AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 06/27/15


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:06 AM - Re: Alternator problem? (donjohnston)
     2. 05:49 AM - Re: Alternator problem? (user9253)
     3. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Charlie England)
     4. 06:36 AM - Re: Alternator problem? (user9253)
     5. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 08:01 AM - Re: Alternator problem? (donjohnston)
     8. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (C&K)
     9. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Etienne Phillips)
    10. 09:06 AM - Re: Alternator problem? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 12:15 PM - Re: Alternator problem? (donjohnston)
    14. 04:42 PM - Re: Alternator problem? (user9253)
    15. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Alternator problem? (Verso Electronics)
    16. 08:22 PM - Re: Alternator problem? (Paul Millner)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:06:13 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
    > If we were conducting this investigation in B-31 at Beech (Flight Test) we would get out a data acquisition system... Hey Bob, Yeah, my kingdom for a DAQ that I could put on this. :( > Can you pair the ov trip even with any particular action elsewhere in the system? No. Like I said, the engine runs thus far have all been short (~5 min) and I've been focusing on fuel and temp related indicators. The engine issues have been resolved so now the engine runs should be longer and I should be able to better monitor the electrical side to identify if there's an event which precedes it or if it's random. Right now I'm trying to decide if I should pull the alternator or wait and see. Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444084#444084


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:49:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    > As it has been explained to me, the voltage regulator is determining the fault. The VP-X is reporting the fault. Looking at the LR3C documentation, there is no output terminal dedicated to providing an over-voltage warning. Therefore the only way that the LR3C can indicate over-voltage is by the crowbar circuit shorting out terminal 6. If terminal 6 gets its power from the VP-X and not from a circuit breaker, then the VP-X should report over-current, not over-voltage. I do not know how the VP-X works, but expect that it monitors system voltage independently from the LR3C. If the VP-X reports over-voltage, a troubleshooter might ask, is it telling the truth or lying? What is the over-voltage setpoint? How long must the voltage be over the setpoint before tripping? Can the pilot change the over-voltage setpoint? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444085#444085


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:54:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 7:04 AM, donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > > > If we were conducting this investigation in B-31 at Beech (Flight Test) > we would get out a data acquisition system... > > Hey Bob, > > Yeah, my kingdom for a DAQ that I could put on this. :( > > > > Can you pair the ov trip even with any particular action elsewhere in > the system? > > > No. Like I said, the engine runs thus far have all been short (~5 min) and > I've been focusing on fuel and temp related indicators. > > The engine issues have been resolved so now the engine runs should be > longer and I should be able to better monitor the electrical side to > identify if there's an event which precedes it or if it's random. > > Right now I'm trying to decide if I should pull the alternator or wait and > see. > > Thanks, > Don > > Pardon my density, but with an externally regulated alternator, how is it possible for the alternator itself to be the cause of overvoltage? Isn't it just a few coils of wire on some iron? It can't produce any significant voltage at all without field current supplied by the regulator, right? It's hard for me to envision any fault within the alternator that would produce *higher* than design voltage. Any short or open circuit inside the alternator should produce either lower or no voltage output, unless I'm missing something. Charlie


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:36:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Good question Charlie. I also want to know what can go wrong with an externally regulated alternator that would cause over voltage. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444088#444088


