---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/19/15: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:17 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Ross Mickey (home)) 2. 12:26 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Dj Merrill) 3. 02:11 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Kelly McMullen) 4. 03:07 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (user9253) 5. 03:27 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 04:15 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Ross Mickey (home)) 7. 04:17 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (Ross Mickey (home)) 8. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: Radio Buzz (Ross Mickey (home)) 9. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Radio Buzz (Charlie England) 10. 06:02 PM - Re: Radio Buzz (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz From: "Ross Mickey (home)" I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 EFIS I just installed. I have lessened the static sound some by re routing some wi res. I also now can see that the rear antenna is being slightly affected als o. All of the grounds look good going to a common ground block attached to t he battery. Now what do I do? Ross Mickey > On Jul 17, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Ross Home wrote: > > Thanks so much, Bob. I will do as you suggest when I get back out to the h angar. > > Just for my education. Since the location of the coax is not an issue, am I to understand that the interference I am experiencing is being picked up b y the forward antenna itself? > > In surfing the web about comm antenna, I read about the importance of havi ng good electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground. > > The electrical bonding of the antennas to the aircraft skin is best accomp lished by direct metal-to metal contact of the antenna base to the aircraft s kin. To accomplish this, the aircraft paint in the mounting area will need t o be removed and the surface alodined to protect aluminum against corrosion. An alternate method for providing electrical bonding is through the mountin g screws, which attach to a backing plate inside the aircraft skin. Remove a ny interior paint in the area where the backing plate is placed to assure a g ood ground. Coat this area with alodine to minimize corrosion. To test the e lectrical bonding of the blade to the aircraft, a reading of .003 ohms betwe en the antenna base plate and ground should be achieved. > > I am using the second method and will have to check if my installation mee ts the .003 ohm test. If the front antenna does not meet this, would this c ause a buzz or just degrade the performance of the antenna? > > Ross > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 11:45 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz > > At 11:05 AM 7/17/2015, you wrote: > > Since you have ruled out external sources, it sort of points to the front a ntenna cable. I thought you said you had tried swapping cables. > Try removing antenna from airframe, connecting it directly to radio and se e if there is noise. > I can't explain it, but I know of one case where noise was coming via grou nd, and isolating the antenna from ground cured the problem. Perhaps a groun d loop between coax shield and the airframe ground. > > On 7/17/2015 7:51 AM, Ross Home wrote: > > I will try this. > > What is puzzling is that the antenna connection that leads to the rear ant enna is at the firewall about 18 inches and level with my GX-60. I can easi ly unhook the GX-60 cable from the front antenna (which is under the floor d irectly beneath the GX-60) and hook it to the rear antenna connection which i s at the same height as the GX-60 and the noise goes away. All of the wires that the GX-60 cable passes are the same in either case except, when it is c onnected to the front antenna, it crosses these wires at a 90 degree angle i nstead of running parallel to them when it goes the rear antenna connection. > > Routing of coax cables to antennas is NEVER > a component of received noise . . . in the > heavy iron we route coaxes where there is opportunity > and room. The whole idea behind the industry standard > practices for (1) limiting noise from antagonists, > (2) improving resistance to noise by judicious > design of potential victims and last (3) reducing > risk of over-whelming propagation path (mounting > an antenna under the cowl will probably pick up > ignition noise). When a noise coming in through > the receiver's antenna port is detected, placement > of the coax isn't even a distant finisher in the > quest for resolution. > > Assuming you have paid due diligence to standard practices > for installing the two antennas then the fact that > the forward-most antenna seems to be the key propagation > port, then the noise source is most likely forward ON > the aircraft. If it were off the aircraft, both > antennas would hear it. > > This problem has a lot in common with Col_Mustard- > did-it-in-the-library-with-a-rope . . . you gotta > gather all the clues available to you BEFORE picking > up hammers-n-saws . . . or screwdrivers. > > Antennas don't go BAD in a manner that makes one > a source of noise while others are not. They either > work good . . . or they don't . . . but they're never > 'noisy'. Start with a 'cold' panel and bring up > equipment one item at a time . . . then confirm > your preliminary findings with a sniffer receiver. > > Only THEN will hammers, saws and screwdrivers > contribute to resolution of the problem. > > > Bob . . . > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:27 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz On 7/19/2015 3:15 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: > I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 > EFIS I just installed. > > Now what do I do? First thing I'd do is contact AFS and see if they have any thoughts. Others might have reported similar issues and they may have some ready ideas to try. