Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:12 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (user9253)
2. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Ross Home)
3. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Jeff Luckey)
4. 10:11 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (user9253)
5. 11:42 AM - Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:39 PM - Re: Starter Contactors (Ross Home)
7. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Kelly McMullen)
8. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (C&K)
9. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:17 PM - Re: Starter Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
Skytec's diagram
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg
shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing. So I added diodes to Z-22 to
protect the relay and start switch contacts.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
Thanks, Joe. I know my current set-up has at least one diode. When I get
to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your
diagram. There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago about
putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must
not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 5:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter Contactors
Skytec's diagram
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg
shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing. So I added diodes to Z-22
to protect the relay and start switch contacts.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
The inductive kick from the shift solenoid on the starter is pretty fierce.
Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode?
-Jeff
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 7:28 AM, Ross Home <rossmickey@comcast.net>
wrote:
et>
Thanks, Joe.=C2- I know my current set-up has at least one diode.=C2- W
hen I get
to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your
diagram.=C2- There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago abou
t
putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must
not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 5:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter Contactors
Skytec's diagram
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg
shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing.=C2- So I added diodes to
Z-22
to protect the relay and start switch contacts.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444019#444019
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
-
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
> Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode?
Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more should
work. The banded end connects to positive.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444038#444038
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter
>wire as per your Z-22 =9CFix for =9CRun-on=9D in
>Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors=9D which
>uses a relay rather than a starter
>contactor.=C2 Am I missing something and also
>need a starter contactor with this set-up?
Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . .
There are driving considerations for several
configurations of starter control erroneously
mis-applied . . .
The external, automotive contactor was part of
the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple
of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft
were already set up for external contactors . . .
starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive
pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the
external contactor in favor of utilizing the
BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with
the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would
have complicated the STC. Further, the built
in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard
on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush
currents.
http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae
Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings
from B&C featured the external contactor with
a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor
coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery
terminal.
At some later time, there was a rise in popularity
of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired
per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages
generated in the starter motor during spin-down
would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor
energize for seconds after the starter button
was released.
B&C has retained the wound field configuration
in favor of lower motor inrush currents and
better cranking performance. PM motor products
were not well suited to the B&C technique
so many system were modified to drive the built
in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter
switch.
The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by
modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive
air worthiness directive to add a diode to
the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall
contact erosion promulgated by the extra
ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics.
The original AD put a diode across the switch
contacts but was later amended to put it across
the contactor coil thusly.
http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv
There are several ways to live gracefully with
the modern built-on contactor-solenoid:
Use external contactor as illustrated in most
of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT
if your starter has a permanent magnet motor,
then you'll want to drive the built-in
contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER
Diode protected starter switch of your
choice . . . . OR
Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can
be used to replace the external contactor on
a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field.
The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically
robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter
contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Starter Contactors |
Thanks, Bob.
You stated:
=9CThe 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and
electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or
contactor-solenoid combinations.=9D
Z-22 doesn=99t show any diodes but I do know I have some installed
on my relay.
Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown.
<http://forums.matronics.com/files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12 should look if I am not
using a diode protected starter push button or no?
Ross
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Contactors
At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote:
Bob,
I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter wire as per your Z-22
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Fix for
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Run-on=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D in Starters with
Permeant Magnet Motors=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D which uses a relay rather
than a starter contactor.=C3=82 Am I missing something and also need a
starter contactor with this set-up?
Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . .
There are driving considerations for several
configurations of starter control erroneously
mis-applied . . .
The external, automotive contactor was part of
the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple
of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft
were already set up for external contactors . . .
starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive
pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the
external contactor in favor of utilizing the
BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with
the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would
have complicated the STC. Further, the built
in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard
on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush
currents.
http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae
Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings
from B&C featured the external contactor with
a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor
coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery
terminal.
At some later time, there was a rise in popularity
of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired
per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages
generated in the starter motor during spin-down
would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor
energize for seconds after the starter button
was released.
B&C has retained the wound field configuration
in favor of lower motor inrush currents and
better cranking performance. PM motor products
were not well suited to the B&C technique
so many system were modified to drive the built
in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter
switch.
The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by
modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive
air worthiness directive to add a diode to
the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall
contact erosion promulgated by the extra
ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics.
The original AD put a diode across the switch
contacts but was later amended to put it across
the contactor coil thusly.
http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv
There are several ways to live gracefully with
the modern built-on contactor-solenoid:
Use external contactor as illustrated in most
of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT
if your starter has a permanent magnet motor,
then you'll want to drive the built-in
contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER
Diode protected starter switch of your
choice . . . . OR
Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can
be used to replace the external contactor on
a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field.
The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically
robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter
contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec.
You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation
mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or
roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can
handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a
separate toggle that can handle the current?
On 6/25/2015 10:10 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
>> Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode?
> Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more
should work. The banded end connects to positive.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444038#444038
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
There are farm and marine key switches rated at 25 amps for the start
circuit. I've got a couple of thousand cycles on a few of them with no
problems.
These were not on a skytec starter though.
Ken
On 25/06/2015 4:51 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to
> Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard
> aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of
> current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition
> switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the
> starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current?
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactors |
At 03:51 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
>
>Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to
>Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace
>standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30
>amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an
>ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to
>split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current?
That 30A number is exceedingly transient.
Further, switches are 'rated' in rather
conventional sense that strives for tens
of thousands of operating cycles at the
specified load.
The starter engagement switch in an airplane
sees only hundreds of cycles per year and
most even fewer.
The AD against the legacy ACS510 was a response
to the extra ordinary wear for having been
tasked with controlling the modern solenoid-
contactor where a major improvement in service
life was achieved by simply adding the diode to
mitigate contact-opening stress as opposed
to contact closure stresses. This fix alone seems
to have achieve a satisfactory service life
when driving the solenoid-contactor.
There are some solid state options for relieving
stresses on the starter switch. A device like
the BTS50055 hi-side switch from Infineon can
be incorporated as a robust, solid state switch
to handle the solenoid-coil current thus dropping
switch current to mere milliamps.
http://tinyurl.com/q9q5h74
There is another option for adding the external
contactor on a PM starter and dealing with the
run-on problem.
Emacs!
You can use the contactor's "I" terminal
to energize the solenoid-contactor yet
release it the same time that the starter
switch opens.
It seems that there are a lot more after market
opportunities to buffer the load presented
to and EXISTING or legacy start switch than
there is to replace it with something with
an extra-ordinary specification for robustness.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Starter Contactors |
At 02:38 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
>Thanks, Bob.
>
>You stated:
>
>=9CThe 1N5400 series diodes are both
>mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with
> coil collapse spikes from ANY of the
> starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combinations.=9D
>
>Z-22 doesn=99t show any diodes but I do know I
>have some installed on my relay.
>
>Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown.=C2
>
><http://forums.matronics.com/files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg>http://forums.ma
tronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
>
>Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12
>should look if I am not using a diode protected starter push button or no?
It doesn't hurt. The contacts of the S702 relay
are quite suited to unprotected control of the
solenoid-contactor . . . and the S702 coil presents
a much reduced stress on the starter switch. But
adding the diodes is not a bad thing to do. I show
the diode in the drawing I just published . . . I'll add
them to Z-22 . . . along with the suggestion I just
published.
Bob . . .
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