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:31:32 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    At 08:35 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: > >Good question Charlie. I also want to know what can go wrong with >an externally regulated alternator that would cause over voltage. >Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores Cogent questions gentlemen. The short answer is, it can't. The long answer is that the transfer function of voltage control in some regulators doesn't handle brush-bounce well. This can COMBINE with poor design of the OV trip system to create some vexing symptoms. I can relate a first hand-experience with OV trips in brand new airplanes that go back over 30 years . . . with engineers in three institutions pointing fingers at each other while your's truly kept reminding them of the obvious. That problem was only recently solved by a long recommended replacement of a regulator that should not have been qualified onto the airplane in the first place. If and LR3 is manifesting poor response to brush-bounce, this will be a first in my experience. It would be the collision of THREE conditions, each at the extremes of their production tolerances, or perhaps a manufacturing error. I think this quite improbable but easy to check with the swapping of one of the two waring factions. The regulator probably being the easiest. There are some peek, poke and ponder exercises to conducted before we play swap-tronics. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:40:23 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    At 07:04 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: > > > > If we were conducting this investigation in B-31 at Beech (Flight > Test) we would get out a data acquisition system... > >Hey Bob, > >Yeah, my kingdom for a DAQ that I could put on this. :( The Force is in sympathy with you. Paul Fisher and I will be stirring this into the list of things to do . . . as soon as we clear the decks of another commitment . . . probably after OSH. The availability of off-the-shelf DAS hardware and supporting graphical user interface leaves no excuses for not crafting a suite of hardware that addresses capabilities we've dreamed about here on the List for 20 years. There's no 'hard' work to be done here . . . only assemble off the shelf stuff into useful tools. It's all about the packaging. By the way, this is not a state secret project. If any members on the List have ECB layout capabilities and reasonable skills at slinging solder, contact me off-list and we'll see how your skill-set offer might fit into this project. I'm contemplating this becoming a tool for DIY efforts, perhaps a tool that could be rented and shipped around the country as needed, and it certainly has possibilities as an article for KitPlanes. The time for OBAM aviation to acquire routine access to low cost measurement tools arrived a few years ago and we were asleep at the keyboard. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:01:20 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
    I'll try an answer with either what I know or what I've been told: The VP-X monitors the system voltage. When it hits 32v, it shuts off the power to the field and reports an overvoltage fault. (see attached) I don't know exactly where it's monitoring the system voltage. I would guess at it's connection to the system bus. The only "adjustment" to the overvoltage trigger level is whether it's installed in a 14v or 28v system. On a 28v system, the OV trigger is hard set at 32v. Vertical Power offered to bench check the VP-X. But since this is early in the game, I was hoping to get some more ideas and data before going down that road. Speaking of data, I did run across this little guy: DataQ Instruments DI-149 http://www.dataq.com/products/di-149/index.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwk7msBRCJj67khY2z_NIBEiQAPTFjv9iqePcOkNiAMApB_amhAfmVZ-fp0KOI3tHOgpWA9VoaAnUa8P8HAQ I'm wondering if it would be helpful to identify what's happening. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444092#444092


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:07:29 AM PST US
    From: C&K <yellowduckduo@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    Instead of impossible, I'd venture 'incredibly unlikely'. As in more probable that I'll be hit by lightning before I send this. However I can envision a scenario where a stray bit of internal debris shorts some alternator output over to the field coil. Even less likely here where the situation appears to be intermittent. The question was asked but since it is not even worth consideration at this point, I'm going to add do not archive Ken On 27/06/2015 10:29 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 08:35 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: >> >> Good question Charlie. I also want to know what can go wrong with an >> externally regulated alternator that would cause over voltage. >> Joe >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores > > Cogent questions gentlemen. The short answer is, > it can't. The long answer is that the transfer > function of voltage control in some regulators > doesn't handle brush-bounce well. This can > COMBINE with poor design of the OV trip system > to create some vexing symptoms. I can relate a > first hand-experience with OV trips in brand new > airplanes that go back over 30 years . . . with > engineers in three institutions pointing fingers > at each other while your's truly kept reminding > them of the obvious. That problem was only > recently solved by a long recommended replacement > of a regulator that should not have been qualified > onto the airplane in the first place. > > If and LR3 is manifesting poor response to > brush-bounce, this will be a first in my experience. > It would be the collision of THREE conditions, each > at the extremes of their production tolerances, > or perhaps a manufacturing error. > > I think this quite improbable but easy to check > with the swapping of one of the two waring factions. > The regulator probably being the easiest. There > are some peek, poke and ponder exercises to > conducted before we play swap-tronics. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > *