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz From: Kelly McMullen Turn the EFIS off with circuit breaker. See if the noise goes away. Then call AFS/Dynon for advice if that proves to be the source of the noise. On 7/19/2015 12:15 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: > I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 > EFIS I just installed. I have lessened the static sound some by re > routing some wires. I also now can see that the rear antenna is being > slightly affected also. All of the grounds look good going to a common > ground block attached to the battery. > > Now what do I do? > > Ross Mickey > > > On Jul 17, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Ross Home > wrote: > >> Thanks so much, Bob. I will do as you suggest when I get back out to >> the hangar. >> >> Just for my education. Since the location of the coax is not an >> issue, am I to understand that the interference I am experiencing is >> being picked up by the forward antenna itself? >> >> In surfing the web about comm antenna, I read about the importance of >> having good electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground. >> >> The electrical bonding of the antennas to the aircraft skin is best >> accomplished by direct metal-to metal contact of the antenna base to >> the aircraft skin. To accomplish this, the aircraft paint in the >> mounting area will need to be removed and the surface alodined to >> protect aluminum against corrosion. An alternate method for providing >> electrical bonding is through the mounting screws, which attach to a >> backing plate inside the aircraft skin. Remove any interior paint in >> the area where the backing plate is placed to assure a good ground. >> Coat this area with alodine to minimize corrosion. To test the >> electrical bonding of the blade to the aircraft, a reading of .003 >> ohms between the antenna base plate and ground should be achieved. >> >> I am using the second method and will have to check if my >> installation meets the .003 ohm test. If the front antenna does not >> meet this, would this cause a buzz or just degrade the performance of >> the antenna? >> >> Ross >> >> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >> *Robert L. Nuckolls, III >> *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 11:45 AM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz >> >> At 11:05 AM 7/17/2015, you wrote: >> >> Since you have ruled out external sources, it sort of points to >> the front antenna cable. I thought you said you had tried >> swapping cables. >> Try removing antenna from airframe, connecting it directly to >> radio and see if there is noise. >> I can't explain it, but I know of one case where noise was coming >> via ground, and isolating the antenna from ground cured the >> problem. Perhaps a ground loop between coax shield and the >> airframe ground. >> >> On 7/17/2015 7:51 AM, Ross Home wrote: >> >> I will try this. >> >> What is puzzling is that the antenna connection that leads to >> the rear antenna is at the firewall about 18 inches and level >> with my GX-60. I can easily unhook the GX-60 cable from the >> front antenna (which is under the floor directly beneath the >> GX-60) and hook it to the rear antenna connection which is at >> the same height as the GX-60 and the noise goes away. All of >> the wires that the GX-60 cable passes are the same in either >> case except, when it is connected to the front antenna, it >> crosses these wires at a 90 degree angle instead of running >> parallel to them when it goes the rear antenna connection. >> >> >> Routing of coax cables to antennas is NEVER >> a component of received noise . . . in the >> heavy iron we route coaxes where there is opportunity >> and room. The whole idea behind the industry standard >> practices for (1) limiting noise from antagonists, >> (2) improving resistance to noise by judicious >> design of potential victims and last (3) reducing >> risk of over-whelming propagation path (mounting >> an antenna under the cowl will probably pick up >> ignition noise). When a noise coming in through >> the receiver's antenna port is detected, placement >> of the coax isn't even a distant finisher in the >> quest for resolution. >> >> Assuming you have paid due diligence to standard practices >> for installing the two antennas then the fact that >> the forward-most antenna seems to be the key propagation >> port, then the noise source is most likely forward ON >> the aircraft. If it were off the aircraft, both >> antennas would hear it. >> >> This problem has a lot in common with Col_Mustard- >> did-it-in-the-library-with-a-rope . . . you gotta >> gather all the clues available to you BEFORE picking >> up hammers-n-saws . . . or screwdrivers. >> >> Antennas don't go BAD in a manner that makes one >> a source of noise while others are not. They either >> work good . . . or they don't . . . but they're never >> 'noisy'. Start with a 'cold' panel and bring up >> equipment one item at a time . . . then confirm >> your preliminary findings with a sniffer receiver. >> >> Only THEN will hammers, saws and screwdrivers >> contribute to resolution of the problem. