B&C featured the external contactor with a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery terminal. At some later time, there was a rise in popularity of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages generated in the starter motor during spin-down would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor energize for seconds after the starter button was released. B&C has retained the wound field configuration in favor of lower motor inrush currents and better cranking performance. PM motor products were not well suited to the B&C technique so many system were modified to drive the built in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter switch. The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive air worthiness directive to add a diode to the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall contact erosion promulgated by the extra ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics. The original AD put a diode across the switch contacts but was later amended to put it across the contactor coil thusly. http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv There are several ways to live gracefully with the modern built-on contactor-solenoid: Use external contactor as illustrated in most of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT if your starter has a permanent magnet motor, then you'll want to drive the built-in contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER Diode protected starter switch of your choice . . . . OR Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can be used to replace the external contactor on a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field. The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:39:25 PM PST US
    From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey@comcast.net>
    Subject: Starter Contactors
    Thanks, Bob. You stated: =9CThe 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combinations.=9D Z-22 doesn=99t show any diodes but I do know I have some installed on my relay. Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown. <http://forums.matronics.com/files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg> http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12 should look if I am not using a diode protected starter push button or no? Ross From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Contactors At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote: Bob, I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter wire as per your Z-22 =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Fix for =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Run-on=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D in Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D which uses a relay rather than a starter contactor.=C3=82 Am I missing something and also need a starter contactor with this set-up? Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . . There are driving considerations for several configurations of starter control erroneously mis-applied . . . The external, automotive contactor was part of the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft were already set up for external contactors . . . starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the external contactor in favor of utilizing the BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would have complicated the STC. Further, the built in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush currents. http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings from B&C featured the external contactor with a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery terminal. At some later time, there was a rise in popularity of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages generated in the starter motor during spin-down would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor energize for seconds after the starter button was released. B&C has retained the wound field configuration in favor of lower motor inrush currents and better cranking performance. PM motor products were not well suited to the B&C technique so many system were modified to drive the built in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter switch. The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive air worthiness directive to add a diode to the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall contact erosion promulgated by the extra ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics. The original AD put a diode across the switch contacts but was later amended to put it across the contactor coil thusly. http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv There are several ways to live gracefully with the modern built-on contactor-solenoid: Use external contactor as illustrated in most of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT if your starter has a permanent magnet motor, then you'll want to drive the built-in contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER Diode protected starter switch of your choice . . . . OR Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can be used to replace the external contactor on a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field. The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:53:16 PM PST US
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current? On 6/25/2015 10:10 AM, user9253 wrote: > > >> Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode? > Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more should work. The banded end connects to positive. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444038#444038 > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:23:59 PM PST US
    From: C&K <yellowduckduo@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    There are farm and marine key switches rated at 25 amps for the start circuit. I've got a couple of thousand cycles on a few of them with no problems. These were not on a skytec starter though. Ken On 25/06/2015 4:51 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > <kellym@aviating.com> > > Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to > Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard > aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of > current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition > switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the > starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current? >


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:11:45 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
    At 03:51 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote: > >Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to >Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace >standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 >amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an >ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to >split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current? That 30A number is exceedingly transient. Further, switches are 'rated' in rather conventional sense that strives for tens of thousands of operating cycles at the specified load. The starter engagement switch in an airplane sees only hundreds of cycles per year and most even fewer. The AD against the legacy ACS510 was a response to the extra ordinary wear for having been tasked with controlling the modern solenoid- contactor where a major improvement in service life was achieved by simply adding the diode to mitigate contact-opening stress as opposed to contact closure stresses. This fix alone seems to have achieve a satisfactory service life when driving the solenoid-contactor. There are some solid state options for relieving stresses on the starter switch. A device like the BTS50055 hi-side switch from Infineon can be incorporated as a robust, solid state switch to handle the solenoid-coil current thus dropping switch current to mere milliamps. http://tinyurl.com/q9q5h74 There is another option for adding the external contactor on a PM starter and dealing with the run-on problem. Emacs! You can use the contactor's "I" terminal to energize the solenoid-contactor yet release it the same time that the starter switch opens. It seems that there are a lot more after market opportunities to buffer the load presented to and EXISTING or legacy start switch than there is to replace it with something with an extra-ordinary specification for robustness. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:17:10 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Starter Contactors
    At 02:38 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote: >Thanks, Bob. > >You stated: > >=9CThe 1N5400 series diodes are both >mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with > coil collapse spikes from ANY of the > starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combinations.=9D > >Z-22 doesn=99t show any diodes but I do know I >have some installed on my relay. > >Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown.=C2 > ><http://forums.matronics.com/files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg>http://forums.ma tronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg > >Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12 >should look if I am not using a diode protected starter push button or no? It doesn't hurt. The contacts of the S702 relay are quite suited to unprotected control of the solenoid-contactor . . . and the S702 coil presents a much reduced stress on the starter switch. But adding the diodes is not a bad thing to do. I show the diode in the drawing I just published . . . I'll add them to Z-22 . . . along with the suggestion I just published. Bob . . .




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