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:06:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
    Hi Bob Have you considered using the Red Pitaya as a base for signal gathering? It's an open source DAQ that already has a lot of the hard work done. It's not dirt cheap ($320) but may offer a quick route to a portable, rentable or EAA chapter own-able device that would fit the bill. Check out www.redpitaya.com Thanks Etienne On 27 June 2015 at 16:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:04 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: > > don@velocity-xl.com> > > > > If we were conducting this investigation in B-31 at Beech (Flight Test) > we would get out a data acquisition system... > > Hey Bob, > > Yeah, my kingdom for a DAQ that I could put on this. :( > > > The Force is in sympathy with you. Paul Fisher > and I will be stirring this into the list of > things to do . . . as soon as we clear the decks > of another commitment . . . probably after > OSH. The availability of off-the-shelf DAS > hardware and supporting graphical user > interface leaves no excuses for not crafting > a suite of hardware that addresses capabilities > we've dreamed about here on the List for 20 > years. > > There's no 'hard' work to be done here . . . > only assemble off the shelf stuff into > useful tools. It's all about the packaging. > > By the way, this is not a state secret project. > If any members on the List have ECB layout > capabilities and reasonable skills at slinging > solder, contact me off-list and we'll see how > your skill-set offer might fit into this > project. > > I'm contemplating this becoming a tool for > DIY efforts, perhaps a tool that could be rented > and shipped around the country as needed, and > it certainly has possibilities as an article > for KitPlanes. > > The time for OBAM aviation to acquire routine > access to low cost measurement tools arrived a few > years ago and we were asleep at the keyboard. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:06:18 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    At 06:34 AM 6/26/2015, you wrote: I'm in the process of trying to track down an over voltage fault. So far the engine runs that I've been doing have been relatively short duration (mostly around 5-10min) while I'm getting the engine dialed in. On about 4 occasions I've noticed the alternator circuit has faulted for "over voltage". I'm running a 28v electrical system VP-X Pro B&C LR3C voltage regulator Kelly Aerospace 50a alternator Continental IO-550 engine. Vertical Power and B&C have had me check a number things. All checks have shown voltage levels, drops and wire resistance to be well within parameters. How are your LR3 and VPX system configured? The LR3 is fitted with crowbar OV protection. If I understand your symptoms, it's an OV sense and protection function within the VPX that tripping? Can you de-program the VPX ov function? Or raise it's trip point to some big number? You don't need TWO ov protection systems. >B&C is recommending to pull the alternator and have it checked. In the great spaghetti-mix that is aviation accessories, marketing and business models, it's difficult to keep track of who's alternator is being built by whom and with what, if any, improvements. The alternators involved in the three-decade saga of new airplane OV trips were the occasionally-unfair targets of accusatory assertions . . . but they DID demonstrate varying degrees of brush-bounce that often faded to acceptable levels after the first 20 hours or so of operation. For a time, brand new alternators were being pulled off engines to be 'broke in' on a test stand before being re-installed. A poorly understood work-around for what was a fundamental design flaw in the regulator. The whole legacy family of gear-driven alternators for Continental engines have been the subject of numerous 'investigations' . . . to this very day . . . in spite of the fact that the car-builders put those issues to bed three or four decades ago. Such is the plight of consumers deprived of choices outside the bounds of the cookie-cutter TC airplane business. Given what I DO KNOW about that family of alternators and what I DO NOT know about the VPX OV sense and response philosophy, it may well be that your symptoms have root cause in conditions not unlike those I've described earlier in this thread. The problem may have nothing to do with the LR3 and everything to do with a discontinuity in assembly of simple-ideas that govern performance. >I"m just wondering if anyone has run into anything similar with >these alternators before I pull it ship it out. I have seen NO requirements that quantify, put limits on or offer diagnosis tools for the detection of brush bounce in airplane alternators. I've never been able to measure it on the test bench . . . the only way I could strengthen the hypothesis that it existed was to add a filter to the field terminals of the alternator and demonstrating that the problem went away. The filter only protected the poorly designed ov sense system from a noise that was common to and present in most alternators as a matter of simple physics . . . noise so small that it was difficult to detect amongst the other noises (All well within MIL-STD-704 recommendations). Just for grins, we could craft a little filter assembly to jury-rig to the back of your alternator. This experiment is not without risk of the various participants 'relaxing' because your particular manifestation went away. If brush noise is indeed root to your symptoms, it's indication of a fundamental design deficiency in the ov sense system . . . NOT THE ALTERNATOR. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:26:12 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    At 10:06 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: Instead of impossible, I'd venture 'incredibly unlikely'. As in more probable that I'll be hit by lightning before I send this. However I can envision a scenario where a stray bit of internal debris shorts some alternator output over to the field coil. Even less likely here where the situation appears to be intermittent. The question was asked but since it is not even worth consideration at this point, I'm going to add Actually, Mooney experienced just such an event back about 1980. I recall peering into the teardown of an alternator that should have got some combination of craftsmen and inspectors fired. So it's not totally outside the realm of possibility. But yes . . . in this ISO9000 world of 'perfection' it should be exceedingly remote. I wish I could remember the name of the engineer I interacted with at Mooney. A solidly grounded, common sense fellow with an airs of personality that put a lot of people off. He had a small, red, rubber coated steel mallet on which he inscribed the non de plume, "PATIENCE". I never witness it personally, but he was renowned for expressing occasional bouts of frustration by abusing the corner of his desk with "Patience". Indeed, there were markings in the finish that attested to his vice. He proved to be one of my most valuable collaborators over those years. On numerous occasions since, I have wondered if there would be value in acquiring a "Son of Patience". On further reflection, pounding on a conference room table with a red hammer these days would probably get me a visit from a host of stern faced folks 'concerned' about my ability to integrate in the modern culture. Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:46:39 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    At 11:04 AM 6/27/2015, you wrote: >Hi Bob > >Have you considered using the Red Pitaya as a >base for signal gathering? It's an open source >DAQ that already has a lot of the hard work >done. It's not dirt cheap ($320) but may offer a >quick route to a portable, rentable or EAA >chapter own-able device that would fit the bill. > >Check out <http://www.redpitaya.com>www.redpitaya.com=C2 > >Thanks >Etienne To be sure, you've discovered one of a host of potential possibilities. My current thoughts are based on a VERY low cost DAS device I mentioned here on the List a few days ago. http://tinyurl.com/nvduk9x For what ever it may lack in capability, you sure can't argue about the price . . . especially since it comes with a capable graphical user interface and writes data to tabular files for analysis with other tools. I'm thinking of dropping this device onto a 'mother board' fitted with, what we'll have to deduce, a useful collection of signal conditioners for voltage, current, pressure, temperatures, etc. Theres a REALLY handy current transducer with great accuracy and frequency response http://tinyurl.com/p9fk8po The 6A version is easily adapted to sense currents from hundreds of milliamps to hundreds of amps. Voltage signal conditioning is easy. Temperature is easy in the realm of solid state tranducers up to 100C, but a channel of K thermocouple data would probably be good too. Pressure 4-20 mA pressure transducers are COTS items. I've got $hundreds$ in DAS equipment on the shelf that I've used to great advantage in the TC world . . . but too complex to install/operate/ resolve in the OBAM world. This is an exercise in extracting lab grade data from a KISS box. Need to make this so $low$ and simple that fewer folk in the OBAM market are put off by the expense risk and willing to try it for themselves. This is the rolling-stock-consist for a train of ideas in the current pot of idea-stew. I'm 'seeing' a board about 2.5 x 3.5 inches that would mount the pic-stick and 5-8 channels of signal conditioning for a BOM cost on the order of $50-60. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 12:15:00 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
    nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > In the great spaghetti-mix that is aviation > accessories, marketing and business models, > it's difficult to keep track of who's alternator > is being built by whom and with what, if any, > improvements. All I can say with certainty is that the P/N of the alternator is 646843. According to what I've been able to determine it's a TCM 60a alternator. I was told that line of business was sold to Kelly Aerospace. > The alternators involved in the three-decade saga of new airplane OV trips were the occasionally-unfair targets of accusatory assertions . . . but they DID demonstrate varying degrees of brush-bounce that often faded to acceptable levels after the first 20 hours or so of operation. You just went over my head with "brush-bounce". :( > Given what I DO KNOW about that family of alternators and what I DO NOT know about the VPX OV sense and response philosophy, it may well be that your symptoms have root cause in conditions not unlike those I've described earlier in this thread. The problem may have nothing to do with the LR3 and everything to do with a discontinuity in assembly of simple-ideas that govern performance. If this means that it's possible that I did something wrong putting this system together, there is absolutely no doubt about that! :) If so, can you give me some idea of where I may have a disconnection in the "discontinuity in assembly of simple-ideas that govern performance" > Just for grins, we could craft a little filter assembly to jury-rig to the back of your alternator. This experiment is not without risk of the various participants 'relaxing' because your particular manifestation went away. If brush noise is indeed root to your symptoms, it's indication of a fundamental design deficiency in the ov sense system . . . NOT THE ALTERNATOR. I'm all for grins! Can you give me an idea where to get or how to build this filter? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444101#444101