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List**** >> **** >> **** >> ***http://forums.matronics.com***** >> ****** >> ****** >> ****** >> ****** >> ****http://www.matronics.com/contribution****** >> ****** >> ****** >> ** >> *D============================================= >> lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> D============================================= >> //forums.matronics.com >> D============================================= >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D============================================= >> * >> ** > http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:56 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Buzz From: "user9253" Is the AFS 5600 EFIS wired according to the installation manual? Usually shielded cables are grounded at the source end only, but not always. Can you identify one or more wires from the AFS 5600 EFIS that are causing the noise? Is the squelch on the com radio adjusted too sensitive? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444951#444951 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz At 02:24 PM 7/19/2015, you wrote: > >On 7/19/2015 3:15 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: > > I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 > > EFIS I just installed. > > > > Now what do I do? A number of appliances with LCD screens were notorious radiators. I think the problems were centered around the micro-watt dc to ac converter used to bias up the screen. I'd not heard of any difficulties in years . . . I assumed that everyone had figured it out by now . . . but apparently not. The fact that moving wires made difference suggests that the noises MAY be radiated from wire bundles as opposed to from the LCD face. Again, the hand-held transceiver can be used to 'sniff' around the box . . . much like you would use a freon leak detector to find a bad joint. You may want to make a 'special' antenna for the hand held that is only an inch or so long so that its not terribly efficient . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz From: "Ross Mickey (home)" I identified it was the EFIS by pulling the fuse. Ross Mickey 541-954-7521 > On Jul 19, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > Turn the EFIS off with circuit breaker. See if the noise goes away. Then call AFS/Dynon for advice if that proves to be the source of the noise. > >> On 7/19/2015 12:15 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: >> I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 EFIS I just installed. I have lessened the static sound some by re routing some wires. I also now can see that the rear antenna is being slightly affected also. All of the grounds look good going to a common ground block attached to the battery. >> >> Now what do I do? >> >> Ross Mickey >> >> >> >>> On Jul 17, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Ross Home > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks so much, Bob. I will do as you suggest when I get back out to the hangar. >>> >>> Just for my education. Since the location of the coax is not an issue, am I to understand that the interference I am experiencing is being picked up by the forward antenna itself? >>> >>> In surfing the web about comm antenna, I read about the importance of having good electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground. >>> >>> The electrical bonding of the antennas to the aircraft skin is best accomplished by direct metal-to metal contact of the antenna base to the aircraft skin. To accomplish this, the aircraft paint in the mounting area will need to be removed and the surface alodined to protect aluminum against corrosion. An alternate method for providing electrical bonding is through the mounting screws, which attach to a backing plate inside the aircraft skin. Remove any interior paint in the area where the backing plate is placed to assure a good ground. Coat this area with alodine to minimize corrosion. To test the electrical bonding of the blade to the aircraft, a reading of .003 ohms between the antenna base plate and ground should be achieved. >>> >>> I am using the second method and will have to check if my installation meets the .003 ohm test. If the front antenna does not meet this, would this cause a buzz or just degrade the performance of the antenna? >>> >>> Ross >>> >>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 11:45 AM >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz >>> >>> At 11:05 AM 7/17/2015, you wrote: >>> >>> Since you have ruled out external sources, it sort of points to >>> the front antenna cable. I thought you said you had tried >>> swapping cables. >>> Try removing antenna from airframe, connecting it directly to >>> radio and see if there is noise. >>> I can't explain it, but I know of one case where noise was coming >>> via ground, and isolating the antenna from ground cured the >>> problem. Perhaps a ground loop between coax shield and the >>> airframe ground. >>> >>> On 7/17/2015 7:51 AM, Ross Home wrote: >>> >>> I will try this. >>> >>> What is puzzling is that the antenna connection that leads to >>> the rear antenna is at the firewall about 18 inches and level >>> with my GX-60. I can easily unhook the GX-60 cable from the >>> front antenna (which is under the floor directly beneath the >>> GX-60) and hook it to the rear antenna connection which is at >>> the same height as the GX-60 and the noise goes away. All of >>> the wires that the GX-60 cable passes are the same in either >>> case except, when it is connected to the front antenna, it >>> crosses these wires at a 90 degree angle instead of running >>> parallel to them when it goes the rear antenna connection. >>> >>> >>> Routing of coax cables to antennas is NEVER >>> a component of received noise . . . in the >>> heavy iron we route coaxes where there is opportunity >>> and room. The whole idea behind the industry standard >>> practices for (1) limiting noise from antagonists, >>> (2) improving resistance to noise by judicious >>> design of potential victims and last (3) reducing >>> risk of over-whelming propagation path (mounting >>> an antenna under the cowl will probably pick up >>> ignition noise). When a noise coming in through >>> the receiver's antenna port is detected, placement >>> of the coax isn't even a distant finisher in the >>> quest for resolution. >>> >>> Assuming you have paid due diligence to standard practices >>> for installing the two antennas then the fact that >>> the forward-most antenna seems to be the key propagation >>> port, then the noise source is most likely forward ON >>> the aircraft. If it were off the aircraft, both >>> antennas would hear it. >>> >>> This problem has a lot in common with Col_Mustard- >>> did-it-in-the-library-with-a-rope . . . you gotta >>> gather all the clues available to you BEFORE picking >>> up hammers-n-saws . . . or screwdrivers. >>> >>> Antennas don't go BAD in a manner that makes one >>> a source of noise while others are not. They either >>> work good . . . or they don't . . . but they're never >>> 'noisy'. Start with a 'cold' panel and bring up >>> equipment one item at a time . . . then confirm >>> your preliminary findings with a sniffer receiver. >>> >>> Only THEN will hammers, saws and screwdrivers >>> contribute to resolution of the problem. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List**** >>> **** >>> **** >>> ***http://forums.matronics.com***** >>> ****** >>> ****** >>> ****** >>> ****** >>> ****http://www.matronics.com/contribution****** >>> ****** >>> ****** >>> ** >>> *D============================================= lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List D============================================= //forums.matronics.com D============================================= ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D============================================= * >>> ** >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Buzz From: "Ross Mickey (home)" I will try to rig a short antenna. As it is, I get about 6-9 inches from the EFIS to set off the sniffer (a handheld radio) Ross Mickey 541-954-7521 > On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 02:24 PM 7/19/2015, you wrote: >> >> On 7/19/2015 3:15 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: >> > I have identified that the buzz/static is coming from the new AFS 5600 >> > EFIS I just installed. >> > >> > Now what do I do? > > A number of appliances with LCD screens > were notorious radiators. I think the problems > were centered around the micro-watt dc to ac > converter used to bias up the screen. I'd not > heard of any difficulties in years . . . I > assumed that everyone had figured it out by > now . . . but apparently not. > > The fact that moving wires made difference > suggests that the noises MAY be radiated from > wire bundles as opposed to from the LCD face. > Again, the hand-held transceiver can be used > to 'sniff' around the box . . . much like you > would use a freon leak detector to find a bad > joint. You may want to make a 'special' antenna > for the hand held that is only an inch or so long > so that its not terribly efficient . . . > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Buzz From: "Ross Mickey (home)" Everything wired as shown in diagrams. My antenna on my handheld is to good so I can't differentiate wires. Ross Mickey 541-954-7521 > On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:06 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > Is the AFS 5600 EFIS wired according to the installation manual? Usually shielded cables are grounded at the source end only, but not always. Can you identify one or more wires from the AFS 5600 EFIS that are causing the noise? > Is the squelch on the com radio adjusted too sensitive? > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444951#444951 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Buzz From: Charlie England Try it with no antenna at all. If you don't get any noise that way, just stick a short piece of safety wire into the center of the antenna connector & try that. (Don't transmit. :-) ) On 7/19/2015 6:18 PM, Ross Mickey (home) wrote: > > Everything wired as shown in diagrams. My antenna on my handheld is to good so I can't differentiate wires. > > Ross Mickey > 541-954-7521 > > >> On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:06 PM, user9253 wrote: >> >> >> Is the AFS 5600 EFIS wired according to the installation manual? Usually shielded cables are grounded at the source end only, but not always. Can you identify one or more wires from the AFS 5600 EFIS that are causing the noise? >> Is the squelch on the com radio adjusted too sensitive? >> Joe >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:02 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio Buzz From: "user9253" If I dim my Dynon D-180 screen, it makes noise in the headset. I leave the screen on full bright (never fly at night) and the noise is not noticeable. Joe > A number of appliances with LCD screens > were notorious radiators. I think the problems > were centered around the micro-watt dc to ac > converter used to bias up the screen. I'd not > heard of any difficulties in years . . . I > assumed that everyone had figured it out by > now . . . but apparently not. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444958#444958 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.