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:42:14 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Directions for making a filter: http://www.sanantoniohams.org/tips/whine.htm > You just went over my head with "brush-bounce". Alternators have bushes that ride on slip rings. If the rings are not concentric, the brushes will move up and down in their holders. > can you give me some idea of where I may have a disconnection in the "discontinuity in assembly of simple-ideas that govern performance I get the impression that Bob is inferring that he does not trust the VP-X. I suggest that instead of pulling the alternator, that you replace the voltage regulator with a generic Ford VR166 or equivalent. There is a list in Bob's book. The over-voltage and low voltage features of the LR3 are not needed in your application if the VP-X provides over-voltage and the EFIS gives low voltage warning. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444104#444104


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:34:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    From: Verso Electronics <versoelectric@GMAIL.COM>
    On Jun 27, 2015, at 4:40 PM, "user9253" wrote: > The over-voltage and low voltage features of the LR3 are not needed in your application if the VP-X provides over-voltage and the EFIS gives low voltage warning. Does the VP-X initiate a crowbar in the presence of over-voltage, or simply report it through alarm output? Eric


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:22:30 PM PST US
    From: Paul Millner <millner@me.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator problem?
    Bob, In our '70's Cardinals, Cessna installed an electrolytic capacitor across the OV unit to minimize such trips... Paul




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